Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 An idea that props up when one cannot believe what Scriptures say to the contrary. Let's say I'm your neighbor. I've not introduced myself and when I see you getting in your car I come up and say, "Hi, I'm Rob. Let's get together and play a game of golf!" So you agree. Then I say, "Okay, let's meet Sunday around noon, but if you don't show up I'll kill you." You know what you would do? You would excuse yourself and go in your house and call the police man and have nothing to do with me. Yet when it comes to God we blindly accept such a personality disorder. In a nutshell your version of God comes down to the following: Hi, I'm Jesus - I love you. Now love me back or I'll burn you in fire and brimstone until you are dust. Behaviors we wouldn't accept with our neighbors we blindly accept because of our tradition view of God.
Samie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Originally Posted By: Samie An idea that props up when one cannot believe what Scriptures say to the contrary. Let's say I'm your neighbor. I've not introduced myself and when I see you getting in your car I come up and say, "Hi, I'm Rob. Let's get together and play a game of golf!" So you agree. Then I say, "Okay, let's meet Sunday around noon, but if you don't show up I'll kill you." You know what you would do? You would excuse yourself and go in your house and call the police man and have nothing to do with me. Yet when it comes to God we blindly accept such a personality disorder. In a nutshell your version of God comes down to the following: Hi, I'm Jesus - I love you. Now love me back or I'll burn you in fire and brimstone until you are dust. Behaviors we wouldn't accept with our neighbors we blindly accept because of our tradition view of God. In a nutshell here's your view of God: Hi, God. I am the worst man on earth and I can do all I want and will even spit into your face and box your nose if you try to show up and stop me from my tantrums. I will go on doing this knowing you are a God who cannot do anything bad to me. You can live in your make-believe view of God. I'll stick to what the Bible says.
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Hosea 11:8 "How can I give you up (abandon you), Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I treat you like Admah? How can I make you like Zeboyim? My heart is changed within me; all my compassion is aroused. Notice the cities Admah and Zeboyim. Now go to Deut 29:23 The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger (wrath). Notice God's reluctance....His compassion is aroused, but yet He can't in love force those who reject Him to remain under the umbrella of His love and protection. His departure, sooner or later, brings disaster.
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 You can live in your make-believe view of God. I'll stick to what the Bible says. What you are sticking to is tradition....Here's what Ellen White states: Whenever the people of God are growing in grace, they will be constantly obtaining a clearer understanding of His word. They will discern new light and beauty in its sacred truths. This has been true in the history of the church in all ages, and thus will continue to the end. But as real spiritual life declines, it has ever been the tendency to cease to advance in the knowledge of the truth. Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what." (5T pp. 706-707).
Q.E.D. Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 69 On the Mount of Olives "When He referred to the destruction of Jerusalem, His prophetic words reached beyond that event to the final conflagration in that day when the Lord shall rise out of His place to punish the world for their iniquity, when the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. This entire discourse was given, not for the disciples only, but for those who should live in the last scenes of this earth's history."(Desire of Ages, 628) Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Q.E.D. Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Leviticus 10 "1 ¶ And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. 3 ¶ Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace. 4 And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said unto them, Come near, carry your brethren from before the sanctuary out of the camp. 5 So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said. 6 And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled"(Lev 10:1-6) Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 So? God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent. One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. God's wrath is passive...He retreats where He is rejected.
Q.E.D. Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Q.E.D. Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 "in that day when the Lord shall rise out of His place to punish the world for their iniquity", (Desire of Ages, 628) Sooooo, Satan punishes the world for their inquity our dear Robert? Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Sooooo, Satan punishes the world for their inquity our dear Robert? No...sin is a destroyer. "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself."
olger Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Originally Posted By: cheddar 1) God literally rained fire and brimstone down on Sodom and Gomorrah. No, God retreated and trouble followed. I never said Satan did it..... Wow. just Wow. `G "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, Job 1:16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!" (NIV)
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Originally Posted By: Q.E.D. Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, Job 1:16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!" (NIV) Here's the problem - God didn't do it: Job 1:11 (Satan to God) But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." 12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. Clearly Satan blames God. I mean look - "Stretch out your hand and strike"....And we blame God when bad things happen. A tornado kills 100 folks and we call it an "act of God". Terrible! God retreated and Job's problems multiplied. It was in the absence of God these things happened.
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I [God] will strike the Shepherd (Jesus). . . . We esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4). If we take the traditional view then God had Christ tortured & killed. But if we are honest, God wasn't around. That's why Christ cried out -My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Mark 15:34). "Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race." [DA 753] The fire, after the 2nd resurrection, is the result of God's abandonment of the wicked (those who have rejected and despised the Son of God's atonement). Hence, "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself."
Q.E.D. Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Originally Posted By: Q.E.D. Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, Job 1:16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!" (NIV) Hmmmm. . . Methinks that was the opinion of the messenger that it was the "fire of God". God did not say it was His fire. In Leviticus it is not an opinion but a point blank statement from God that it was the "Fire of God." Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Q.E.D. Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Here's the problem - God didn't do it: Clearly Satan blames God. I mean look - "Stretch out your hand and strike"....And we blame God when bad things happen. A tornado kills 100 folks and we call it an "act of God". Terrible! Who is the "WE" you are talking about? "WE" don't call it an "act of God." Un-terrible! Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Q.E.D. Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 God's wrath is passive...He retreats where He is rejected. What on earth is "passive wrath"? Sounds like psycho-babble. Do you mean like when someone throws a rock at a tin can setting on top of a post and the rock accidentally bounces off the post and strikes a person in the eye and blinds them? Is that "passive wrath"? Or do you mean like when someone is mad at their wife and they cannot control their anger so they pick up a chair and throw it at a TV and the chair bounces off the TV and kills their 2 year old baby? Is that "Passive wrath"? Or is "passive wrath" when a drugged out 18 year old breaks into a home and the man of the house lets the nut-job kill his wife because she just told him 10 minutes before that she has been having an affair with the man that lives next door? So when the police arrive he tells them he did not try to stop the murdering teen because he was rejected by her! Is that "passive wrath"? Just wondering. . . Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Guest Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Hmmmm. . . Methinks that was the opinion of the messenger that it was the "fire of God". God did not say it was His fire. In Leviticus it is not an opinion but a point blank statement from God that it was the "Fire of God." Exactly! End of debate! And what a lame argument to use something a messenger said in the book of Job, to prove that God cannot be trusted to mean what He says, or to tell the truth. And if God really doesn't destroy, then Satan and his angels will live forever. God is the only one who can end it for them.
Guest Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Originally Posted By: Robert God's wrath is passive...He retreats where He is rejected. What on earth is "passive wrath"? Sounds like psycho-babble. Do you mean like when someone throws a rock at a tin can setting on top of a post and the rock accidentally bounces off the post and strikes a person in the eye and blinds them? Is that "passive wrath"? Or do you mean like when someone is mad at their wife and they cannot control their anger so they pick up a chair and throw it at a TV and the chair bounces off the TV and kills their 2 year old baby? Is that "Passive wrath"? Or is "passive wrath" when a drugged out 18 year old breaks into a home and the man of the house lets the nut-job kill his wife because she just told him 10 minutes before that she has been having an affair with the man that lives next door? So when the police arrive he tells them he did not try to stop the murdering teen because he was rejected by her! Is that "passive wrath"? Just wondering. . . Q.E.D.
Q.E.D. Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Originally Posted By: Q.E.D. Hmmmm. . . Methinks that was the opinion of the messenger that it was the "fire of God". God did not say it was His fire. In Leviticus it is not an opinion but a point blank statement from God that it was the "Fire of God." Exactly! End of debate! And what a lame argument to use something a messenger said in the book of Job, to prove that God cannot be trusted to mean what He says, or to tell the truth. And if God really doesn't destroy, then Satan and his angels will live forever. God is the only one who can end it for them. AMEN! Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 In Leviticus it is not an opinion but a point blank statement from God that it was the "Fire of God." Mark 14:27 “You will all fall away,” Jesus told them, “for it is written: “‘I [God] will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.’" If we are to take an account literally then God had Jesus whipped, and crucified. But we know better. The same applies to Leviticus. Why? God changes not!
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Just wondering. . . Q.E.D. Here's passive wrath in a nutshell: Deut 31:17 In that day my wrath will be moved against them, How? and I will be turned away from them, veiling my face from them, the result? and destruction will overtake them, and unnumbered evils and troubles will come on them; so that in that day they will say, Have not these evils come on us because our God is not with us? That's passive wrath. You see God says "I will never leave you are forsake you." God loves you more than Himself because with God there's no self-love. He lives for you....He, according to the Bible, is servant of all. However, His love does not compel. If you persistently reject God He will not force His love and protection on you. What follows is what the Bible terms the wrath of God.
Windsor Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 Notice that it is not the punishment of God for sin which is death but rather the wages of sin. I work for ten hours at ten dollars an hour then I get 100 dollars. That is my wage. That is the natural result of my work. If sin doesn't truly lead to death on its own, then perhaps Satan is right and God is artificially keeping us from having a good time and hence His law is unjust. Satan has been kept alive by God these past 6000 years through the special power of God, otherwise if he didn't die an accidental death, surely one of his angels would have killed him in order to take his place. Remember Adventists Online?
Robert Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 However, His love does not compel. If you persistently reject God He will not force His love and protection on you. What follows is what the Bible terms the wrath of God. Romans chapter 1 is the perfect chapter on the passive wrath of God: The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them up to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. You see sin is a destroyer. It's effects kill. God didn't create AIDS to kill, men committing indecent acts brought about that disease. Bad things happen when God gives you up because you have turned your back on Him. Again, love does not compel....
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