Could you opine about www.adventistalternative.org?

[Nic Samojluk]

How does this group view abortions being conducted at SDA medical facilities?

Excellent question! Will someone respond? I am interested because this was the topic of my doctoral dissertation and what prompted me to publish a book dealing with this issue.

[Samie]

Samie:

You are brave to openly admit that you agree with some MAJOR positions. I have just read Adventist Alternative again and noticed that the author indeed offered Biblical alternatives. You must remember that we are dealing here with matters of INTERPRETATION ..of which there are different "schools".

About No One Goes To Heaven: this is a simple matter of exegesis. JESUS SAID no one goes to heaven! And the interpretration of John 14:1-3 is hermaneutically sound. If you have a problem with Enoch and Elijah, do some research and Google: Did Enoch and Elijah really go to heaven? There will be a number of responses which you might find interesting to analize.

[Umfundize]

See John 3:13. You have interesting observations regarding the three dimensions. But salvation involves a cognizant decision AFTER the gospel is fully explained. The LOST must come back to the fold.

The references in Revelation involves a cosmic interchange where John sees something in heaven and then on earth, in heaven, then on earth, etc. Heaven, right now, houses God the Father, Jesus the Son, and ANGELS. Miriads of angels. 24 of them are regarded as ELDERS holding special position,, Around the throne are other special beings with different heads on them.

The sea of glass is a description of the splendour of New Jerusalem which will COME DOWN for the wedding ON EARTH.

[Samie]

See John 3:13.

[Umfundize]

Did you ever read Rev 17:8? Here we find people who's names WERE NOT written in the Book of Life from the Foundation of the world! That pretty much poses a problemo for you?

Regarding the ascentions to heaven, of course, that means up to the time Jesus spoke those words. It would keep Enoch and Elijah OUT of heaven!

[Samie]

Did you ever read Rev 17:8? Here we find people who's names WERE NOT written in the Book of Life from the Foundation of the world! That pretty much poses a problemo for you?

[Samie]

On page 64 of the AA, Dr. Pieter writes:

Quote:

In Revelation 19:11-21, we find the dramatic description of the Second Coming of Christ, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords

It is not the 2nd Coming; it is the coming that comes after the marriage of the Lamb in heaven. The marriage occurs with the saints already in heaven as Rev 19:1 informs us, and therefore after the 2nd Coming because no one can be in heaven unless Christ had first returned and took them there as His bride. Since it occurs after the 2nd Coming, we can call it the 3rd Coming.

Any counter-comments, Umfundize? If none, then the AA needs revising.

[Umfundize]

When you take a careful look at the Greek in Rev 19:1 people = angels. 24 plus some other kinds. Do you believe in the RAPTURE? There are only 3 groups who get people INTO HEAVEN: those who believe incorrectly about State of Dead= you go straight to heaven when you die; those who believe in the Rapture and marriage feast IN HEAVEN; Adventists who believe they go to heaven for 1000 years to check up on the sin-record of their lost family and friends. THAT's IT!

Zach 14 will explain the second coming in more detail. SDA teaching about a THIRD coming is wrong. After we meet Him in the air, we do NOT go to heaven or any other planet, but to the EARTHLY JERUSALEM from where He ascended! Read Zach 14. So, Dr Pieter seems to be OK!

[Samie]

When you take a careful look at the Greek in Rev 19:1 people = angels. 24 plus some other kinds.

[Samie]

'much people' = 'great multitude':

Quote:

KJV Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God

ESV Revelation 19:1 After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God

NASB Revelation 19:1 After these things I heard, as it were, a (a)loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, ("Hallelujah! ©Salvation and (d)glory and power belong to our God

NIV Revelation 19:1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God

NKJV Revelation 19:1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God

NRSV Revelation 19:1 After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power to our God

The loud voice heard by John in Rev 19:1 is the voice of the same great multitude he saw in front of the throne of God in heaven which he recorded in Rev 7:9.

Quote:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

No doubt, "No one goes to heaven" in the AA needs deleting. To do so would be a better alternative.

[Umfundize]

Rev 19:1 = no indication from Gr. that those were not humans, but a MULTITUDE OF ANGELS. No changes needed in AA!

[Samie]

When shown Biblical proof that the AA needed changes when it concluded "No one goes to heaven" but the Bible says otherwise because Rev 19:1 speaks of much people in heaven, Umfundize said:

When you take a careful look at the Greek in Rev 19:1 people = angels. 24 plus some other kinds.

[Umfundize]

Sorry, first mistake I made in years! I meant to say: Rev 19:1= no indication from Gr. that those were anything else BUT ANGELS! Have a good week.

[Samie]

Sorry, first mistake I made in years! I meant to say: Rev 19:1= no indication from Gr. that those were anything else BUT ANGELS! Have a good week.

Before you go, brother, you seem to have forgotten that "ochlos" is not the same as "aggelos". That's your second mistake.

Rev 19:1 speaks of "ochlos" NOT "aggelos". This is your third mistake.

[Umfundize]

Are you SURE the word is "ochlos" and it only and always refers to HUMANS?

Is Jesus building more MANSIONS than is ALREADY in heaven? Or is He making provision FOR us and to KEEP us saved as members of the HOUSEHOLD of the Father?

You do not believe in the RAPTURE, yet you believe in a heavenly wedding? The bride must go to the GROOM? Or does the groom come to the BRIDE?

How long will the feast be? 1000 years? To include the checking up on the sins of the lost AND help Jesus "mete out punishment"? as EGW saw in vision in GC.

[Samie]

Are you SURE the word is "ochlos" and it only and always refers to HUMANS?

[Umfundize]

Fair enough.

If the PURPOSE of the Earthly Millennium is not to offer the gospel to the billions who NEVER HEARD THE GOSPEL for the FIRST time, WHAT is the REASON FOR the Millennium?

And WHEN WILL the uninformed ever get to hear the Plan of Salvation?

Did you Google Rev 19:1 people? Interesting to read the opines of the learned.

[Samie]

Fair enough.

[Umfundize]

So, we believe then in a coming earthly millennium as Jesus preached and prophecied about?

Also Zachariah et al. There is absolutely NOT ONE Bible verse referring to a heavenly millennium where the sin-records of the lost will be inspected! And where SDA's will assist Jesus to "mete out punishment" on the lost (G Contr.).

So,Samie, what say you about the position of Adventist Alternative about the Family of God, and the explanation of the Comforter?

[fccool]

Quote:

I believe the request of the author is not to make some of the "problem doctrines" TESTS for MEMBERSHIP. Could a person be a church member if you do not believe the SDA church is THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH of Revelation and ALL OTHER Christians are children of the harlot of Revelation 17? Should the GC allow such a one to be a member, yes or no?

Is GC an all-knowing and infallible Pope?

[Nic Samojluk]

fccool wrote:

“Is GC an all-knowing and infallible Pope?”

Good question. Here is what Ellen White wrote a century ago about the Adventist Church:

“We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors' wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?” {TSB 188.3}

If she wrote this dire warning when the Adventist Church was pro-life, what would she say today knowing that thousands of innocent unborn children have been killed inside our own Adventist hospitals with the knowledge and acquiescence of the Adventist leadership for the sake of profit?

[Umfundize]

I was told " the General Conference, in Autumn Session, is the highest authority of God on earth" Very close to a papal pronouncement!

And then, of course, the high profits yielded from the sales of The Clear Word Bible. THIS is one of the MAJOR reasons why SDA was re-classified, this year, as a CULT.

If in doubt, simply Google Frances and Friends, archives of June 5,6 and 7 and view the discussions yourself.

[Naomi]

With all due respect, do you believe everything you are told or read? If you do your own research I believe you will come to your own conclusions.

BTY, who is the world is Francis & Friends?

[Nic Samojluk]

How can I explain to my grandchildren that the “highest authority of God on earth” has been profiting from the killing of innocent unborn children in our own hospitals? Doesn’t this bother you the way it bothers me and many other Adventist pro-life individuals?

Some leading pro-life members have left the Adventist Church precisely for this reason, and some of them have gone back to Rome. What would Ellen White say if she were to come back to life today and learn what has taken place in our church?

[Naomi]

This is the post to which I was referring:

Quote:

I was told " the General Conference, in Autumn Session, is the highest authority of God on earth" Very close to a papal pronouncement!

And then, of course, the high profits yielded from the sales of The Clear Word Bible. THIS is one of the MAJOR reasons why SDA was re-classified, this year, as a CULT.

If in doubt, simply Google Frances and Friends, archives of June 5,6 and 7 and view the discussions yourself.