Could you opine about www.adventistalternative.org?

[Umfundize]

This manuscript has now been released to our general membership with the apparent approval of the GC. Some believe, this could very well be the method the GC uses to get the church to warm up to the idea that eventually we will have to say by-by to some of the "problem doctrines" Are they using someone else to do the dirty work? Just wondering, because they NEVER said one negative word about Adventist Alternative!And if you write them with any questions for clarification: NO ANSWER!

[Windsor]

I suspect shenanigans. Why are you even mentioning this website? Why should the GC even attempt to legitimize every single wacky website with an official response? This guy looks like a high priest according to the order of Desmond Ford.

[Gibs]

Umfundize,

It would'nt surprise me at all to see the offical stand to not be with the investigative judgment and 1844 as the date beginning the time of the end and the Sanctuary doctrine. It is as you all should know "emerging church" time and so those unpopular teachings being such a sore spot to the ecumenicalism required it will no doubt be made unofficial.

The truest church structure to come out of the reformation is to be killed and is almost completed. That should do it, as the sanctuary doctrine is the foundation of SDAdventism.

When they won't stand solid to the truth, the solid foundation is removed and left upon shifting sand,

Mt 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Mt 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Umfundize]

I believe the request of the author is not to make some of the "problem doctrines" TESTS for MEMBERSHIP. Could a person be a church member if you do not believe the SDA church is THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH of Revelation and ALL OTHER Christians are children of the harlot of Revelation 17? Should the GC allow such a one to be a member, yes or no?

Could one be a member if you believe that John 5:24 tells us we CAN have the immediate assurance of salvation and if you believe that John 10:22,23 offers the correct dictum for interpreting Daniel 8:14? How many members have ever heard of the Feast of Dedication? Have YOU? Check out Wikipedia on John 10:22,23 Hannukah

[OzarkWoman]

Could a person be a church member if you do not believe the SDA church is THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH of Revelation and ALL OTHER Christians are children of the harlot of Revelation 17? Should the GC allow such a one to be a member, yes or no?

I know plenty SDA members who, like me, do not believe that the SDA church is the one and only Remnant church, but believe that many people of different types will make up the true Remnant church.

[Gibs]

Umfundize,

What good is membership anyway? Really it is worthless because of all the error being taught. Many will lose salvation over it and believe the lie. False doctrines abound not only in the SDA theology of today but the members hold to many themselves the denomination does not. It really is all mass confusion.

The true Remnant Church follow only the Truth Who is Jesus Christ and His Word. They are the "called out ones".

Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Where would we go, some may ask. Answer, To Him and Him only! Hear Him and Hear Him Only!,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Gibs, membership was a big thing too in the days of Christ and the temple (which represented the church with its organization) was everything to the Jews and those who composed the Sanhedrin (general conference of that day) were very feared. Often the words were heard, "The temple, the temple, the temple" and yet the people did not discern the true temple, the true church, the soul temple.

The message of Rev.18:1-5 is not yet present truth and won't be until the sins of Babylon the Great have reached unto heaven and that won't be until the law of God is made void in the land through the enactment of the Sunday law. This is clearly stated in the SoP.

sky

[Gibs]

Yes membership in a structure of men where so much error is being taught and forced home to the soul is worthless as unless the Presence of the High and Holy One is there you do not have Church.

Yes Sky on Babylon the Great I am seeing she is just about to the summit and will be very shortly and she takes in far more than most realize. The Papacy is just a small piece of her. Old and new Babylon are really one and the whole world almost is of her. In ways the churches have already made void His Holy Law, making it of no effect or consequence, so it cannot to far off to the decree of it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Yes of course, Babylon the Great at the time when the message goes forth that it is fallen takes in all of the churches including the professed church of Christ if she resists the second and final invitation to receive the light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory. This is to take place prior to the loud cry to the world.

The first call of the parable to the Jewish church was given before the crucifixion by the 12 and 70 and it was rejected as predicted in the parable. See C.O.L.308. The Jewish church rejected the second call of the parable which began at Pentecost and which was followed by a great persecution (Acts 8:1) and which ended by the stoning of Stephen in A.D.34. By this the Jewish church sealed her rejection of God's mercy and the call was extended to the Gentiles represented by the third call of the parable of Matt.22. So this shows that there is a time of probation for the professed church of Christ.

If I understand it correctly the parable of Matt.22 applies to us as a people since 1844. The first call of the parable came between 1888 and 1901 and we know that it was resisted just as the parable predicted it would be. There is a crucifixion between this first call and the second call to the Adventist church. It is the crucifixion of the messages that God had entrusted to us. This took place between 1955 and 1957. We are now living in time of the second call to the Adventist church. If we are to believe the parable, this second call will be rejected as the first call was but this time there will be a great persecution and the bearers of the message will be forced to turn to the world and the message will swell into the loud cry, the third call of the parable.

According to the parable, at the end of the third call which is at the end of the loud cry, the King comes in to examine the guests. This is the investigative judgment of the living taking place at the time of the great final test. This great final test (death decree) will separate the good from the bad, the wheat from the tares, the wise from the foolish, and their destiny will be forever fixed.

The wise will become the 144,000 who will receive the final seal and will be prepared to go through the time of Jacob's trouble. At the time of the fifth plague they will be delivered from the execution of the death decree. This is when the time of Jacob's trouble ends but the great time of trouble for the wicked will continue. The sixth plague is the wicked turning on each other followed by the hail and the great earthquake, the special resurrection and the coming of Christ in the clouds of Heaven.

What say you?

sky :)

[skyblue888]

I meant to write: The sixth plague is the wicked turning on each other followed by the hail and the great earthquake, the translation of the 144,00, the special and general resurrections, and the coming of Christ in the clouds of Heaven.

[Umfundize]

What say you about John 10:22,23? Some believe Matt 22, Dan 8:14, Rev 12:17. etc. is EXCLUSIVELY for SDA's ("the ONLY true remnant"). Ever thought of what it meant in the year 1250? Nothing? People had to wait patiently for the SDA church to be born? Because those verses ONLY can be applied to SDA?

EGW used some of these verses to admonish members that you could "loose your eternal life" if you doubt the platform of the central pillar of SDA faith: the Investigative Judgment.

[Gibs]

The SDA church reform movement was the furthest reaching into reform of all of them but began to degrade before the job was done and in later yrs has fallen away badly and at present is not much greater in reform than all the rest. There has always been a true Remnant and these are the ones who follow only Jesus Christ and His Word.

Where two or three are gathered and He is worshipped in Spirit and in Truth, He is present in the midst there, and here is the Remnant. In Spirit and Truth is the MUST! If not He will not smell in the assembly. His Spirit, Divine Nature must be in the worshippers and the Truth taught as when error is taught He will not be in the midst.

The Spirit, He must be there,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

"And He will shew you things to come". Now do you see why the prophecies are not discerned but by the very few?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

So is "Adventist Alternative" your personal website or are you just one of the guy's disciples, umfundize. Also, could you explain what your nickname is supposed to mean?

[skyblue888]

I was hoping that you guys would comment on my last post re: the parable of Matt.22 which I believe is present truth for our time for when Jesus spoke this parable and other parables as well, He was looking down the ages with His eye fixed upon our time. He spoke in parables more for our time than for the Jews. The parable began to be enacted on the 22nd of October, 1844 as He went from the Holy to the Most Holy place of the sanctuary above, to the wedding and the parable is about the wedding garment.

In the book The Great Controversy, p.428, first paragraph, Mrs. White mentions this parable in that context and the parable of the ten virgins, of course.

I believe we need to understand where we are in the unrolling of the prophetic scroll as delineated in these parables.

sky

[Gibs]

Yes Sky, From what I see today as in the parable the requirments to be in the wedding is being made light of and are turning away. What makes up the wedding garment is made light of and so is not made up but only presumed to be.

The truth isn't esteemed, knowing not the scriptures, presuption will never come to the measure of the truth.

"The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the church is looked forward to as in the future; but it is the privilege of the church to have it now. Seek for it, pray for it, believe for it. We must have it, and Heaven is waiting to bestow it.--Review and Herald, March 19, 1895. {Ev 701.2}

The Latter Rain.--Let Christians . . . ask in faith for the promised blessing, and it will come. The outpouring of the Spirit in the days of the apostles was the former rain, and glorious was the result. But the latter rain will be more abundant.--Signs of the Times, Feb. 17, 1914. {Ev 701.3}

"God can make them a host against their enemies. Ye give up too quick. Ye let go too soon, that arm! The arm of God is mighty. Satan works in different ways to steal the mind off from God. Victory, victory! We must have it over every wrong. A solemn sinking into God. Get ready. Set thine house in order." {GCDB, February 7, 1893 par. 2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Very good. Excellent quotes!

So you agree that we are in the time of the second call of the parable?

That if the church rejects this last message of mercy and persecutes the bearers of that message, probation will close upon her and the bearers of that message will turn to the world and it will swell to the loud cry and at the end of the loud cry the great final test (death decree) will separate the good from the bad (judgment of the living at the end of the third call of the parable which is the loud cry, the King comes into the room to examine the guests).

How is that?

sky

[Stan]

not that awfully impressed with the website. almost like the GC should stop whatever that are doing and listen to him.

People leaving the Church in droves? Really? There is on the average 200,000 people a year leaving for various reasons, there are about 1,000,000 joining a year, according to an article in the Salt Lake City Triubune a few years ago, my the Mormons, we have the highest average retention of all Churches and 80% average over 5 years.

I quite frankly get tired of theologians or their clones, who say "Everyone pay attention to me" I will pay attention to those who are winning souls to Christ and not viewing their mission as retreating on where we have learned in the past.

[skyblue888]

Winning souls to Christ, absolutely. But God's initial burden is for His professed people. Before we go to the world to proclaim the last message, we must ourselves be won to Christ. We are in the Laodicean condition, without Christ. So what are we to do? We are to seek for an understanding of the message that God has for us in this last time. By going back to the years between 1888 and 1901 we can find what that message is. And when we see what that message is we are to receive it, believe it, and act upon it. And then we will be prepared to win souls to Christ, first within our own ranks and then in the world.

But I agree with you, Stan, that there are many discordant voices. However, we are told that "amid the confusing cries will be borne a special testimony, a special message of truth appropriate for this time, which message is to be received, believed, and acted upon," as Mrs. White stated in commenting upon the last message to be given to the church and to the world. (7 B.C.984)

sky

[Gibs]

Wining members into the denomination isn't the big thing, the big thing is that The TRUE saving Gospel be Preached into all the world.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Umfundize]

I am a person who can think for himself and am on the review board of a SDA institution. This document was studied by most leading SDA scholars and theologians and not one position can be refuted from Scripture alone. Can YOU? Let us hear.

So, yes, I am a disciple of TRUTH!

[Umfundize]

And, Umfundize is Zulu for "preacher"!

[skyblue888]

Wining members into the denomination isn't the big thing, the big thing is that The TRUE saving Gospel be Preached into all the world.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Within our ranks first, then to the world.

sky

[skyblue888]

Unfundize, Can you summarize that paper for us? Is it something than can done easily?

sky

[Umfundize]

Sky:

The best way to go about this is to listen to an 8 minute or so spoken intro. The idea is that the SDA church ought to be tolerent to members who have changed their minds on some of the doctrines. Could they still be members IF they do not believe ALL the requirements of the Baptismal certificate? The author believes many who left the church through the years could be motivated to come back and the critics will be robbed of fodder to use against the church. Very good, VERIFIABLE statistics, excellent presentation on topics such as Godhead, Comforter, Salvation, Judgment, and a unique take on "no one goes to heaven" and the Millennium, which is right now under review in some circles. Also a stunning observation on John 10:22,23. Dr. Barkhuizen is obviously not a Fordite and speaks AS an SDA! Same author wrote The Fourth Dilemma, which was a best-seller for Review&Herald in 2009. This can be downloaded, I believe, from the site. Shalom!

[Windsor]

I quite frankly get tired of theologians or their clones, who say "Everyone pay attention to me" I will pay attention to those who are winning souls to Christ and not viewing their mission as retreating on where we have learned in the past.

I agree. I'm more impressed with those who bring non Christians into the church rather than trying to make current Adventists more like them.