Could you opine about www.adventistalternative.org?

[Umfundize]

Frances and Friends is part of the Jimmy Swaggart Ministry. In fact, his wife, is Frances. They had a series on different religions and cults. On June 5,6 and 7 they talked about SDA and members could call in. Some indeed called and made fools of themselves!

They show the actual documents that caused SDA to be branded a cult, as well as the recommendations by the GC and a Union Conference President, recommending The Clear Word Bible. Very honest presentation and they do produce the facts.

This will give you a good idea of how we are being PERCEIVED by other Christians. What can we do about it? Perhaps read Adventist Alternative.

[Naomi]

Quote:

This will give you a good idea of how we are being PERCEIVED by other Christians. What can we do about it? Perhaps read Adventist Alternative.

To be honest, I am more concerned about how we/myself are preceived by God than other peoples.

[Umfundize]

Yes, but IF we believe the SDA church IS the ONLY true church of Revelation, then THAT CHURCH must be "without spot or wrinkle"! Is that how the SDA church is viewed by others?

[Gibs]

It's the true ones of Him that make up His Church. They are scattered throughout the world in the structures of men called churches and denominations. They see they can only follow Him as He alone is their Shepherd. They know him by a certain quality of His voice, THE TRUTH!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Umfundize]

Gibs: I agree with you 100% and I wish we could all focus more on the cross and the forgiveness of all of our sins and guilt. So sad the petty things the churches have ADDED (church polity) It has turned many off from ANY church. Thanks!

[Windsor]

The information presented here is about as alternative to Adventism as Catholicism or even Islam is. This alternative bears no resemblance to Seventh-day Adventism whatsoever so I don't know why the Adventist church seems to be the main attack focus.

[Gerr]

Overaged:

The problem is that NO ONE can take the BIBLE and defend the Investigative Judgment! The SDA church is the ONLY church on earth who believe in this doctrine of investigating saved sinners' WORKS! It is NOT Biblical and many of the LEADERS would love to do away with it. However, then they have to drop EGW who CONFIRMED this schemed out doctrine of Crosier et al.

You simply CANNOT refute the positions Dr Barkhuizen advanced without the help of our sister.

If you can, please share your insights. The truth is that most SDA doctrines come from the Bible PLUS Ellen White. What some scholars are doing is to see what the BIBLE ALONE has to say! The Clear Word Bible is a classic example of how SDA's MIX the Bible with the writings of EGW. THIS has caused mainline Christianity to label SDA as Cult of the YEAR!

SDA doctrines CANNOT stand on the WORD ALONE! Have you ACTUALLY read what Dr Barky had to say about John 10:22,23? Do you know, right now, what the Feast of Dedication is? If not, then you may want to ACTUALLY read Adventist Alternative...and be helped, like I was.

Friend, I have been studying the IJ on & off for several decades now. The more I study it, the more convinced I become that if we didn't have such a doctrine, we would have to invent it! This subject has been discussed over & over in this forum. Why don't you search the archives?

I don't know of one SDA doctrine that cannot be supported from the Bible ALONE!!!

The Feast of Dedication was NOT a divinely instituted feast. Oh, how easily some people are moved from the truth everytime some guy comes along with a so-called "new light!"

No wonder why Jesus emphasized over and over, "See that no one leads you astray!!!"

[Umfundize]

But JESUS kept the Feast of Dedication! Of course it was not "divinely instituted" That's just the point! Judas Macabeus instituted it AFTER he RESTORED THE TEMPLE to its rightfull condition as was prophecied in Daniel 8:14 ! We CANNOT jump from Dan 8:14 right into the Most Holy Place in heaven and, at the same time come up with the precise date: Oct 22,1844!

I truly hope that readers will ACTUALLY visit www.adventistalternative.org Listen to the 8 min intro and then check out the manuscript that is today one of the hottest issues under discussion with pastors.

Or you can simply Google: Wikipedia on John 10:22,23 hanukkah. Neither the Bible or EGW has anything further to say about the Feast of Dedication. But JESUS observed it, so it MUST have some significance. The JEWS have been keeping it for the past 2000 YEARS! Any Rabbi will tell you it fulfills the prophecy of Dan 8:14.

WHY may we not accept the FACTS? Could it be that we will then be forced to let go of Sister White who "had a vision" after she heard possible explanations for Miller's failed date-setting? May we be honest about this? Or should we get the spin-meisters to tell us what to believe?

[CoAspen]

Christ wore long robes...wore sandals or went barefoot...rode a donkey...slept under the stars...gathered food out of a field.....do you???????

[Umfundize]

That has NOTHING to do with the subject of Hanukkah!

I can only imagine what would happen if the almost 8000 viewers of this thread ACTUALLY were to take a look at www.adventistalternative.org and pass the link on to friends and family.

It will be a new day and the SDA church will grow exponentially when the laity forces the GC to open their ears and do what most of them believe SHOULD BE DONE= adopt the truth and initiatives proposed in Adventist Alternative.

Like a bad cold, this will NOT easily go away!

[phkrause]

Friend, I have been studying the IJ on & off for several decades now. The more I study it, the more convinced I become that if we didn't have such a doctrine, we would have to invent it! This subject has been discussed over & over in this forum. Why don't you search the archives?

I don't know of one SDA doctrine that cannot be supported from the Bible ALONE!!!

The Feast of Dedication was NOT a divinely instituted feast. Oh, how easily some people are moved from the truth everytime some guy comes along with a so-called "new light!"

No wonder why Jesus emphasized over and over, "See that no one leads you astray!!!"

[CoAspen]

You are absolutely correct......but you still don't get the picture!!

What you are posting about has nothing todo with what followers of Christ are to be doing either!!!!!!

[Gerr]

But JESUS kept the Feast of Dedication! Of course it was not "divinely instituted" That's just the point! Judas Macabeus instituted it AFTER he RESTORED THE TEMPLE to its rightfull condition as was prophecied in Daniel 8:14 ! We CANNOT jump from Dan 8:14 right into the Most Holy Place in heaven and, at the same time come up with the precise date: Oct 22,1844!

I truly hope that readers will ACTUALLY visit www.adventistalternative.org Listen to the 8 min intro and then check out the manuscript that is today one of the hottest issues under discussion with pastors.

Or you can simply Google: Wikipedia on John 10:22,23 hanukkah. Neither the Bible or EGW has anything further to say about the Feast of Dedication. But JESUS observed it, so it MUST have some significance. The JEWS have been keeping it for the past 2000 YEARS! Any Rabbi will tell you it fulfills the prophecy of Dan 8:14.

WHY may we not accept the FACTS? Could it be that we will then be forced to let go of Sister White who "had a vision" after she heard possible explanations for Miller's failed date-setting? May we be honest about this? Or should we get the spin-meisters to tell us what to believe?

Facts? What facts? How many days/years from 457 BC to the institution of the Feast of Dedication?

Obviously, you did not catch what CoAspen meant. If Jesus were living in America today, He would probably be observing July 4 and Thanksgiving. What would that mean?

457 BC is a firmly established date. No matter how you cut it, 1844 is an inescabable date.

[Umfundize]

NOTHING of ANY significance happened on Oct 22, 1844 ! Not even in the CATHOLIC ranks! Check the historical record.

There is a difference when you believe in the DAY/YEAR application, which Dr Ford conclusively refuted and most SDA scholars reject today.

Simply read the explanation in Adventist Alternative, that provides PROOF that Antiochus and Judas Mac fulfilled Dan 8:14.

ALL the Protestant scholars (except some SDA) are in agreement that the prophecies of Daniel pertains to EVENTS TRANSPIRING ON THIS EARTH! (pardon the shouting!)

[Gerr]

If you accept Hanukkah as the fulfillment of Dan 8:14, you must have swallowed the line also that Antiochus Epimanes was the little horn of Dan 8?

[Umfundize]

Yes, you are correct. I first did the research and then I swallowed! Do you believe the little horn of Dan 7 is the SAME little horn of Dan 8?

[Gerr]

NOTHING of ANY significance happened on Oct 22, 1844 ! Not even in the CATHOLIC ranks! Check the historical record.

There is a difference when you believe in the DAY/YEAR application, which Dr Ford conclusively refuted and most SDA scholars reject today.

Simply read the explanation in Adventist Alternative, that provides PROOF that Antiochus and Judas Mac fulfilled Dan 8:14.

ALL the Protestant scholars (except some SDA) are in agreement that the prophecies of Daniel pertains to EVENTS TRANSPIRING ON THIS EARTH! (pardon the shouting!)

Yeah, the Protestants of today are no longer protestants. They have abandoned the historic protestant stand/interpretation on many issues. The Catholic counter-reformation has done a very good job in defflecting the fingers pointing to them as the antichrist and the destruction they have done to Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary. Daniel's prophecies ONLY pertain to events transpiring on earth? The kindest word I can use for that notion is "naive"! As Paul said, we are the theater of the universe. What is taking place here is affecting the entire cosmos! Do you believe there is a heavenly sanctuary?

In fulfillment of the type of Lev 16, the antitypical service in the second phase of the heavenly services took place in 1844.

Most SDA scholars reject it? Have you taken a poll? We must know different scholars! I listened to Ford at LLU probably about 15-20 yrs ago. I asked him when Jesus makes the determination as to who is wheat and who is tare, and his response was a mini-judgment on His way to earth or just before He comes!

Do you believe there is/will be a judgment? It was God himself who commanded that an INVESTIGATION be done before rendering a verdict. Not only that, He also requires 2 or 3 witnesses! Read Gen 3 & 18 and see how God operates before rendering a verdict. Why does God keep records? Jesus said, not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord," will enter His kingdom. Would you not want to know why if your godly father is not in the kingdom and Hitler is in? If you are assured of your salvation, why are you so afraid of the IJ? Are you afraid that when you are weighed in the balances, you'll be found wanting?

[Gerr]

Yes, you are correct. I first did the research and then I swallowed! Do you believe the little horn of Dan 7 is the SAME little horn of Dan 8?

Okay, show us the result of your research and I am quite confident that there are several in this forum who can show the result of their own research that Antiochus can NEVER be the little horn of Dan 8.

No, the little horn of Dan 7 is not the same as the little horn of Dan 8, but I believe there is an overlap as to whom they represent. I personally see the little horn of Dan 7 as papal Rome, whereas the little horn of Dan 8 represents Rome in its pagan and papal phases.

[Gerr]

Quote:

ALL the Protestant scholars (except some SDA) are in agreement that the prophecies of Daniel pertains to EVENTS TRANSPIRING ON THIS EARTH! (pardon the shouting!)

They are also nearly unanimous in believing a secret rapture, eternally burning hell, & Sabbath to Sunday switch. Do you believe all these, preacher?

Still waiting for you to bring out your "research".

[Umfundize]

Instead of using the space here to explain my research, I want to ask you to ACTUALLY download and read Adventist Alternative.(what this thread is all about) My research CONFIRMED Dr Barky's research.

You will also find there the REASON why Daniel confined his prophecies to EARTHLY events! The cosmic-interchanges, when he had glimpses of what God and angels were doing in heaven, does not mean Dan 8:14 descibes a "heavenly event".

By the way, have you EVER changed your mind on a position you previously held? As you study, always ask the question: which position makes MOST SENSE? And is confirmed by impressions from the Holy Spirit?

And to answer your question about how I would feel if any of my family members "did not make it", I personally TRUST the judgment of God! I also do not believe I we will EVER think about "lost family" on the New Earth. That would be too painfull. No, I am not interested in the details of others who committed the same sins I commit daily. The ONLY difference would be that some have ACCEPTED forgiveness and other REJECTED forgiveness (the gospel). Only ONE BOOK is significant: the Lamb's Book of Life!

[Gerr]

Instead of using the space here to explain my research, I want to ask you to ACTUALLY download and read Adventist Alternative.(what this thread is all about) My research CONFIRMED Dr Barky's research.

Well, my research has confirmed the church's doctrines many times over, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, I might add.

I doubt that there is anything in there I haven't seen in the last 40 yrs. I could just give you references to books you can read to refute this so-called "research", if you are interested.

Quote:

You will also find there the REASON why Daniel confined his prophecies to EARTHLY events! The cosmic-interchanges, when he had glimpses of what God and angels were doing in heaven, does not mean Dan 8:14 descibes a "heavenly event".

Where is the judgment scene of Dan 7 taking place?

Quote:

By the way, have you EVER changed your mind on a position you previously held? As you study, always ask the question: which position makes MOST SENSE? And is confirmed by impressions from the Holy Spirit?

Yes, I have changed my position. I was raised a Catholic. I also dropped out of the church for a while but came back to it. I found SDA theology to be the most logically consistent interpretation of Scripture. God has many people in ALL the churches, yes, but show me one church that is teaching/preaching the truths in the Bible and I will promptly join it.

Quote:

And to answer your question about how I would feel if any of my family members "did not make it", I personally TRUST the judgment of God! I also do not believe I we will EVER think about "lost family" on the New Earth. That would be too painfull. No, I am not interested in the details of others who committed the same sins I commit daily. The ONLY difference would be that some have ACCEPTED forgiveness and other REJECTED forgiveness (the gospel). Only ONE BOOK is significant: the Lamb's Book of Life!

So everybody is saved?

ESV | ‎2 Co 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

‎‎ESV | ‎Re 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

ESV | ‎Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Tell me how He can do that without checking out the records. The God I believe in is a God of openness.

[Umfundize]

Does SDA eschatology make ANY provision for the BILLIONS who never heard the gospel in their lifetime? Or are they all just saved "unknowingly"? or, like EGW says about the slaves, "they will just be like they never existed"? When did the 6 month old child who died yesterday in India hear the gospel?

Why not actually READ the BIBLICAL position about the coming EARTHLY MILLENNIUM in Ad ventist Alternative? And show from the BIBLE (not EGW) where the position is wrong. It cannot be done!

The coming Earthly Millennium was at the CORE of Jesus' preaching. Read all the red letters in Matthew and see for yourself. THAT takes care of the problem! THAT will be the time of the greatest evangelistic crusade ever! Rev 5:10

Would you MIND IF it happens that way? And others can be saved also? Would you MIND?

[Umfundize]

No reply on previous post?

May we then assume we agree with the position postulated in Adventist Alternative? Which makes most sense to this reader!

[Stan]

No it means no one is interested.

[Stan]

If your goal here is to drive people away from adventism, best to go elsewhere.

This was not set up for a freebee for you to do such.