Could you opine about www.adventistalternative.org?

[Overaged]

Very nicely put!

[Overaged]

I was expecting you would show from Scriptures the basis of your "phases of judgment", rather than just tell me to "consider" there are several phases but only one judgment.

[Overaged]

No, that is not the case, brother. That is why I showed you based on Scriptures, in my posts which I suspect you may have missed, the judgment in Heb 9:27 occurs after a person dies deals whether to blot his name or not from the book of life, while the judgment in Dan 7 occurs when rewards are given at the 2nd Coming, with no other judgment intervening in between.

You seem to be admitting here to two distinctly different judgments with two different purposes. Am I correct in thinking this?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

No, that is not the case, brother. That is why I showed you based on Scriptures, in my posts which I suspect you may have missed, the judgment in Heb 9:27 occurs after a person dies deals whether to blot his name or not from the book of life, while the judgment in Dan 7 occurs when rewards are given at the 2nd Coming, with no other judgment intervening in between.

You seem to be admitting here to two distinctly different judgments with two different purposes. Am I correct in thinking this?

Yes, brother. Again, the one in Hebrews concerns handing down the decision, after a person dies, whether to blot his name or not from the book of life. If he is an overcomer, his name stays, otherwise it gets blotted out. The one in Daniel 7 concerns the giving of rewards at the 2nd Coming: eternal life for the overcomers so they can possess the kingdom forever; and wrath of God - the 7 last plagues - for all others and after the millennium, thrown into the lake of fire.

[Overaged]

Yes, brother.

1/ Again, the one in Hebrews concerns handing down the decision, after a person dies, whether to blot his name or not from the book of life. If he is an overcomer, his name stays, otherwise it gets blotted out.

2/The one in Daniel 7 concerns the giving of rewards at the 2nd Coming: eternal life for the overcomers so they can possess the kingdom forever; and wrath of God - the 7 last plagues - for all others and after the millennium, thrown into the lake of fire.

Well; atleast I am right about something here! That is progress! I took the liberty of numbering your two judgments statements for easier discussion.

With number 1, How would you prove any of what you said there? Heb 9:27 does not say any of that.

With number 2, how do you arrive at this conclusion; especially in consideration of vs 9-10, 13-14 in Daniel 7? Those verses show the mediatorial phase of God's judment to be before the second coming.

And do you have any comment re my post on Rev 14:6-12, regarding the first angel's message and the time frame in which it ocurrs?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Yes, brother.

1/ Again, the one in Hebrews concerns handing down the decision, after a person dies, whether to blot his name or not from the book of life. If he is an overcomer, his name stays, otherwise it gets blotted out.

2/The one in Daniel 7 concerns the giving of rewards at the 2nd Coming: eternal life for the overcomers so they can possess the kingdom forever; and wrath of God - the 7 last plagues - for all others and after the millennium, thrown into the lake of fire.

Well; atleast I am right about something here! That is progress! I took the liberty of numbering your two judgments statements for easier discussion.

With number 1, How would you prove any of what you said there? Heb 9:27 does not say any of that.

With number 2, how do you arrive at this conclusion; especially in consideration of vs 9-10, 13-14 in Daniel 7? Those verses show the mediatorial phase of God's judment to be before the second coming.

And do you have any comment re my post on Rev 14:6-12, regarding the first angel's message and the time frame in which it ocurrs?

Thank you, bother, for giving me the opportunity to discuss this truth with you. I am happy to tell you that Scriptures provide the proof:

With No. 1.

1a. I mentioned that the judgment in Heb 9:27 occurs after a man dies. It's right there in the verse.

1b. I said that it has something to do with the handing down of decision whether to blot his name or not from the book of life. That names of overcomers will not be blotted out is explicitly mentioned by the Lord Himself in Rev 3:5. It follows that non-overcomers will be blotted out, as God Himself told Moses in Exo 32:33.

Since after the judgment in v27, the 2nd Coming is spoken of in v28 of Heb 9, where rewards will be given to each man according to what each has done (Dan 7:9,10,18; Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), there is then no other period for deciding to retain or blot out names from the book of life, but the judgment in v27 that occurs after a man dies.

Supreme love and fairness of God in judgment can be easily seen in this process. By fashioning all descendants of Adam & Eve into the body of His Son, God had, on the cross, effectively enabled all to be able to become overcomers, with their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world, contingent upon the death of the Lamb of God on the cross. This is God's work FOR man, not an iota of human participation. There is then no reason for anyone of us not to overcome, being now attached to Him Who is our Strength (John 15:5; Phil 4:13). God now works IN us through the Holy Spirit (Phil 4:12), and by positively responding to His leading we are sure to overcome evil with good. Should at any point in time we commit sin, the sin committed is no longer imputed against us (2 Cor 5:18,19) since this sin had long been forgiven on the cross and we continue to fight unburdened with sin. In fact, God assured us He will remember our sins NO MORE (Heb 10:16,17). And He waits for us throughout our lifetime to become overcomers, for it is only after we die that judgment to blot our names or not from the book of life is meted out. It is then no longer a question of INABILITY but rather that of REFUSAL to overcome, if at the end of one's journey in life he is found to be not an overcomer. At the 2nd Coming, overcomers will be rewarded with life eternal and possess the kingdom forever; all others will be rewarded with the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues - and after the millennium thrown into the lake of fire.

My next post will be on item No. 2

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

...

2/The one in Daniel 7 concerns the giving of rewards at the 2nd Coming: eternal life for the overcomers so they can possess the kingdom forever; and wrath of God - the 7 last plagues - for all others and after the millennium, thrown into the lake of fire.

...

With number 2, how do you arrive at this conclusion; especially in consideration of vs 9-10, 13-14 in Daniel 7? Those verses show the mediatorial phase of God's judment to be before the second coming.

...

[Samie]

...

And do you have any comment re my post on Rev 14:6-12, regarding the first angel's message and the time frame in which it ocurrs?

[Overaged]

I appreciate all your efforts in replying here. Thankyou.

So we are in agreement that the first angel's messgae of Rev.14:6-12 is something that takes place BEFORE the second coming. Therefore, we need to consider the implications of this. The angel says: "The hour of judgment IS come;" meaning before Jesus comes, and well before the resurrection, and the second coming.

You have tried to tell me on the one hand re Heb 9:27 how that there is only one judgment, no phases...yet, with Dan 7: 9-10, 13, you have conceded another judgement, separate from the one of Heb 9:27.

You have especially emphasized how the one judgment that you promote can only take place after we die; yet here is the first angel of Rev 14 saying: "The hour of judgment IS come," as in now, before we die.

Apparently, there actually are various judgment activities taking place at different points in time. It will be very difficult to refute this point from the Bible.

I am glad that we are also in agreement about a number of things; especially about the fact that the judgment will vindicate God's character. This is something we can build on.

[Umfundize]

I believe the one poster is confusing Dr Barky with someone else who indeed committed plagiarism, according to The White Lie, etc. Dr. Barkhuizen did not claim anything new or that he had any "visions of the night". He joined the chorus who went before him to try and convince the GC to do away with things most Progressive SDA's no longer believe in, INCLUDING some in high places. It is stated that he referred readers to check out Wikipedia on John 10:22,23 Hannukah "when he claims to offer the Bible only" The problemo is that NEITHER the Bible NOR SOP has anything further to say about John 10:22 The ONLY option then is to ask ANY JEW to explain to you what Hanukkah means.They will show you how it DEMOLISHES the EGW/SDA take on Daniel 8:14. Antiochus Epiphanes and Judas Maccabeus fulfilled Dan 8:14 and we cannot jump from this verse right into heaven on Oct 22,1844. Now please focus on the thread and do not challenge me "to produce evidence of those in high places who agree with Adventist Alternative".

[Gustave]

How does this group view abortions being conducted at SDA medical facilities?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Now please focus on the thread and do not challenge me "to produce evidence of those in high places who agree with Adventist Alternative".

Pot calling the kettle........

[Lysimachus]

Have you easily forgotten our discussion in the thread Daniel 11? Your last stand there against my biblically based position was that it is not in accordance with the SOP.

No, the 2300-day prophecy (literal days, NOT years, biblically) in Dan 8 has not yet even started and is yet to be fulfilled in the future shortly before the 2nd Coming! This I can prove from the Bible and the Bible alone, as Sister White bids us all to do.

I've lost track of a lot of discussions due to lack of time, and many responses to threads of mine that I have yet to read. I have been traveling, and managing about 3 businesses at the same time.

Biblically, you cannot prove that the 2300 days are yet future. This is garbage. A careful, word-for-word, verse-by-verse exegetical study will not allow it. The 'Daily' Source Book (222 pages) breaks down the verses methodically, and shows how the 2300 days can only begin during the time of the Persian empire. The "mareh of the evening and morning" encompasses the entire "chazon", not a "part" of the "chazon", and when does the Chazon begin? With the Ram (Persia) standing on the bank of the River Ulai. This is not future my friend. Sorry.

[Q.E.D.]

Now please focus on the thread and do not challenge me "to produce evidence of those in high places who agree with Adventist Alternative".

My dear Umfundize, You made the claims about those in "high places" so stand up and produce the evidence to back your claims.

Those that will not defend what they believe end up with nothing worth defending.

Q.E.D.

[Umfundize]

Did you notice the immediate focuss? The nonsense about some in "high places" instead of the REAL QUESTION that pushes you into a corner! The TRUTH about John 10:22,23 ! Could you possibly check out Wkipedia on John 10:22,23 ?

[Q.E.D.]

Did you notice the immediate focuss? The nonsense about some in "high places" instead of the REAL QUESTION that pushes you into a corner! The TRUTH about John 10:22,23 ! Could you possibly check out Wkipedia on John 10:22,23 ?

[Lysimachus]

Dr. Barky has the whackiest view of the millennium. He uses the same old Dispensational arguments to try and prove that the millennium is on earth. As if our Adventist pioneers weren't familiar with this popular Christian traditional teaching of centuries prior! A MAJOR shift had been made in prohpetic understanding in relation to the principles of prophetic types and antitypes. But Barky utterly fails to recognize that the old testament local types were redefined in the new testament to antitypes, and instead, goes back to the SAME old basic arguments. All verses defining an earthly reign are pointing forward to after the millennim. Barky for a while seemed to be making some good points, that is, until I read this article that totally demolished Barky once and for all on the millennial question:

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/1000years.htm

[Umfundize]

QED:

I think you need to read again what Dr Barky wrote. He specifically said the REASON Jesus died, was to SAVE sinners. The reason was NOT to make them gods. ...like the Mormons believe.Just take one small bite at a time with your Bible next to you. Compare the difference between an excellent exegesis eg of John 14:1-3 (No One goes the Heaven) and what sister and shadow-writers had "seen".

Is it possible to ACTUALLY refute ANY of the "alternative" positions from the Bible alone? Not so! Now don't forget John 10:22,23 which answers Daniel 8:14. Research this and be honest about the conclusion.

[Lysimachus]

QED:

I think you need to read again what Dr Barky wrote. He specifically said the REASON Jesus died, was to SAVE sinners. The reason was NOT to make them gods. ...like the Mormons believe.Just take one small bite at a time with your Bible next to you. Compare the difference between an excellent exegesis eg of John 14:1-3 (No One goes the Heaven) and what sister and shadow-writers had "seen".

Is it possible to ACTUALLY refute ANY of the "alternative" positions from the Bible alone? Not so! Now don't forget John 10:22,23 which answers Daniel 8:14. Research this and be honest about the conclusion.

John 10:22,23 answers NOTHING to Daniel 8:14. Barky just made that up out of his wild hat.

AS I have already unequivocally proven, the mareh of the evening-morning (2300) mentioned in Daniel 8:26, ENCOMPASSES the entire Chazon, and the Chazon begins at the beginning of Daniel 8 with the RAM--standing there by the bank of the river.

457 B.C. is right SMACK in the middle of Persia's existence. To push the 2300 days to the time of Christ, revolving the literal temple, is absolute foolishness--especially in light that the attack is VERTICAL, while Christ was on the earth not in heaven at that time. Thus the argument is mute.

We are living in the Investigative Judgment since 1844. That's final Umfundize, whether you like it or not. Take it or leave it.

[Q.E.D.]

QED:

I think you need to read again what Dr Barky wrote. He specifically said the REASON Jesus died, was to SAVE sinners. The reason was NOT to make them gods. ...like the Mormons believe.

Huh? You think I need to read it again?

Here my dear Umfundize, You read it again!

And then tell us all that it does not claim that Seventh-day Adventists and trinitarians teach that man can become God and that "All it is saying" is that "the REASON Jesus died, was to SAVE sinners".

. . . What a cartload of pure psycho-babble nonsense!

Below is a quote from Adventist Alternative on page 14 for Umfundize to read.

"Here is another absurdity: “God requires PERFECTION in His children. Humanity and DIVINITY COMBINED can obey every one of God’s precepts.” Christ’s Object Lessons, pp. 314-315. “What Christ was in His PERFECT humanity, WE MUST BE!” Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, p. 173. I don’t know about you, but I cannot make it! What about the free gift! God does NOT require us to pre-qualify for His FREE GIFT! Isaiah 64:6 – “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags …..” Only in Christ is found our sinless perfection! NOWHERE ELSE! The question is, do YOU believe this? These statements by Sister White, with a strong bias toward Perfectionism, are all built on the foundation of Trinitarianism. Trinitarianism and Perfectionism are inseparable, like co-joined twins. Here is the reasoning: If Christ, as the Divine Son of God, came from heaven, blending His Divinity with our humanity, then, in order to follow his example, we need to allow our humanity to be clothed with His Divinity in order to live without sinning. Christians are thusly locked into what theologians call, THEOSIS, where men become partakers in the life of the Godhead. However, humanity can NEVER be elevated to the level of DEITY, at most only higher than the angels! Jesus died to SAVE sinners, not to make them part of DEITY! Adam and Eve were not created as DIVINE human beings! Hosea 11:9 – “I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not

return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man ….. “ God is not a man, and never will be! Neither is any man God, and never will be! The idea of “man becoming as God is”, is the hallmark of Mormonism!" ~ Adventist Alternative Page 14.

Below are a couple of Bible Verses for Dr. Barkhuizen and Umfundize to ponder.

"4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature , having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."(2 Pet 1:4)

"9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."(1 Cor 6:9-11)

[skyblue888]

That's right O.E.D.

We may become partakers of the divine nature, Christ's divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4). This union makes us one with Him as He is one with the Father. It does not make us God but it makes us one with God, one with the Godhead and this is what will make the redeemed sit with Christ as the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Eph.2:6) The fact that the redeemed are one with Christ as He is one with the Father elevates them in the scales of moral value, not with the angels who have never sinned, but with God. After all the first Adam was from the earth but the second Adam is the Lord from Heaven. (1 Cor.15:45-49)

"Christ places His own merits upon man and thus elevates him in the scales of moral value with God." Our Father Cares,121.

Thus we read, "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature FAR ABOVE that which Adam forfeited by transgression." E.G.W. The Upward Look,18.

This is, indeed, a beautiful paraphrase of 1 Cor.15:45-49.

Of His people God says, "They shall be as stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon His land. For how great in His goodness and how great is His beauty!" Zech.9:16,17.

"The exaltation of the redeemed will be an eternal testimony to God's mercy... The angels of glory find their joy in giving,--giving love and tireless watchcare to souls that are fallen and unholy. Heavenly beings woo the hearts of men; they bring to this dark world light from the courts above; by gentle and patient ministry they move upon the human spirit, to bring the lost into a fellowship with Christ which is even closer than they themselves can know." D.A.21.

sky

[jasd]

>>whether you like it or not. Take it or leave it.<<

The bombastic assert thinking to form a trifle... Good to see you posting so unequivocally again. Oh, by-the-way, please provide the tried and tired text proving that the saints will spend the millennium in heaven. I rather weary today and you often give me to smile.

QR frame:

Re: "The reason was NOT to make them gods. ...like the Mormons believe."

Indeed not - for both Testaments state that we are already gods, fallen though we be... Goes to how a thing is perceived and/or otherwise defined, yes?

Also, one partaking of a divine nature may do so whilst in retention of his own [sinning] nature - goes to the magnanimity of the dispenser of grace.

Re: Writ informs that even Jesus Christ was made perfect. We are told that He had to have died like as man dies to obtain His perfection. Notice: His perfection; not yours, not mine, for our perfection lie within other parameters.

[skyblue888]

Where else could they be spending that time except in Heaven for when Jesus comes the second time the saints will be meeting Him in the air (1 Thess.4:16,17) and they will ascend with Him to the courts above and reign with Him for a thousand years as told in Revelation 20:6,7.

sky

[Umfundize]

Mr Sky, that is why you should ACTUALLY READ Adventist Alternative on www.adventistalternative.org. The latter section explains the Millennium in detail and that is what the Review Committee are so excited about....and will hopefully

[Q.E.D.]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. . . Q.E.D.