The Wrath of God

[doug yowell]

Scare tactics never produce genuine faith in God...they produce hypocrisy and self-righteousness.

[Robert]

Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

BTW, hate is sin. "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." 1 John 3:15

So God sins...He hates. Let's just take it as it reads!

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Okay, not only does God practice favoritism (which again is sin), but He harden those He hates. He forces their wills...He hardens their hearts and makes them His enemy for so He can take them down. He does this so He can be the man and get the glory. That's pride and ego, which are sins also....

Again, just taking it as it reads.

[Robert]

...You mean a God who warns those whom He loves of the consequences of their decisions to continue in rebellion....

In other words, I am God, do it my way or I'll kill you? That sounds like force to me....I thought God was about human free will?

You see the way I present God is you should be afraid not to have Him in your life! Why? Because without Him there's trouble, but not from Him. It's in the absence of God that bad things happen! Shall I quote Deut. again? Yes, I shall:

17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come on them; so that they will say in that day, Haven't these evils come on us because our God is not among us?

Keep in mind that from the human perspective, God looks angry. So from our point of view God is angry. In fact when Christ was crucified, Isaiah says, "But he (Jesus) endured the suffering that should have been ours, the pain that we should have borne. All the while we thought that his suffering was punishment sent by God."

[Q.E.D.]

In other words, I am God, do it my way or I'll kill you? That sounds like force to me....I thought God was about human free will?

You see the way I present God is you should be afraid not to have Him in your life! Why? Because without Him there's trouble, but not from Him. It's in the absence of God that bad things happen!

Hmmm. . . Which God shall we choose?

Door A. "I am God, Love me or I'll kill you!"

Door B. "I am God, Love me or I will abandon you and let Satan Kill you!"

Don't you just love this stuff!!!

Q.E.D.

[Robert]

Door B. "I am God, Love me or I will abandon you and let Satan Kill you!"

No...God loves you more than Himself. The cross forever proves this fact. Christ was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that His enemies could take his place in heaven. If you reject this love, God cannot force His love on you. Therefore He gives you up. Otherwise God would be forcing Himself on the unbeliever. Big difference, QED

[Q.E.D.]

Door A. "I am God, Love me or I'll kill you!"

No...God loves you more than Himself. The cross forever proves this fact. Christ was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that His enemies could take his place in heaven. If you reject this love, God cannot force His love on you. Therefore He gives you up. Otherwise God would be forcing Himself on the unbeliever. No real, quantitative, or substantial difference, Robert!

Don't you just love this stuff!!!

Q.E.D.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Scare tactics never produce genuine faith in God...they produce hypocrisy and self-righteousness.

But they can also produce a serious consideration of the consequences of one's actions in the coming final judgment. If God is anything like you guys present Him

[skyblue888]

Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. {KJV)

There it is....According to Isaiah God creates evil.

I understand and appreciate what you are doing here. If we are to take it as it reads and stop there, of course, we are left to believe that God directly creates evil and we are not to question what He does.

But He wants us to reason with Him by comparing Scripture with Scripture and statement with statement for those who believe the SoP.

This is the way I have come to understand this language just as when we read that He hardened Pharaoh's heart.

He does create evil but not directly. He does harden the heart but not directly.

He does in the sense that He sends the good, always, but if the blessing is not appreciated, if the light that He sends is resisted, and even ridiculed, then a second revealing is less clearly discerned and the darkness increases until it is night in the soul, and then men begin calling light darkness and darkness light and thus the truth is turned into a lie.

Just as we are told that the judgments of God do not come directly out from the Lord upon the impenitent (though the language of the Bible seems to indicate otherwise) God does not directly create evil anymore that He directly hardens the heart or blind the eyes of men.

I don't know what the difficulty is in understanding this, especially when the Lord has explained Himself.

"It is not God that blinds the eyes of men or hardens their hearts. He sends them light to correct their errors, and to lead them in safe paths; it is by the rejection of this light that the eyes are blinded and the heart hardened. Often the process is gradual, and almost imperceptible... When one ray of light is disregarded, there is a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions, and the second revealing of light is less clearly discerned. So the darkness increases, until it is night in the soul. Thus it was with these Jewish leaders. They were convinced that a divine power attended Christ, but in order to resist the truth, they attributed the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. In doing this they deliberately chose deception; they yielded to Satan, and henceforth they were controlled by his power." D.A.322,323.

So the Lord creates spiritual darkness, He creates evil, He hardens the hearts and blinds the eyes of men by sending them light, by doing good to them.

sky

[skyblue888]

As the children of Israel heard the cry of the perishing ones, they fled at a great distance from them. They knew that they were, in a measure, guilty; for they had received the accusations against Moses and Aaron; and they were afraid that they should also perish with them. The judgment of God was not yet finished.. A fire came from the cloud of glory, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. They were princes; that is, men generally of good judgment.... But they were not reconciled to the destruction of those wicked men; and the wrath of God came upon them, and destroyed them also. {1SP 301.1}

They must be led to renounce the debasing customs and practices which existed in Sodom and in the antediluvian world, which God destroyed because of their iniquity. {CD 446.3}

Another storm is coming. The earth will again be swept by the desolating wrath of God, and sin and sinners will be destroyed. {PP 101.1}

David knew that it was the will of God that those heathen tribes should be destroyed, and he knew that he was appointed to do this work; {PP 673}

This symbol in the clouds was to confirm the belief of all, and establish their confidence in God; for it was a token of divine mercy and goodness to man; that although God had been provoked to destroy the earth by the flood, yet his mercy still encompasseth the earth. {1SP 77.2}

I guess Ellen White just didn't know how to speak the language of heaven like you sky.

Did she actually think that God did all that destroying, or was the prophet just using the wrong language to describe it, out of ignorance?

___________

Thanks Richard.

I will address this one first:

"Another storm is coming. The earth will again be swept by the desolating wrath of God, and sin and sinners will be destroyed." {PP 101.1}

This is, of course, speaking of the time when probation shall close and the earth will be swept by the desolating wrath of God and sin and sinners will be destroyed. This is also the time when God's wrath is complete. (Rev.15:1)

The Lord has already explained this language:

"When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness (spiritual darkness) covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an Intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent... The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will plunge the inhabitants of the world into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old." G.C.614. *parenthesis mine

Now this statement clearly explains what the wrath of God is in the final destruction of this world.

One more statement. It has already been quoted before but it won't hurt to read it again.

"Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.'" Review & Herald, Vol.4,335.

Now brother, sister, what is the wrath of God when it is complete?

sky

[Q.E.D.]

Hmmmm. . .

"23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost."(Acts 12:23)

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

DREADFUL DEATH

"I saw the beauty of heaven. I heard the angels sing their rapturous songs, ascribing praise, honor, and glory to Jesus. I could then realize something of the wondrous love of the Son of God. He left all the glory, all the honor which He had in heaven, and was so interested for our salvation that He patiently and meekly bore every indignity and slight which man could heap upon Him. He was wounded, smitten, and bruised; He was stretched on Calvary's cross and suffered the most agonizing death to save us from death, that we might be washed in His blood and be raised up to live with Him in the mansions He is preparing for us, to enjoy the light and glory of heaven, to hear the angels sing, and to sing with them.

I saw that all heaven is interested in our salvation; and shall we be indifferent? Shall we be careless, as though it were a small matter whether we are saved or lost? Shall we slight the sacrifice that has been made for us? Some have done this. They have trifled with offered mercy, and the frown of God is upon them. God's Spirit will not always be grieved. It will depart if grieved a little longer. After all has been done that God could do to save men, if they show by their lives that they slight Jesus' offered mercy, death will be their portion, and it will be dearly purchased. It will be a dreadful death; for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross to purchase for them the redemption which they have refused. And they will then realize what they have lost—eternal life and the immortal inheritance. The great sacrifice that has been made to save souls shows us their worth. When the precious soul is once lost, it is lost forever. I have seen an angel standing with scales in his hands weighing the thoughts and interest of the people of God, especially the young. In one scale were the thoughts and interest tending heavenward; in the other were the thoughts and interest tending to earth. And in this scale were thrown all the reading of storybooks, thoughts of dress and show, vanity, pride, etc. Oh, what a solemn moment! the angels of God standing with scales, weighing the thoughts of His professed children—those who claim to be dead to the world and alive to God. The scale filled with thoughts of earth, vanity, and pride quickly went down, notwithstanding weight after weight rolled from the scale. The one with the thoughts and interest tending to heaven went quickly up as the other went down, and oh, how light it was! I can relate this as I saw it; but never can I give the solemn and vivid impression stamped upon my mind, as I saw the angel with the scales weighing the thoughts and interest of the people of God. Said the angel: "Can such enter heaven? No, no, never. Tell them the hope they now possess is vain, and unless they speedily repent, and obtain salvation, they must perish." A form of Godliness will not save any. All must have a deep and living experience. This alone will save them in the time of trouble. Then their work will be tried of what sort it is; and if it is gold, silver, and precious stones, they will be hid as in the secret of the Lord's pavilion. But if their work is wood, hay, and stubble, nothing can shield them from the fierceness of Jehovah's wrath."(1T, 123-125)

Q.E.D.

[skyblue888]

As the children of Israel heard the cry of the perishing ones, they fled at a great distance from them. They knew that they were, in a measure, guilty; for they had received the accusations against Moses and Aaron; and they were afraid that they should also perish with them. The judgment of God was not yet finished.. A fire came from the cloud of glory, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. They were princes; that is, men generally of good judgment.... But they were not reconciled to the destruction of those wicked men; and the wrath of God came upon them, and destroyed them also. {1SP 301.1}

RLH

___________

A fire came from the cloud of glory and consumed two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

It is the same language consistently used in the Bible. In the day of final retribution the language is the same: Fire came from God out of Heaven and consumed them all.

The language is the same throughout. The Lord does not always explain Himself every time this language is used. He does not have to. All He needs to do is to give a clear explanation of what is meant in two or three instances when using that language and the principle of interpretation is thus established.

"In the mouths of two or three witnesses shall the truth be established." 2 Cor.13:1.

We find that, here and there, in the SoP, the Lord has explained this language. Take the case of David for example. In two instances we are given a clear explanation of the language used.

The Lord said to David, "I will raise up evil against you out of your own house." 2 Sam.12:11,12.

When we read this for the first time we don't stop to think that this language needs to be interpreted. We take it as it reads, which we ought to do, but at that point we are far from being aware that the Lord would have us understand this language in a way that is totally different from the traditional way. By close study of the Scriptures it is possible to arrive at the true meaning of this language but for the majority of us the chances for this to happen are very very slim because "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

Immediately following these words, "I will raise up evil against you out of your own house," we read this inspired commentary. "Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them." P.P.739.

In other words, "His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil, so that a train of circumstances will arise which will punish sin with sin." P.P.728.

So the Lord's restraining power is in a measure removed from the agencies of evil and sin is punished with sin but there is coming a time when the Lord's restraining power is fully removed and then it is said that His wrath is complete. (Rev.15:1)

If we understand this we will have no problem in correctly interpreting language like "I will harden Pharaoh's heart." "I the Lord create evil." "God sends them strong delusion." "God sent him an evil spirit." "God sent them fiery serpents." "I will raise up evil." "God sent the flood." "God rained down fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah." "Fire came down from God out of heaven." etc etc

sky

[Q.E.D.]

By close study of the Scriptures it is possible to arrive at the true meaning of this language but for the majority of us the chances for this to happen are very very slim because "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

sky

Just thought folks might be interested in seeing how partial quotes such as the one above in "blue" are often used to support pet theories. Please notice how the word "Tradition" is capitalized as if the quote is a complete sentence standing on its own. ~ Q.E.D.

The Origin of Evil

To many minds the origin of sin and the reason for its existence are a source of great perplexity. They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. And in their uncertainty and doubt they are blinded to truths plainly revealed in God's word and essential to salvation. There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed; hence they find no solution of their difficulties; and such as are actuated by a disposition to doubt and cavil seize upon this as an excuse for rejecting the words of Holy Writ. Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government."(Great Controversy, 1911 edition, Pages 492-493)

Q.E.D.

[skyblue888]

Hmmmm. . .

"23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost."(Acts 12:23)

Q.E.D.

___________

We must not think as a man when we read such passages of Holy Writ for if we do we will be no wiser than the heathen and will see God in a false light clothed in the attributes of Satan.

If the professed people of God, who have been exalted to Heaven in point of privilege, read this passage of Scripture and have no more discernment than the denominations around them do, they will look upon God as a tyrant and if they continue to resist the precious light, in the day of judgment they shall be judged more severely than Sodom and Gomorrah.

This is what happened to the Jewish people.

"The people whom God had called to be the pillar and ground of the truth had become representatives of Satan. They were doing the work he desired them to do, taking a course to misrepresent the character of God, and cause the world to look upon Him as a tyrant." D.A.36.

In one place we are told that the Lord will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience."

The words, "the angel of the Lord smote him" simply means that the protecting angel was given the command to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy and Satan brought a dreadful disease upon him.

sky

[skyblue888]

The word "tradition" was not CAPITALIZED in any way, shape, or form.

"Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

This statement says it all. It is not to be interpreted by uninspired men.

What is the nature of God's government? What are the principles of His dealing with sin?

"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." D.A.759.

"The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government." D.A.22.

"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt or destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." D.A.487.

When we are told that our good and gracious Lord has been presented to the people of God clothed in the attributes of Satan (1 S.M.355), does it not mean that he has been presented to us with the disposition to hurt or destroy those who do not appreciate His work or who act contrary to His ideas?

And has not this happened because "tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

sky

[Gibs]

A short quoute from EGW on His Wrath and who with,

As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luke 17:26.

"I was shown that a terrible condition of things exists in our world. The angel of mercy is folding her wings, ready to depart. . . . The law of God is made void. We see and hear of confusion and perplexity, want and famine, earthquakes and floods; terrible outrages will be committed by men; passion, not reason, bears sway. The wrath of God is upon the inhabitants of the world, who are fast becoming as corrupt as were the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. Already fire and flood are destroying thousands of lives and the property that has been selfishly accumulated by the oppression of the poor. The Lord is soon to cut short His work and put an end to sin. Oh, that the scenes which have come before me of the iniquities practiced in these last days, might make a deep impression on the minds of God's professing people. {Mar 137.1}

As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be when the Son of man shall be revealed. The Lord is removing His restrictions from the earth, and soon there will be death and destruction, increasing crime, and cruel, evil working against the rich who have exalted themselves against the poor. Those who are without God's protection will find no safety in any place or position. Human agents are being trained and are using their inventive power to put in operation the most powerful machinery to wound and to kill. . . . {Mar 137.2}

My brethren and sisters . . . , I make my appeal to you. . . . The lives of many are too delicate and dainty. . . . They think themselves Christians, but they do not know what practical Christian life signifies. What does it mean to be a Christian? It means to be Christlike. . . . Co-operate with God by working in harmony with Him. Expel from the soul-temple everything that assumes the form of an idol. Now is God's time, and His time is your time. Fight the good fight of faith, refusing to think or to talk unbelief. The world is to hear the last warning message. {Mar 137.3}

I do believe that message is beginning to be sounded!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Q.E.D.]

The word "tradition" was not CAPITALIZED in any way, shape, or form.

"Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

sky

That's strange. It looks like a capital "T" on my Dell "UltraSharp" LED monitor. Goofy computers. . .

Q.E.D.

[Guest]

That's exactly what it looks like on my 23" Full HD resolution, (1920 x 1080) HDMI connected, Gateway monitor.

[Guest]

Maybe it really is a capitol "T". That would make the word capitalized in some way, wouldn't it?

[skyblue888]

making the world out of an atom and making an atom out of a world Richard? :)

[Gibs]

Trifles, ifn you fellers want the whole paragraph quote Sky gave of yhar it is,

" To many minds the origin of sin and the reason for its existence are a source of great perplexity. They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. And in their uncertainty and doubt they are blinded to truths plainly revealed in God's word and essential to salvation. There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed; hence they find no solution of their difficulties; and such as are actuated by a disposition to doubt and cavil seize upon this as an excuse for rejecting the words of Holy Writ. Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. {GC 492.1}

Does that prove anything different to ya all?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Q.E.D.]

Maybe it really is a capitol "T". That would make the word capitalized in some way, wouldn't it?

Yeah, I think it would be. Can we get another witness?

" In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."(2 Cor 13:1)

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

That's exactly what it looks like on my 23" Full HD resolution, (1920 x 1080) HDMI connected, Gateway monitor.

Glad to hear that. You saved me about $200 on a new monitor.

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

Trifles, ifn you fellers want the whole paragraph quote Sky gave of yhar it is,

" To many minds the origin of sin and the reason for its existence are a source of great perplexity. They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. And in their uncertainty and doubt they are blinded to truths plainly revealed in God's word and essential to salvation. There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed; hence they find no solution of their difficulties; and such as are actuated by a disposition to doubt and cavil seize upon this as an excuse for rejecting the words of Holy Writ. Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. {GC 492.1}

Does that prove anything different to ya all?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Yes, I think it proves the passage is often misquoted to prop up a pet theory.

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

QED,

What is it you find in the full paragraph quote that changes the point being put forth? What are you driving at anyway?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.