Could you opine about www.adventistalternative.org?

[Samie]

This thread deals with the concepts postulated in Adventist Alternative. You will notice in the Manuscript a chapter "No One Goes To Heaven". You may want to look at the exegesis of John 14:1-3. And a special insight into the Millennium.

[Windsor]

This thread deals with the concepts postulated in Adventist Alternative. You will notice in the Manuscript a chapter "No One Goes To Heaven". You may want to look at the exegesis of John 14:1-3. And a special insight into the Millennium.

It sounds more and more like 'non Adventist alternative' the more I hear about it.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

>>Where else could they be spending that time except in Heaven for when Jesus comes the second time the saints will be meeting Him in the air (1 Thess.4:16,17)<<

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Umm, nowhere in these texts is found the suggestion that having met the Lord in the air - the saints are then heaven-bound.

>>Actually it suggests exactly that. Sure makes a lot more sense...<<

Sometimes, "sense" is not as we wish it, but is as Writ states it.

>>Sure makes a lot more sense than God giving us a pogo stick to hop up in the clouds only to immediately fall back down. That's nonsense.<<

But that is exactly what you imply Gd and the saints do - instead, using a heavenly bungie... Wheee, down they comes - and wheee, up they goes!

>>"In my Father's house are many rooms;<<

Indeed, the tried and tired text of my mention. "In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (Jn 14:2)

In the House of Judah there is the house of David (which though important, probably does not measure up to what mansion implies) and within the house of David there are the other houses - the house of Windsor, the house of Stuart, the house of Hanover, etc - not castles, not dwelling places, not abodes; rather, all kingly and noble [metaphoric] 'houses'.

Ipso..., in Gd's House there are many large and grand 'Mansions' - metaphoric Houses of other peoples/beings of Gd's Kingdom. Jesus Christ went "to prepare a place" for us (earthlings therein the Father's House - not rooms, not dwellings or abodes limited to a geographical 'place' or locale - but a rank; a social standing; a station; status, condition; - for us - The House of Earth, which will be the grandest mansion of all within the Father's House.

>>Notice that Jesus states He is going to His Father's house to prepare us a place.<<

Indeed. The metaphoric term (Strong's) used for the legitimate condition/standing of those of earth whom He redeemed.

>>And then He states He is coming back from that place to take us to where He is, His Father's house, not here on Earth. He isn't coming back to take us to where we already are.<<

Rather, He is coming to receive us unto Himself - as legitimately endowed co-inheritors with Him. All things in heaven and earth are given Him - and we inherit with Him - all things - even unto judging the matters of angels.

Jn 14:3 ...I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Rom 8:17 ...heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

That is what is being/has been legitimized in Gd's House among the many Mansions.

>>To me, there is no clearer text in scripture as to where the 1000 years will take place.<<

Indeed, should that 'one-and-only' text satisfy. However, one is then left with an entire catalog of texts that can only find their fulfillment in a millennial earth.

That is yet, without parsing "to meet the Lord in the air:" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

[Windsor]

First of all, a 1000 year long bungie jump wouldn't work very well. Secondly, way to spiritualize away a non symbolic text. He is going somewhere (His Father's house - not exactly down the street from us) to bring us back to where He is. That's what the text says. You can't twist your way out of that.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Umfundize

So, AFTER the passing of EGW, we should not expect ANY NEW LIGHT? Because we already HAVE all the light? That is what the Jehovah's and Mormons also believe. Are we afraid to TEST ANY DOCTRINE by the BIBLE? And are we willing to make any adjustments IF we discover we made a mistake? Like the PIONEERS had done so many times?

Again, no offense, but, if I may ask, Are you and Samie familiar with topix.com? I think you both would have a better chance there to share your "new light."

New light from the Lord does not do away with the old. It builds on it.

sky

Exactly sky,

[jasd]

>>First of all, a 1000 year long bungie jump wouldn't work very well.<<

It would as well as a pogo stick hop to the clouds.

>>Secondly, way to spiritualize away a non symbolic text.<<

Oh, okaayyy, so one who always spoke in couched and parabolic language is here speaking in non-symbolic terminology?--we know that of a certainty?--and just how do we know that of a certainty?

Legitimate questions..., as there are any number of texts that can be fulfilled only within the parameters of a millennial earth; whereas, there is only the one tired text to 'prove' a heavenly millennial reign.

>>He is going somewhere (His Father's house - not exactly down the street from us) to bring us back to where He is.<<

"Back to where He is?" Non, non, text says:

Jn 14:3 ...I will come again, and receive you unto myself;

The text does not say the Jesus Christ is taking anybody back anywhere; rather, that wherever He is, we will be also. Does that mean that, literally, Jesus Christ is constrained in His movements by an attached assembly of saints?--absolutely not, text is simply referencing a truism - that we co-inherit with Him.

"that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

>>That's what the text says. You can't twist your way out of that.<<

As memory serves..., there are only four (mebbe five) occasions upon which the phrase 'to meet' are used in the Greek NT. They establish context and precedent for its use. Each and together, that established is the meaning of meeting to greet and to escort back to the environs of a point of origin; as do the redeemed who are caught up 'to meet' the Lord in the air.

They are the Noble House of Earth.

One imagines that Gd is not slack where protocols re the Son of Gd, Priest and King of all that is within heaven and earth are concerned - and there is absolutely no need to twist when sourcing Writ.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

...

New light from the Lord does not do away with the old. It builds on it.

sky

Exactly sky,

The problem is what was considered as "old light" was NEVER a light in the first place. And "new light" must not be be built on what was erroneously perceived as "old light".

[Umfundize]

You must be surprized to see that more than 3000 already took a peak at this thread, and we can assume, then downloaded Adventist Alternative!

I do not think it is another matter of "how to win souls by MY method", but rather an attempt to PREVENT more members to leave the church.

The idea being promulgated is to be tolerant of those who do not find everything we believe spelled out in the Bible.

Plus a few alternative insights to explore.

I do not see any ill-intent in the Manuscript, but rather a sincere invitation to dialogue.

[Gibs]

Thing is who is in His Church and who is not? Church is only when He is Present in the midst thereof. Where would that be? Well it could be under a huge oak or under a protruding rock like one place I know of here and many meetings have been held there, even camp meetings in older days.

Well you all, He must be worshipped in Spirit, because He is Spirit. He must be worshipped in truth because nothing else is acceptable or He will not be present and you do not have Church.

A building don't make it a "Church", a ordained preacher of men don't make it a "Church", a denomination gathering don't make it a "Church".

Only "HIS" Presence in it makes it "Church"! Church can be held anywhere and don't need a denominational preacher in it to be church, but any He chooses to stand up and speak and it may be more than one in that gathering together of the saints.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Umfundize]

Again, I want to strongly plead with the readers of this thread to actually DOWNLOAD Adventist Alternative and read the Manuscript YOURSELF...and then opine. Thanks!

[Samie]

Again, I want to strongly plead with the readers of this thread to actually DOWNLOAD Adventist Alternative and read the Manuscript YOURSELF...and then opine. Thanks!

Yeah, I already had, and had started a thread to refute some of its major points.

[Umfundize]

And how many have you "refuted" so far". Any word from you about who the Holy Spirit is? Did you refute that position? Did you read the part referring to Hymn #73? Holy,Holy,Holy? Do you deny that?

[Samie]

And how many have you "refuted" so far". Any word from you about who the Holy Spirit is? Did you refute that position? Did you read the part referring to Hymn #73? Holy,Holy,Holy? Do you deny that?

I only refute what is biblically unfounded. You have read that thread, I guess. What prevents you from posting your objection to what I had so far posted?

[Umfundize]

Did you , ipso facto, read the entire Adventist Alternative? What say you about the chapter "No One Goes To Heaven"?

[Umfundize]

Almost 5000 viewed this thread. Remarkable! But we want you to opine, share with us what you likesd and/or disliked about Adventist Alternative.

[Umfundize]

The GC apprently just sent out a warning to Dr. Barkhuizen that he could be prosecuted for using the name ADVENTIST in his Web-address (very much like Clubadventist,com!) The attorney at the GC dealing with this is SAUNDERS. How sad that the worldly judges must see our dirty laundry.

[olger]

Pieter Barkhukizen is the man who led me to the Adventist Message. 1986.

Sad to see him turn against the doctrines that he explained so well.

G

[Umfundize]

Do you appreciate the HONESTY of Dr Pieter? Or do you prefer that he violate his own self?

The Christian thing would be to tell him where he is wrong. Agree? NO ONE could refute his (and many other Conference Evangelist, Professors, Administrators, who went to the GC before him)positions from Scripture ALONE. Did you ever read The Clear Word SDA Bible?

Many SDA's NO LONGER believe in an Investigative Judgment, when "names will be accepted and names will be rejected" and no one knows "when your name comes up", and that EGW is "of higher order than the Bible writers".. What do YOU expect a minister to do when he discovers that he was teaching the wrong doctrines? Say nothing for the sake of the pay-check? Do you think it is easy to do what Dr Pieter did?

Thousands of Adventist have joined this INHOUSE Reform Movement. Look at this thread and see how many took a peek at Adventist Alternative! The Truth is Marching on!

[Umfundize]

And say Hi to your friend in Knoxville!

[Samie]

Do you appreciate the HONESTY of Dr Pieter? Or do you prefer that he violate his own self?

The Christian thing would be to tell him where he is wrong. Agree? NO ONE could refute his (and many other Conference Evangelist, Professors, Administrators, who went to the GC before him)positions from Scripture ALONE.

...

I had posted where he went wrong. The sad thing is, although I agree with him about the Investigative Judgment, the Trinity, and the earthly Millennium, yet my refutation on his view about the gospel and that it will again be preached to billions during the millennium, the unbiblical position that no one goes to heaven, end-time prophecies relative to the abomination of desolation all remained unanswered. Reason why I opted not to add some more refutations until the first ones are all addressed.

My question is, Dr Pieter wanted his position addressed, but why can't he address the refutation of his views? He wanted truth and nothing but the truth, so what prevents him from addressing the refutation of what he perceives as truth?

[Umfundize]

Samie:

You are brave to openly admit that you agree with some MAJOR positions. I have just read Adventist Alternative again and noticed that the author indeed offered Biblical alternatives. You must remember that we are dealing here with matters of INTERPRETATION ..of which there are different "schools".

About No One Goes To Heaven: this is a simple matter of exegesis. JESUS SAID no one goes to heaven! And the interpretration of John 14:1-3 is hermaneutically sound. If you have a problem with Enoch and Elijah, do some research and Google: Did Enoch and Elijah really go to heaven? There will be a number of responses which you might find interesting to analize.

About the gospel offering during the Millennium to those who NEVER HAD A FIRST OPPORTUNITY to hear it. Please read the position again. IF God wants to give ALL people an equal opportunity to hear the gospel, and only JESUS is the truth and the life, then, in order to be saved, sinners MUST UNDERSTAND THAT in order to make a sober decision.

Every day 150k people die all over the world. Of those only about 10% ever heard the gospel. What about the others? Too bad they were born in China or India? Babies who died at 6 mths of age heard the gospel? Not so! THAT is what the Millennium is for! Shalom!

[Nic Samojluk]

The message of Rev.18:1-5 is not yet present truth and won't be until the sins of Babylon the Great have reached unto heaven and that won't be until the law of God is made void in the land through the enactment of the Sunday law. This is clearly stated in the SoP.

We need to remember that Ellen White also warned the church about the danger of it becoming a “sister to Babylon” when she was still alive:

“We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors' wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?” {TSB 188.3}

The infiltration of adultery into the church prompted her to predict that this could result in our church becoming a “sister to Babylon.” My question is: What would she say today knowing that the church she help found has been profiting from the violation of the Sixth

Commandment and that the country she loved and cared for has so far deprived 55 million of innocent unborn babies of life? Do you think that Sunday Law is more relevant to the Lord than the merciless killing of innocent human beings?

We need to heed everything Ellen White has written, instead of picking only those statements which agree with our preconceptions.

[Nic Samojluk]

Babylon the Great will not be fallen until her sins have reached unto heaven and that won't happen until the law of God is made void in the land by the enactment of the Sunday law through the union of church and state.

How about the union of church and state on the violation of the Sixth Comandment instead of the Fourth?

Is worshipping the Lord on the wrong day of the week a worse offense against God than the killing of innocent unborn children even inside Adventist hospitals for the sake of profit?

[Nic Samojluk]

Gibs wrote:

“Will she buckle on the Sabbath, we will see in a few years or less it appears, when if she does will you have any doubt?”

The past might be a reasonable predictor about the future. The Adventist Church did fail the test in Hitler’s Germany. Adventists did compromise on the Sabbath and on the violation of the Sixth Commandment; our church leaders also failed the moral test in Rwanda when our Adventist brethren did participate in the killing on their own fellow believers; and our church did also fail the moral test in the U.S. in 1970 regarding abortion, which is a direct violation of one of God’s Commandments.

Do you think that this is a good preparation for being faithful to God when the Sabbath will again test the Adventist resolve to be faithful to the Lord’s demands though the heaven’s fall?

“She has taken several steps to be in union with church and state”

Yes, she did agree with the State that killing innocent unborn children is no big thing, and we have profited from engaging in this lucrative business.

Here is what Billy Graham wrote about this issue:

“CHARLOTTE, North Carolina, July 27, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) – In a public letter, famed evangelist Billy Graham wonders whether America could be facing a punishment comparable to Sodom and Gomorrah if the nation fails to repent of its moral degradation, including the 50 million legal abortions committed since Roe v. Wade. …”

Billy Graham: If God smote Sodom, what does that mean for an America that aborts millions?

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/billy-g...aily+Newsletter

[Nic Samojluk]

Lysimachus wrote:

“It doesn't matter how one cuts it, slices it, or dices it, the 2300 evening-mornings terminate in 1844. No matter how much you may try manipulate the math, it always ends up terminating on that date.

Don't like the IJ doctrine of 1844? Deal with the fact that the 2300 days ends on October 22, 1844, and now provide us an alternative. The only "figment" alternative in your mind can exist if you reject the fact that the 2300 days do not end in 1844.

No matter how much one dislikes the IJ doctrine, the 2300 days ending in 1844 is NOT going to go away.”

Here is one alternative interpretation of Daniel 8:14 which ends not in 1844 but rather in 1967 when Israel defeated the combined Arab forces bent on the destruction of the Jewish state.

Such an alternative interpretation was advanced by a theologian who lived several centuries ago and was a close relative of Isaac Newton.

He suggested that we need to look for the beginning of the 2300 prophetic days in the same chapter. In chapter 8 we find the description of a battle between Alexander the Great and the forces of Medo-Persia.

This battle took place at Granicus in 334 BC. Why go elsewhere for the beginning of the 2300 days prophecy if we find a suitable date in chapter 8? Daniel was concerned about his own Jewish people—not Adventists!