Robert Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 Some have suggested that Jesus came the first time to show the kindly side of God, that when He returns in glory, He will then demonstrate His justice. However, nothing in the gospel record supports that view. Scripture says Jesus is the same "yesterday, today and forever" and that deity doesn't change. (Hebrews 13:8; Malachi 3:6). God cannot and will not require humans to adhere to a standard He rejects for Himself. His commandments form not only the foundation of His government in heaven and on earth; they actually depict His character in words (see Psalm 119:172; Jeremiah 23:6;33:16), as a novelist draws the inner life of characters with the pen. The principle which says "Thou shalt not kill," which Jesus expanded to mean Thou shalt not hate or damage in any way, originates in the heart of God.
Robert Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 Given our traditional view of God, Christians (like their concept of Him) are gentle and kind much of the time, except when the situation seems to call for gossip or destructive criticism or indifference to human woe or venting destructive emotions or taking human life. Isn't this how we see God's ways? The human mind has an extraordinary capacity for kindness, except toward those "demonized" humans we believe God abhors. If we cause those to suffer, it's okay, we think. Doesn't God do the same? Historically, the "church" has carried the traditional view of God to its logical conclusion, by itself burning the opposition. Religious bigots have bloodied the pages of history with unspeakable crimes, which surely flowed out of their picture of God. Jesus predicted two thousand years ago that thus it would be. "The time is coming that whosoever kills you will think that he offers God service," He said (John 16:2). History confirms His prophecy. How could we, as Christians, have been so blind, so callous, so indifferent to human life? Jesus distills the answer down to its core. "These things they will do to you," He continues, "because they have not known the Father nor Me (v. 3). Because Scripture gives so many examples of God's wiping out His enemies, Christians have become confused regarding the interpretation of Jesus' words. They have concluded that when we destroy them, we're doing so as God's agents, but when they destroy us, they are fulfilling this prediction. We see our enemy as God's enemy and ourselves as His sword of justice, because for war to occur in the first place the warriors must be made to see their cause as righteous and the enemy's as evil. Yet is it not possible that Jesus meant that wherever people kill each other in the name of religion, neither side bears the signet of the living God?
cheddar Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 No sooner had God given the Law which said ‘thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not steal’ then he sent the Israelites into the promised land to murder the canaanites and steal their land and possessions. It wasn’t Satan who gave those commands it was God. Or what about the time when God commanded Saul thru Samuel to kill all the people of Amalek including men, women, children and all the animals. Once again you can’t blame that on Satan. What do you do with the warmongering God of the OT? And maybe you didn’t know this but Jesus Christ was the invisible God who led the Israelites all those long centuries. Which means that the same Jesus who said ‘turn the other cheek’ is also the one who said ‘Go smite Amelek and utterly destroy everything they have’. Maybe Jesus has a dark side and he’s not always warm and cuddly like some would have us believe. This is why I like the bible. God does not hide who he is. He shares the good and the bad and leaves it up to us to make a decision and God does have a bad side whether you like it or not.
Robert Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 When Israel compromised by contracting multiple marriages, holding slaves and demanding a king, He did not reject them for it. He tried to install principles and requirements to make the best of a less than perfect situation, likely following the same procedure in regard to their choice to take up arms (Exodus 21:2-11; 1 Samuel 8).
Q.E.D. Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 When Israel compromised by contracting multiple marriages, holding slaves and demanding a king, He did not reject them for it. He tried to install principles and requirements to make the best of a less than perfect situation, likely following the same procedure in regard to their choice to take up arms Exodus 21:2-11; 1 Samuel 8). And that's your best response to Cheddar's post? Cheddar really blew you out of the water on that one Robert! Bigtime fail! Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 When Israel compromised by contracting multiple marriages, holding slaves and demanding a king, He did not reject them for it. He tried to install principles and requirements to make the best of a less than perfect situation, likely following the same procedure in regard to their choice to take up arms (Exodus 21:2-11; 1 Samuel 8). Robert ________ And that's your best response to Cheddar's post? Cheddar really blew you out of the water on that one Robert! Bigtime fail! Q.E.D. ________ No he didn't. The government of Israel at that time was a theocracy which meant that God was the Ruler over Israel in civil and religious affairs. The command ‘Go smite Amelek and utterly destroy everything they have’ was a civil statute in time of war in harmony with the choice they had made to take up arms to defend themselves instead of letting God deliver them in righteousnes as He had done in Egypt. When the Lord delivered them from Egypt they went out unarmed. They did not have to fight their enemies at all and God delivered them gloriously. But after the Red Sea deliverance you find them armed with weapons and fighting with the Amalekites. Where did they get their weapons? The morning after their deliverance they chose to pick up the weapons of the Egyptians soldiers that had washed up to shore. And ever after that they fought with the sword against the perfect will of God. In His love and mercy, God did not abandon them but gave them directions as to how to use the sword against their enemies until they would recognize their mistake. They never did. They fought with the sword even among themselves until they declared, We have no king but Ceasar. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 So in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus' saying to Peter, "Put your sword away. He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword" must have been a hard saying for the way of the sword had been the way of living for the Jews for many centuries. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Q.E.D. Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 Hmmm. . . "25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among *their enemies:) 26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. 27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. 28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men."(Exo 32:25-28) Methinks thar's a whole lot of slayin' goin' on by the direct command of the LORD God of Israel. Q.E.D Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 You just proved the point made earlier. They had elected the sword among themselves and the command of God to Moses was in harmony with their way of doing things, not according to the perfect will and way of God. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Q.E.D. Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 You just proved the point made earlier. They had elected the sword among themselves and the command of God to Moses was in harmony with their way of doing things, not according to the perfect will and way of God. sky The human mind is an amazing thing. . . I off to play with some matches in the woods now, it's 90 degrees outside and it hasn't rained in weeks. Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Q.E.D. Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 You just proved the point made earlier. They had elected the sword among themselves and the command of God to Moses was in harmony with their way of doing things, not according to the perfect will and way of God. sky Hi Sky, I'm back from the roaring fire now, the sirens can be heard in the distance. . . Q.E.D. P.S. And all this time I thought all the LORD God of Israel had to do was "abandon" them, (re ~ the "Oh! how can I give you up" God of Robert.), and the earth would swallow them up or Satan would kill them for God . . . Especially since the LORD God of Israel had just thundered down from Mt. Sinai with His own lips "Thou shalt not kill." and if that wasn't enough He wrote it in stone but since God is God I suppose that it is reasonable for God to command them to "Kill" 3000 of them if He wants to. It's gonna be a long summer. . . Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 While you are playing with matches, remember that this is what the Israelites did for centuries, playing with fire and they perished accordingly. In A.D.70 they died by the sword and their city was destroyed by fire, not at the hand of God but at the hand of Satan who used the Romans to annihilate them all if he could. "The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen... Satan aroused the fiercest and most debased passions of the soul. Men did not reason; they were beyond reason--controlled by impulse and blind rage. They became satanic in their cruelty." G.C.28. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Q.E.D. Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 While you are playing with matches, remember that this is what the Israelites did for centuries, playing with fire and they perished accordingly. In A.D.70 they died by the sword and their city was destroyed by fire, not at the hand of God but at the hand of Satan who used the Romans to annihilate them all if he could. "The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen... Satan aroused the fiercest and most debased passions of the soul. Men did not reason; they were beyond reason--controlled by impulse and blind rage. They became satanic in their cruelty." G.C.28. sky Hi Sky, There wasn't anything in the box that you sent me. Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Guest Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 As the children of Israel heard the cry of the perishing ones, they fled at a great distance from them. They knew that they were, in a measure, guilty; for they had received the accusations against Moses and Aaron; and they were afraid that they should also perish with them. The judgment of God was not yet finished.. A fire came from the cloud of glory, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. They were princes; that is, men generally of good judgment.... But they were not reconciled to the destruction of those wicked men; and the wrath of God came upon them, and destroyed them also. {1SP 301.1} They must be led to renounce the debasing customs and practices which existed in Sodom and in the antediluvian world, which God destroyed because of their iniquity. {CD 446.3} Another storm is coming. The earth will again be swept by the desolating wrath of God, and sin and sinners will be destroyed. {PP 101.1} David knew that it was the will of God that those heathen tribes should be destroyed, and he knew that he was appointed to do this work; {PP 673} This symbol in the clouds was to confirm the belief of all, and establish their confidence in God; for it was a token of divine mercy and goodness to man; that although God had been provoked to destroy the earth by the flood, yet his mercy still encompasseth the earth. {1SP 77.2} I guess Ellen White just didn't know how to speak the language of heaven like you sky. Did she actually think that God did all that destroying, or was the prophet just using the wrong language to describe it, out of ignorance?
Robert Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 Scare tactics never produce genuine faith in God...they produce hypocrisy and self-righteousness. If God is anything like you guys present Him I would rather spend eternity in hell then to be in the presence of such a being.
Robert Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 They must be led to renounce the debasing customs and practices which existed in Sodom and in the antediluvian world, which God destroyed because of their iniquity. {CD 446.3} I already touched on this. It is clear that God abandoned those cities because they refused Him.
Robert Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 I guess Ellen White just didn't know how to speak the language of heaven like you sky. Ellen White is not the final word. She had only a glimmer of the light that was yet to come. You must ultimately make the Bible the standard, not Ellen.
Guest Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 sky still believes in her writings, and I was talking to sky.
Gibs Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 Awe come on guys, who do you think will take care of Satan and his angels and those of the second resurrection. Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 sky still believes in her writings, and I was talking to sky. I never said I didn't, but to conclude that her writing are the end all of all truth is a mistake: The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]
Robert Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. {KJV) There it is....According to Isaiah God creates evil.
Robert Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Ex 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. Apparently God didn't want the Israelite slaves free because He hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't let them go.
Robert Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 1 Kings 22:20 The Lord asked, "Who will deceive Ahab so that he will go and be killed at Ramoth?' Some of the angels said one thing, and others said something else, 21 until a spirit stepped forward, approached the Lord, and said, "I will deceive him.' 22 "How?' the Lord asked. The spirit replied, "I will go and make all of Ahab's prophets tell lies.' The Lord said, "Go and deceive him. You will succeed.' " 23 And Micaiah concluded: "This is what has happened. The Lord has made these prophets of yours lie to you. Wow, the Lord condoning deception. I mean I'm taking these as they read.
Robert Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth (the gospel) and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false (a lie)..... Okay, we know the devil is a liar and a deceiver, but here (again, if you take it just as it reads) God is also a liar and a deceiver. Now do I believe this? No! But you folks who want to take it just as it reads get what you get....You get a God who as the attributes of Satan.
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