Robert Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Which is it? 1] Did God abandon these cities like it states in Hosea, or 2] did He actually produce brimstone and fire and rain it down on these cities? Well, here's another case: So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14). Okay, case closed. God killed Saul with His own hands. He personally took him out. That's how you guys would probably put it. Well, let's read the rest of the story: Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6). Wait, God states that He killed Saul, but we find that Saul committed suicide. Why did God claim that He killed Saul? What did Saul do? He forsook the Lord. He turned His back on God. Since God, who is agape, cannot force and compel, God had to abandon Saul. You see Saul was in battle against the Philistines, only God was not with him. What happened? The Israelites were losing the battle and so instead of being captured and violated Saul committed suicide. Yet God states He did it. Why? Let me suggest a simple governing principle by which we may understand such statements. Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent....
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 "Fire came down from God out of Heaven..." This is the language of Heaven and it is not left to private interpretation. sky I agree. No private interpretation is necessary. I take it exactly as it reads, the same way any 8 year old child would. It means what it says and is not couched in any kind of mystical or symbolic language. Oh, Give me the Bible! Q.E.D. Yes we are to take it as it reads but we are to let the Bible itself be its own interpreter and the Holy Spirit must be our Teacher knowing that one passage is explained by another and one statement by another. 1 Cor.2:13; Isaiah 28:13. "The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Robert Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.... Did God rain down fire and brimstone out of heaven or did God abandon those wicked cities including His protection? The latter.... The same is true at the end of time. God abandons the wicked and His protection from the elements also.... 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens (atmosphere) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: Robert Which is it? 1] Did God abandon these cities like it states in Hosea, or 2] did He actually produce brimstone and fire and rain it down on these cities? Well, here's another case: So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14). Okay, case closed. God killed Saul with His own hands. He personally took him out. That's how you guys would probably put it. Well, let's read the rest of the story: Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6). Wait, God states that He killed Saul, but we find that Saul committed suicide. Why did God claim that He killed Saul? What did Saul do? He forsook the Lord. He turned His back on God. Since God, who is agape, cannot force and compel, God had to abandon Saul. You see Saul was in battle against the Philistines, only God was not with him. What happened? The Israelites were losing the battle and so instead of being captured and violated Saul committed suicide. Yet God states He did it. Why? Let me suggest a simple governing principle by which we may understand such statements. Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.... If we cannot see that, we will continue to argue that the judgments of God come directly out from Him upon sinners when they don't thus misrepresenting His character and the principles of His dealing with men. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: Robert Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.... Did God rain down fire and brimstone out of heaven or did God abandon those wicked cities including His protection? The latter.... The same is true at the end of time. God abandons the wicked - including His protection. This is what is going to take place at the time of the sixth plague when the multitudes of the unsaved will turn against the false whepherds first and then against one another. There will be strife and bloodshed everwhere. The language of the Bible is consistent describing this event as being the work of the "angel of death" of Ezekiel 9. That "angel" is a movement of people, the wicked who will destroy each other when, moments before, they had all agreed to slay God's people. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Robert Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 If we cannot see that, we will continue to argue that the judgments of God come directly out from Him upon sinners when they don't thus misrepresenting His character and the principles of His dealing with men. Bingo!
Q.E.D. Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: Q.E.D. "Fire came from God out of heaven and burned them up." Hosea 11:8 "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboim? Notice the language: How can I give you up? That's abandonment. The four cities that were destroyed when God abandoned the cities of the plain were: 1] Sodom 2] Gomorrah 3] Admah 4] Zeboyim Now go to Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven.... Which is it? 1] Did God abandon these cities like it states in Hosea, or 2] did He actually produce brimstone and fire and rain it down on these cities? HUH??? What do you mean, "Which is it?" I will choose 1 and 2. Is blue a color or is the ocean blue? Which is it? Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Q.E.D, no offense but do you really take the time to weigh in on what is being presented or is prejudice preventing you from being open minded? "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Q.E.D. Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: RLH God has to rid the whole universe of sin. Then God needs to exterminate you because the Bible states you are a sinner. God needs to personally execute you. He needs burn you until you finally die. I thought Jesus Saves. Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Robert Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Q.E.D, no offense but do you really take the time to weigh in on what is being presented or is prejudice preventing you from being open minded? Many like their version of a god who destroys because it fits their own natures. They place sinful, human attributes unto a God of love.
Robert Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Answer: Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law What does the law demand? Perfect, unblemished agape love. Anything outside this the law demands the 2nd death, which is goodbye to life forever with no hope of a resurrection. Jesus experienced the God abandonment death that the sinner who rejects Christ's righteousness will experience.
Robert Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Many like their version of a god who destroys because it fits their own natures. Romans 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace have they not known:
cheddar Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Many like their version of a god who destroys because it fits their own natures. They place sinful, human attributes unto a God of love. And your view of God is like a weak absentee father who's afraid to get his hands dirty. No one here is denying that God is a God of love but he's also a God of justice. Your one-sided view of God leads to universalism and cheap grace.
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Q.E.D, no offense but do you really take the time to weigh in on what is being presented or is prejudice preventing you from being open minded? sky Many like their version of a god who destroys because it fits their own natures. They place sinful, human attributes unto a God of love. Robert _________________________ Mostly because "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492. The whole world has been deceived and even the professed people of God, yes, us Adventists, who have been exalted to Heaven in point of privilege, and yet have not discerned the precious light. "The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obcures His glory from their view." 1 S.M.355. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: Robert Many like their version of a god who destroys because it fits their own natures. They place sinful, human attributes unto a God of love. And your view of God is like a weak absentee father who's afraid to get his hands dirty. No one here is denying that God is a God of love but he's also a God of justice. Your one-sided view of God leads to universalism and cheap grace. I beg you pardon Q.E.D. but the true teaching of the Bible and the SoP on this important topic does not lead to universalism but to the correct understanding of the language of the Bible describing God's actions. Sin and sinners will be destroyed. This is not what is in question here. I believe we all agree on that. What we are studying is How does God destroy sinners? How does He send fire down from Heaven upon the impenitent? How does He send fiery serpents, strong delusions, evil spirits? Unless we understand how we cannot honor Him. Speaking of those through whom the Lord will finish the work in these last days, we read, "They can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them." G.C.593. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Samie Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: Samie And Robert wants us - the Bible-believing ones in this forum - to believe him. hahaha.... You serve a god who is nothing like the God I know of the Bible. ... I guess you were talking in front of a mirror...
Q.E.D. Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Q.E.D, no offense but do you really take the time to weigh in on what is being presented or is prejudice preventing you from being open minded? No offense taken. I cannot be offended. Yes, I have carefully considered it and it violates common sense. Since when do Bible verses have to be modified to the point of no real meaning? "Oh the Bible sez that but it means this. You need to be enlightened and progressive to really understand the Bible." Yes, I get it. Why should I even consider that the core of the earth will ooze up and destroy the wicked when there is not a single Bible verse that even hints at such nonsense. Why should I consider that "God does not destroy anyone" when the Word of God is replete with examples of God doing this very thing? Oh, and I know about the Ellen White quote "God destroys no one." but it does not mean that God will not destroy the wicked in the final day of judgment. In fact take a little time and look at the context of that oft quoted passage of the Sprirt of Prophecy in its entirety . . . "Would that I could make plain to your beclouded senses, my brethren, the great peril you are in. Every action, good or bad, prepares the way for its repetition. How was it in the case of Pharaoh? The statement in Holy Writ is that God hardened his heart, and at every repetition of light in the manifestation of God's power the statement is repeated. Every time he refused to submit to God's will his heart became harder and less impressible by the Spirit of God. He sowed the seed of obstinacy, and God left it to vegetate. He might have prevented it by a miracle, but that was not His plan. He allowed it to grow and produce a harvest of its own kind, thus, proving the truthfulness of the scripture: "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." When a man plants doubts, he will reap doubts. By rejecting the first light and every following ray, Pharaoh went from one degree of hardness of heart to another, until the cold, dead forms of the first-born only checked his unbelief and obstinacy for a moment. And then, determined not to yield to God's way, he continued his willful course until overwhelmed by the waters of the Red Sea. 5T.120.001 This case is placed on record for our benefit. Just what took place in Pharaoh's heart will take place in every soul that neglects to cherish the light and walk promptly in its rays. God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. When a person once neglects to heed the invitations, reproofs, and warnings of the Spirit of God, his conscience becomes seared, and the next time he is admonished, it will be more difficult to yield obedience than before. And thus with every repetition. Conscience is the voice of God, heard amid the conflict of human passions; when it is resisted, the Spirit of God is grieved. 5T.120.002 We want all to understand how the soul is destroyed. It is not that God sends out a decree that man shall not be saved. He does not throw a darkness before the eyes which cannot be penetrated. But man at first resists a motion of the Spirit of God, and, having once resisted, it is less difficult to do so the second time, less the third, and far less the fourth. Then comes the harvest to be reaped from the seed of unbelief and resistance. Oh what a harvest of sinful indulgences is preparing for the sickle! 5T.120.003 Every seed sown produces a harvest of its kind. So it is in human life. We all need to sow the seeds of compassion, sympathy, and love; for we shall reap what we sow. Every characteristic of selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, every act of self-indulgence, will bring forth a like harvest. He who lives for self is sowing to the flesh, and of the flesh he will reap corruption. COL.084.004 God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Gal. 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. COL.085.001 As the seed sown produces a harvest, and this in turn is sown, the harvest is multiplied. In our relation to others, this law holds true. Every act, every word, is a seed that will bear fruit. Every deed of thoughtful kindness, of obedience, or of self-denial, will reproduce itself in others, and through them in still others. So every act of envy, malice, or dissension is a seed that will spring up in a "root of bitterness" (Heb. 12:15), whereby many shall be defiled. And how much larger number will the "many" poison. Thus the sowing of good and evil goes on for time and for eternity. Now twist and turn all that verbage into "God will not destroy the wicked lost in the last day" all you like. But there is not a single sentence in those paragraphs that even hints that Ellen White was making an application of this testimony to the destruction of the wicked by God in the final conflagration on earth. And just to add a little flavor to the mix consider this Ellen White quote from the Desire of Ages. 69 On the Mount of Olives "When He referred to the destruction of Jerusalem, His prophetic words reached beyond that event to the final conflagration in that day when the Lord shall rise out of His place to punish the world for their iniquity, when the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. This entire discourse was given, not for the disciples only, but for those who should live in the last scenes of this earth's history."(DA, 628) Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Please let us stop the sarcasm. If we have the truth we will be tolerant and understanding with others. We must be open minded. Do we really take the time to weigh in on what is being presented? Let us be careful here because we are dealing with a very important subject and there is much light that has already been revealed to us both from the Bible and the Testimonies. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Q.E.D. I can see that your mind has already been made up. If you would really take what has been posted in the last few minutes you would not rush like you are to reply the way you are. You really need to address these last posts. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 The point is that the Bible does say that God sends fire down from heaven upon the impenitent,,, that He even sent the flood,,,, that He sends strong delusions to those who do not have the love of the truth,,, that He sent fiery serpents,,, evil spirits... ect etc There is no question about what the Bible says. What we are trying to determine with the Bible and the SoP is what this language means and we have already seen some examples as to what it means. Are we going to close our eyes to these examples and thus make it impossible for the Lord to teach us or will we take the time to weigh in and pray that we might receive the correct understanding? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Q.E.D. Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: cheddar And your view of God is like a weak absentee father who's afraid to get his hands dirty. No one here is denying that God is a God of love but he's also a God of justice. Your one-sided view of God leads to universalism and cheap grace. I beg you pardon Q.E.D. sky ????? Twernt me. Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Q.E.D. I dont understand ur last post. You quoted from Robert's post and at the end of that you quoted my words "I beg you pardon"?? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Originally Posted By: cheddar And your view of God is like a weak absentee father who's afraid to get his hands dirty. No one here is denying that God is a God of love but he's also a God of justice. Your one-sided view of God leads to universalism and cheap grace. [/quote'] I beg you pardon Q.E.D. but the true teaching of the Bible and the SoP on this important topic does not lead to universalism but to the correct understanding of the language of the Bible describing God's actions. Sin and sinners will be destroyed. This is not what is in question here. I believe we all agree on that. What we are studying is How does God destroy sinners? How does He send fire down from Heaven upon the impenitent? How does He send fiery serpents, strong delusions, evil spirits? Unless we understand how we cannot honor Him. Speaking of those through whom the Lord will finish the work in these last days, we read, "They can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them." G.C.593. sky This is what you should have been quoting. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Samie Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Whose side are you on, sky? Universalism is WRONG! Because it tells us whatever we do heaven is our ultimate destiny. And that God is not going to do anything to harm us even in the final analysis because it is contrary to His character, and this is what Robert is peddling. I say NO, because Scriptures say NO likewise. God is a God of love. NO doubt. He had through Christ already made us holy (Heb 10:10), attached us into the body of His Son (Eph 2:11-19), does not impute any sin currently committed (2 Cor 5:18, 19) since this had been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13), continually justifies us (Rom 4:25), and says He will NOT REMEMBER our sins (Heb 10:16,17). But in the final analysis, HE will execute judgment (Rom 2:2-6), through Christ (2 Cor 5:10), WHO Himself said He will reward every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). To the overcomers, eternal life (Rom 2:5-8; Rev 3:5; 21:27); to all others, the wrath of God which is the 7 last plagues (Rom 2:5-8; Rev 15:1) and ultimately the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).
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