The Wrath of God

[skyblue888]

What do you mean Whose side am I on?

Like Q.E.D. you guys really dont take the time to read.

A few min ago I posted this:

The point is that the Bible does say that God sends fire down from heaven upon the impenitent,,, that He even sent the flood,,,, that He sends strong delusions to those who do not have the love of the truth,,, that He sent fiery serpents,,, evil spirits... ect etc

There is no question about what the Bible says. What we are trying to determine with the Bible and the SoP is what this language means and we have already seen some examples as to what it means.

Are we going to close our eyes to these examples and thus make it impossible for the Lord to teach us or will we take the time to weigh in and pray that we might receive the correct understanding?

And this:

I beg you pardon Q.E.D. but the true teaching of the Bible and the SoP on this important topic does not lead to universalism but to the correct understanding of the language of the Bible describing God's actions. Sin and sinners will be destroyed. This is not what is in question here. I believe we all agree on that. What we are studying is How does God destroy sinners? How does He send fire down from Heaven upon the impenitent? How does He send fiery serpents, strong delusions, evil spirits?

Unless we understand how we cannot honor Him.

Speaking of those through whom the Lord will finish the work in these last days, we read, "They can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them." G.C.593.

sky

[Q.E.D.]

Q.E.D. I can see that your mind has already been made up. If you would really take what has been posted in the last few minutes you would not rush like you are to reply the way you are.

You really need to address these last posts.

sky

Why do I "really need to address these last posts"?

I have clearly stated logical, biblical based, reasons for my position.

Why should I step into a fetid cesspool of shifting opinons that are clearly outside of "Thus saith the Lord"? It would prove nothing except that perhaps I can match wits with someone else.

But I will humour you. Just exactly what would you like me to address "In these last posts"?

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Many like their version of a god who destroys because it fits their own natures. They place sinful, human attributes unto a God of love.

And your view of God is like a weak absentee father who's afraid to get his hands dirty.

No one here is denying that God is a God of love but he's also a God of justice.

Your one-sided view of God leads to universalism and cheap grace.

I beg you pardon Q.E.D. but the true teaching of the Bible and the SoP on this important topic does not lead to universalism but to the correct understanding of the language of the Bible describing God's actions. Sin and sinners will be destroyed. This is not what is in question here. I believe we all agree on that. What we are studying is How does God destroy sinners? How does He send fire down from Heaven upon the impenitent? How does He send fiery serpents, strong delusions, evil spirits?

Unless we understand how we cannot honor Him.

Speaking of those through whom the Lord will finish the work in these last days, we read, "They can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them." G.C.593.

sky

This is what you should have been quoting.

sky

So how am I involved with this? I did not post any of the above. Q.E.D>

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

I thought Jesus Saves.

Q.E.D.

Saves from what?

Eternal death.

Q.E.D.

[skyblue888]

Why do I "really need to address these last posts"?

I have clearly stated logical, biblical based, reasons for my position.

Why should I step into a fetid cesspool of shifting opinons that are clearly outside of "Thus saith the Lord"? It would prove nothing except that perhaps I can match wits with someone else.

But I will humour you. Just exactly what would you like me to address "In these last posts"?

Q.E.D.

These, for a start:

"Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

The whole world has been deceived and even the professed people of God, yes, us Adventists, who have been exalted to Heaven in point of privilege, and yet have not discerned the precious light.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obcures His glory from their view." 1 S.M.355.

sky

[Q.E.D.]

"Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

sky

"29 The Origin of Evil"

Okay, GC 492 below. . .

"They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. And in their uncertainty and doubt they are blinded to truths plainly revealed in God's word and essential to salvation. There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed; hence they find no solution of their difficulties; and such as are actuated by a disposition to doubt and cavil seize upon this as an excuse for rejecting the words of Holy Writ. Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin.It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government."(GC11, 492-493)

The above is not addressing any short-comings of Seventh-day Adventist doctrines.

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

The whole world has been deceived and even the professed people of God, yes, us Adventists, who have been exalted to Heaven in point of privilege, and yet have not discerned the precious light.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obcures His glory from their view." 1 S.M.355.

sky

Below from 1 S.M. 355 . . . REPORT OF CAMP

MEETING AT OTTAWA, KANSAS, PRINTED IN THE

REVIEW AND HERALD, JULY 23, 1889.

"At the Kansas meeting my prayer to God was, that the power of the enemy might be broken, and that the people who had been in darkness might open their hearts and minds to the message that God should send them, that they might see the truth, new to many minds, as old truth in new framework. The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold on the hope set before them in the gospel of Christ. . . . {1SM 355.1}

On Sabbath, truths were presented that were new to the majority of the congregation. Things new and old were

brought forth from the treasure house of God's Word. Truths were revealed which the people were scarcely able to comprehend and appropriate. Light flashed from the oracles of God in relation to the law and the gospel, in relation to the fact that Christ is our righteousness, which seemed to souls who were hungry for truth, as light too precious to be received. {1SM 355.2}

But the labors of the Sabbath were not in vain. On Sunday morning there was decided evidence that the Spirit of God was working great changes in the moral and spiritual condition of those assembled. There was a surrendering of the mind and heart to God, and precious testimonies were borne by those who had long been in darkness. One brother spoke of the struggle that he had experienced before he could receive the good news that Christ is our righteousness. The conflict was severe, but the Lord was at work with him, and his mind was changed, and his strength renewed. The Lord presented the truth before him in clear lines, revealing the fact that Christ alone is the source of all hope and salvation. "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1:4, 14).

"Light flashed from the oracles of God in relation to the law and the gospel, in relation to the fact that Christ is our righteousness, which seemed to souls who were hungry for truth, as light too precious to be received. "

Methinks it's about new light being presented in at a Camp Meeting in July of 1889 that was accepted.

Nothing here about how "God does not destroy" the wicked at the end of time.

Q.E.D.

[skyblue888]

As to how the unsaved will be destroyed after the 1,000 years the book of Ezekiel, chapter 28 and G.C.672 make it very clear as to what the language of the Bible truly means.

Satan and his evil angels will fall at the hand of the most violent of the nations.

"Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." G.C.672.

Now this is a direct commentary upon Ezekiel 28:6-8,16-19 which verses tell us how Satan and his angels will be brought down into the Pit which is the lake of fire.

So it is not that the wicked will not perish but be saved in the end (the teaching of universalism) but that at the end of the day, all the unsaved of all ages will agree to put the blame upon Satan and his evil angels for their being lost eternally and God will not prevent them from turning upon them with the fury of demons. Thus they will get a taste of their own medecine. They will reap, at last, what they have been sowing since the very first inception of sin in Heaven and for the last six thousand years. After having spent 1,000 years in idleness and intense suffering, Satan and his evil angels will have been stripped of much of their powers for the Scriptures tell us that they will then have to fight like men. See verses 9 and 10 of Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14:12-17.

In this great battle fire will come from their own midst as we are told in the same chapter 28, verse 18, which fire will finally consume them all. But the language of the Bible is that this fire will come down from God out of Heaven. This language is consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The whole world has been deceived and even the professed people of God, yes, us Adventists, who have been exalted to Heaven in point of privilege, and yet have not discerned the precious light.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obcures His glory from their view." 1 S.M.355.

sky

Below from 1 S.M. 355 . . . REPORT OF CAMP

MEETING AT OTTAWA, KANSAS, PRINTED IN THE

REVIEW AND HERALD, JULY 23, 1889.

"At the Kansas meeting my prayer to God was, that the power of the enemy might be broken, and that the people who had been in darkness might open their hearts and minds to the message that God should send them, that they might see the truth, new to many minds, as old truth in new framework. The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold on the hope set before them in the gospel of Christ. . . . {1SM 355.1}

On Sabbath, truths were presented that were new to the majority of the congregation. Things new and old were

brought forth from the treasure house of God's Word. Truths were revealed which the people were scarcely able to comprehend and appropriate. Light flashed from the oracles of God in relation to the law and the gospel, in relation to the fact that Christ is our righteousness, which seemed to souls who were hungry for truth, as light too precious to be received. {1SM 355.2}

But the labors of the Sabbath were not in vain. On Sunday morning there was decided evidence that the Spirit of God was working great changes in the moral and spiritual condition of those assembled. There was a surrendering of the mind and heart to God, and precious testimonies were borne by those who had long been in darkness. One brother spoke of the struggle that he had experienced before he could receive the good news that Christ is our righteousness. The conflict was severe, but the Lord was at work with him, and his mind was changed, and his strength renewed. The Lord presented the truth before him in clear lines, revealing the fact that Christ alone is the source of all hope and salvation. "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1:4, 14).

"Light flashed from the oracles of God in relation to the law and the gospel, in relation to the fact that Christ is our righteousness, which seemed to souls who were hungry for truth, as light too precious to be received. "

Methinks it's about new light being presented in at a Camp Meeting in July of 1889 that was accepted.

Nothing here about how "God does not destroy" the wicked at the end of time.

Q.E.D.

Light flashing from the oracles of God: the law in relation to the righteousness of Christ, His character, the nature of His government and the principles of His dealing with sin since the law is a transcript of His character.

If we have the righteousness of Christ we have the law written upon the fleshly tablets of our hearts and we cannot but be like Him.

sky

[Q.E.D.]

The whole world has been deceived and even the professed people of God, yes, us Adventists, who have been exalted to Heaven in point of privilege, and yet have not discerned the precious light.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obcures His glory from their view." 1 S.M.355.

sky

[Samie]

...

In this great battle fire will come from their own midst as we are told in the same chapter 28, verse 18, which fire will finally consume them all. But the language of the Bible is that this fire will come down from God out of Heaven. This language is consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

sky

sky, this is why I was asking on whose side are you. On the side of Scriptures that say the fire is from God both in Ezek and Rev, or on Robert's side who says the fire is not from God, because God will not simply do it?

From your perspective, is the fire from God or from their midst, or you aren't sure?

What is wrong with God sending fire to consume any, some or all of us? He owns us. We are His possession. If I own a small island, and I decide to burn my house and all I own there to put an end to an epidemic, what is that to you? Don't I have power over what I own?

And sin is more than an epidemic in this small 'island' called earth in the vastness of the whole of universe that God owns.

[Q.E.D.]

As to how the unsaved will be destroyed after the 1,000 years the book of Ezekiel, chapter 28 and G.C.672 make it very clear as to what the language of the Bible truly means.

In this great battle fire will come from their own midst as we are told in the same chapter 28, verse 18, which fire will finally consume them all. But the language of the Bible is that this fire will come down from God out of Heaven. This language is consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

sky

Not But. AND. The elements will melt with fervent heat.

Still nothing about "God does not destroy any one."

Q.E.D.

[Felix Florimon]

Still nothing about "God does not destroy any one."

Q.E.D.

[skyblue888]

If the Testimonies of the Spirit mean anything to us, we ought to pay attention to what is said on this topic (clear statements explain the obscure ones) as the Lord has already explained to us the language of the Bible concerning the principles of His dealing with sin and sinners and they are ever the same.

"The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same." G.C.343.

Notice the following:

"Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.'" E.G.White, The Review & Herald, Vol.4,335.

If this statement alone does not shed precious light on this very important topic, then pray tell me what will?

Let us read the above again and again until the light flashes into the dark chambers of our minds.

"From those who to the end continue in rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power." Ibid,335.

There are those among us who argue that the work of destruction is God's strange work based on the following statement from the SoP:

"The work of destruction is a strange work for Him who is infinite in love." Patriarchs & Prophets,139.

This statement is not saying that God is the destroyer but that the work of destruction which is the work of Satan is a strange work to Him who is infinite in love.

"Satan is the destroyer." Testimonies, Vol.6,388,389.

Now what is God's strange work?

"God's great and strange work is to redeem and save, and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." R&H, Vol.3,583.

sky

[Gibs]

Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Isa 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy…. {DD 43.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

If the Testimonies of the Spirit mean anything to us, we ought to pay attention to what is said on this topic (clear statements explain the obscure ones) as the Lord has already explained to us the language of the Bible concerning the principles of His dealing with sin and sinners and they are ever the same.

"The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same." G.C.343.

Notice the following:

"Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.'" E.G.White, The Review & Herald, Vol.4,335.

If this statement alone does not shed precious light on this very important topic, then pray tell me what will?

Let us read the above again and again until the light flashes into the dark chambers of our minds.

[skyblue888]

Gibs, in the last several weeks you have been quick to quote from the SoP and that profusely on the subject of overcoming in an effort to make it clear what the Lord expects from us. I commend you for that but what about what the Testimonies have to say about the subject of destruction?

I have just posted crystal clear statements that to my understanding cannot be misconstrued, clearly explaining even how holy angels do the work of destruction upon the impenitent thus explaining the language of the Bible: They obey the command from God to "No longer combat Satan in His efforts to destroy" and then even the Lord Himself says, "I will no longer interfere to prevent Satan from doing his work."

The verses you just quoted are explained by the above statements I have just quoted and chapter 28 of Ezekiel and 14 of Isaiah confirm the truth that Satan is the destroyer.

And now with the statement you just added you must put side by side with this one:

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection... He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." E.G. White, Manuscript Releases, Vol.14,3.1.

This is what the language of the Bible means. We have no excuse. It is clear as crystal. Let us not turn a deaf ear or a blind eye to these statements which explain the other statements.

Just as Scripture is explained by Scripture, the Testimonies are explained by the Testimonies. (1 S.M.42)

sky

[Gibs]

Sky I don't post this to differ but to show that ultimately it is Yahweh who is the power and Love that must do a strange thing, kill and destroy sin, evil and sinners. He is the great empowering Commander and the Holy Angels obey and know He is righteous and have no hesitation to do His will.

De 32:39 ¶ See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

De 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

De 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

De 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Isa 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

"God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy…". {DD 43.4}

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

What you want to notice from this verse is the "indignation" used here as there many of them but this particular one is "hot".

Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

That "indignation" is,

za`am zah'-am

from 2194; strictly froth at the mouth, i.e. (figuratively) fury (especially of God's displeasure with sin):--angry, indignation, rage.

So the verse is telling us, "I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of His "za'am" for at the time appointed the end shall be.

" While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the holy city. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. [Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.] While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, he is to his people both a sun and a shield. [Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.] {GC88 673.3}

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.” [Revelation 21:1.] The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC88 673.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Gibs, it is impossible to love a god who threatens you with torture & death. The only relationship you can have with such a god is that of fear and/or reward.

Love to God is the very foundation of religion. To engage in His service merely from hope of reward or fear of punishment would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship. [PP 523]

[Gibs]

Rober, You will need to,

Talk back to God and EGW, I just posted scripture and some EGW comments on the subject. What do you want me to do wrest around if possible that Love must not destroy sin sinners and all evil. Would Yahweh really be Love if He didn't? For sure not!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

[Robert]

Would Yahweh really be Love if He didn't? For sure not!

.

Again, you can't love a god who threatens violence. Anyone claiming love for such a god is a liar.

[Robert]

Love to God is the very foundation of religion. To engage in His service merely from hope of reward or fear of punishment would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship. [PP 523]

Did you get that? Love to God is the foundation. Anything short of love is hypocrisy - it's a lie!

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love.

In other words you can't love someone you fear. It's impossible. All you do will be based on fear and appeasing an angry god.

[skyblue888]

Gibs, its like you and others are trying to convince others of something they already believe in and that is that sin and sinners will be destroyed. The language of the Bible is unmistakable that they will be.

Personally I think that sufficient evidence has already been shown both from the Bible and the SoP as to how we are to read and understand the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government and the principles of His dealing with sin.

The statements I have used in my last posts are not obscure statements that could be construed one way or another but crystal clear statements which shed precious light upon this controversial topic. It is controversial for the simple reason that "tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

Here is something else that should really get our attention just as the other statements that have been quoted should have.

In Psalm 2 we find the Father speaking to the Son, saying:

"Ask of Me, and I shall give you the nations for Your inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." Psalm 2:8,9.

I could use these words and so could you or anyone else for that matter to prove the point that many are trying to prove and that is that the judgments of God come directly out from the Lord. This is the traditional understanding but it is an understanding, we are told, that has been blinded by misinterpretation.

We have read a little while ago how Mrs. White was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection.

Notice these words:

"God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.4,1171.

A minute ago we read from Psalm 2 that Christ will break the nations with a rod of iron. The above statement plainly tells us that this "rod" represents the destructive agencies of Satan.

God's restraining power is progressively withdrawn and there comes the time when it will be fully withdrawn and Satan will have complete control of the impenitent. This is another way of saying the wrath of God will be complete. (Rev.15:1)

When probation shall close, the Lord will no longer interfere to prevent Satan from doing His work which is the work of destruction and He will say to the angels: No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing His work.

I really don't know how the Lord could have explained Himself more clearly. Do you?

sky

[Gibs]

Sky,

I'll sure be glad when it is over if I'm even to live through it which is really but a few short yrs but it will be so bad it will seem an eternity to bear. But we must have faith and know if it be our cup to see it through. He will enable us and will be with His Treasured overcomers to the finish.

Far more than you and I will realize this fact I feel sure as we get into the yr 2013.

We must be faithful witnesses for Him to His Truth, Word as it is being perverted too much and needs ironed out that the Truth shines forth to all who will receive.

Witnesses for all points of truth and especially that He alone is God.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

There is gods many today in this world and many don't realize an allegiance to one or more.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

Like Q.E.D. you guys really dont take the time to read.

A few min ago I posted this:

The point is that the Bible does say that God sends fire down from heaven upon the impenitent,,, that He even sent the flood,,,, that He sends strong delusions to those who do not have the love of the truth,,, that He sent fiery serpents,,, evil spirits... ect etc

There is no question about what the Bible says. What we are trying to determine with the Bible and the SoP is what this language means and we have already seen some examples as to what it means.

This is nothing but the words of a man who has gone too far to an extreme, thereby giving him a wrong understanding of scripture. And now wants others to do the same.

When you take a few apparent contradictions, and surmise from it that the Bible NEVER means what it says, then you have gone too far to an extreme.