The Wrath of God

[Robert]

No real, quantitative, or substantial difference, Robert!

Get real! There's a huge difference.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

No real, quantitative, or substantial difference, Robert!

Get real! There's a huge difference.

No there's not!

Q.E.D.

[Guest]

making the world out of an atom and making an atom out of a world Richard?

:)

[Robert]

A God who forces, compels and therefore sins vs a God who retreats when He is rejected and there's no difference? Me thinks you need to get re-educated.

[Q.E.D.]

In other words, I am God, do it my way or I'll kill you? That sounds like force to me....I thought God was about human free will?

You see the way I present God is you should be afraid not to have Him in your life! Why? Because without Him there's trouble, but not from Him. It's in the absence of God that bad things happen!

Apparently you didn't get it the first time. So here it is again.

Hmmm. . . Which God shall we choose?

Door A. (According to Robert's distorted view of basic Bible doctrine concerning the character of God. ) "I am God, Love me or I'll kill you!"

Door B. (According to Robert's unbiblical view of a spineless, willy nilly, God that is powerless to destroy sin and sinners.) "I am God, Love me or I will abandon you and give you up and let Satan Kill you!"

No real, quantitative, or substantial difference between your 2 views, Robert! Since neither of your distorted views are accurate representations of the true character of God. Your "Door A" view is a straw man and your "Door B" view is an illogical fantasy.

Why is there no real, quantitative, or substantial difference? Because your God of "Door B" allows Satan to kill the sinner and somehow in your mind that keeps your God from being responsible for destroying sinners and violating His own commandmandment of "Thou shalt not kill".

To sum it up for you, In both of your skewed "Door A and Door B" views God is totally responsible for killing the sinner. Your "Door B" view does not absolve God of the act of killing the unrepentant sinner just because God lets Satan do His dirty work.

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

We altimatley belong to one Master or the other. That is, we are with for and of God, Yahweh or we are for with and of Satan.

Satan must ultimatley die the eternal death and those who are with of and for him also.

Now who is the only one who can do this in absolute righteousness? Yahweh, Father of all, who is Love, truth in whom there is no fault or shadow of turning.

And Bros. and Sisters each and every one before the sentence is meted out will bow the knee and confess He is righteous in keeping us or eternally be no more.

Eternally be no more will be the fate of Satan.

God loves even Satan but hates his ways. And since he, Satan will not change his ways and the same of those with him they must die the eternal death.

Sin and rebellion cannot continue to exist in a righteous kingdom and since God TRULLY IS LOVE it will not. He wouldn't be Love if He allowed it to continue and continually destroy. I have had enough of it, have not you all?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Q.E.D.]

Hi Robert,

I took your advice and enrolled in a re-education program. Thanks, so far it's turning out to be a real blessing! I don't quite fit in with the rest of the class yet but after a few more months I should turn out just like you. ~ With Love, Q.E.D.

The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter, had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber; it was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God. {Acts of the Apostles, page 152.1}

This demonstration of divine justice had a powerful influence upon the people. The tidings that the apostle of Christ had been miraculously delivered from prison and death, while his persecutor had been stricken down by the curse of God, were borne to all lands and became the means of leading many to a belief in Christ. {Acts of the Apostles, page 152.2}

Q.E.D.

[skyblue888]

Q.E.D. this statement from A..152 has been used before. It is a fine statement and the language used to describe God's justice is no different. It is consistent throughout the Bible and in the SoP. But we must not ignore (which you seem to be doing) all the other statements that explain that language. If we ignore these statements how could we ever come to a correct understanding of the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin?

You speak as though God lets Satan do His dirty work.

When God has no other choice but to withdraw His restraining power from the agencies of evil and to leave the sinner without protection from the malice and enmity of Satan, this is no dirty work on the part of God left for Satan to do. It is in the nature of the great controversy that it be so. The sinner is left to the control of the leader he has chosen. This comes as the result of the exercise of free will.

sky

[skyblue888]

This is what happened to the Jewish nation.

"By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control." G.C.35,36.

"Then God withdrew His protection from then and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen." Ibid,28.

This is what happened to king Herod.

sky

[CoAspen]

From observation of this 21 pages of posting, it seems we would rather 'talk' about the 'wrath of God' than the 'love of God'!!! If such a post had been started it would have died a quick death. Or, it would have gone in such a direction that we see now.

Think I understand why EC scratches his head about the postings on these forums....being called a pagan might not be so bad!!! Seems Christians are more in love with a vengeful God!!

[skyblue888]

If you will take the time to read the part of Matt.22 dealing with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. you will see that the language of the Bible is consistent that God was "angry" with the Jews and sent His armies (the Romans) to kill those murderers and to burn up their city.

This is the language.

"But when the King (God) heard of it, he was angry; and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers (the Jews), and burned up their city." Matt.22:7.

Turning now to The Great Controversy,35,36, we find a direct commentary upon these words:

"The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: 'O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;' 'for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.' Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." G.C.35,36.

The Lord could not have made this language of the Bible more clear, or could He?

sky

[skyblue888]

From observation of this 21 pages of posting, it seems we would rather 'talk' about the 'wrath of God' than the 'love of God'!!! If such a post had been started it would have died a quick death. Or, it would have gone in such a direction that we see now.

Think I understand why EC scratches his head about the postings on these forums....being called a pagan might not be so bad!!! Seems Christians are more in love with a vengeful God!!

And we should know why. "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

In order to love God for who He really is we must understand what His wrath is. When we understand what it is, we are in a much better position to appreciate Him and His ways seeing "He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36.

This is, to be sure, one of the most difficult lessons for us to learn because tradition and misinterpretation of the language of the Scriptures have presented God to us clothed in the attributes of Satan.

In the book Christ's Object Lessons, we read,

"It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world it to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." p.415.

Is the message that is to illuminate the whole world with the glory of God a revelation to its inhabitants that God stands toward the sinner as the executioner of the sentence against transgression? Hardly. The world has always seen God in that role, even the professed people of God. Why? Because the language of the Bible has been misunderstood and misinterpreted.

We are told that God has been presented before the people, even before the people of God, clothed in the attributes of Satan (1 S.M.355) that He hurts and destroys those who do not appreciate His work or who act contrary to His will. (D.A.487)

If the message consisted in presenting Him to the people in that role, what would we be teaching them that they did not already know?

sky

[Gibs]

From observation of this 21 pages of posting, it seems we would rather 'talk' about the 'wrath of God' than the 'love of God'!!! If such a post had been started it would have died a quick death. Or, it would have gone in such a direction that we see now.

Think I understand why EC scratches his head about the postings on these forums....being called a pagan might not be so bad!!! Seems Christians are more in love with a vengeful God!!

Yes this subject "the wrath of God" also brings out He is Love.

No He is not vengful at all but He does know the hearts of all men and He in righteousness destroys many up through the yrs. You surely must realize our God of Love must destroy all sin and sinners. If He didn't the "cancer" of it would not stop until it devours all and it is coming to this point now.

Love which is God, must do away with the sin problem and all who will not put it away. If we too truly have Love we become more godlike as we grow into being full with Him in Love and True Love does no wrong. He don't, never did and we then are of Him with Him and For Him.

This sin and rebellion businesss, it must willingly be put away by each of us who would enter into His Eternal Kingdom. He will not make no one to be sinless as we are to be free and be with Him to put it out of us. He strengthens us that we too may walk as Jesus did but does not make us sinless. We must give our all, His Bride can not in the least have another Master.

Yes God, LOVE must destroy all sin and sinners, He must make an utter end of it. Have you not had enough of it yet? I sure have!

Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Peace and tranquility is coming, just a few more yrs. which starting in 2013, each will seem forever.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Why is there no real, quantitative, or substantial difference? Because your God of "Door B" allows Satan to kill the sinner and somehow in your mind that keeps your God from being responsible for destroying sinners and violating His own commandmandment of "Thou shalt not kill".Q.E.D.

He isn't ultimately responsible! If you push God away through unbelief then you have destroyed yourself, not God. Again, EGW - "God destroys no man"!

Let's say you snitch on a drug dealer. You are relocated and given an undercover cop. You need to keep low in case someone recognizes you.

At first it's great being a couch potato, but after a few months you are bored to tears. So you declare to the man guarding your welfare, "I'm going into town." He says, "No, you can't - it's too risky!". After trying to convince for hours you finally tell him to get lost and that you are going into town anyway.

And so you go to town....And sure enough, you die. Whose fault is it?

Remember, the undercover cop represents God's protection and love. He can't force you not to go into town because love doesn't coerce or compel. He pleads with you, but you insist on the path of doing it your way.

Whose fault is it? God's - no, yours.

[Robert]

Love which is God, must do away with the sin problem and all who will not put it away.

Have you stopped loving yourself? Are you denying self? Are you selfless like Christ? If not, God must do away with you according to your own legalistic, law saturated theology!

[JoeMo]

This is amazing! Are some people on here Shiite or Taliban Adventists? If I didn't know this was a Christian website, I'd swear I was reading something by Ayatollah Khomeini from Iran or same Taliban mullah! It sounds like we're talking more about the Allah of Islam rather than the God of love.

When Phillip asked Jesus to show them the Father, what was Jesus' response?

"7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (John 14:7-9)

How many times did Jesus tell someone, "You horrible sinner! Here, have some leprosy"?

When Jesus defended the woman caught in adultery, He was the only One qualified to cast the first stone, since He was the only One without sin. Did He cast a stone? Did He condemn the woman? No!

How did John define God?

"7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because GOD IS LOVE. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him." (1John 4:7-9)

I admit that God was sometimes wrathful in the OT; but we don't live in the OT anymore. We line under a New Covenant because the ond one is obsolete:

"10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel

after that time, declares the Lord.

I will put my laws in their minds

and write them on their hearts.

I will be their God,

and they will be my people.

11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,

or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I WILL FORGIVE THEIR WICKEDNESS AND WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one OBSOLETE; and what is OBSOLETE and outdated will soon disappear." (Heb. 8:10-15)

Does God draw us through fear and intimidation? NO:

"4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s KINDNESS is intended to lead you to repentance?" (Romans 2:4)

Let's quit trying to "intimidate" people into repentance. If we come to God out of fear, Which God are we coming to? I come to my God out of love and thanksgiving.

I'm not saying that God has absolutley no wrath; but His wrath is stored up to rescue humanity- not to punish it:

"22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." (Matt. 24:22)

Some of you say God kills out of love. God is my Father! If I am supposed to become like God, should I kill my disobedient children out of love? How about just "hurt" them a little?

God was wrathful in the OT because His chosen people chose legalism over relationship at Sinai. Will we make the same mistake? SIN is the cause of death - not God:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23)

As I've stated before; if you want to be judged by your ability to perfectly obey the Law, go for it! Out of His respect for your free will, He will judge you by that standard.

Me - I choose to believe and trust in my salvation solely by the grace of Jesus Christ; and use that same grace to overcome - not fearing punishment.

"30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then SIN will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!" (Ezek. 18:30-32)

"9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2Pet.3:8)

Heavenly Father, please forgive us for misrepresenting you as a God of wrath; for you are a God of love who sent His only begotten Son to die for us while we were yet enemies!

[Robert]

Some of you say God kills out of love. God is my Father! If I am supposed to become like God, should I kill my disobedient children out of love?

Oh, smack!....

[JoeMo]

Love your emoticon!

[Gibs]

Well now is the time you must come to realize God cannot save in sin. He saves from sin in the past by forgiveness at true repentance and then from committing the sins over and over again by His coming and dwelling in you if you will cooperate.

That what it is, cooperation and most don't want to do that but conjure up the scriptures to make it look like God will just up and make them sinless and He just isn't going to do that until one comes and surrenders all and is broken of his proud spirit and becomes one He can dwell in.

You all have it all wrong if you think the way of salvation has changed from the beginning. The same is required now as before Jesus died on the cross. The Lord God does not and never did change His requirements and He never will. If He changed you could not trust Him.

God is not double minded as men are,

Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

He has no wrath to the repentant sinner who has come and been broken and now walks with Him, but woe unto him who will not, His Presence is a consuming fire to them.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I'm not double-minded; I will never go back to believing that the law saves me. Only the grace of Jesus Christ can save me. I'm every bit as much as an overcomer as you are. The difference is that I overcome by the grace of God in partnership with the Holy Spirit - not in my own self-righteousness.

When Hebrews says:

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (Heb. 6:4-6)

and

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Heb 10:26-29)

the author isn't talking about breaking the commandments after we're baptized. He's talking about returning to the Old Covenant after we have experienced grace. When we return to the Law, we're saying Jesus' sacrifice isn't good enough - that we need to do more in order to save ourselves. We trample Jesus' sacrifice underfoot and account His grace as nothing. Read the whole book.

God does not save me "in my sin" - He saves me from my sin by giving me the grace to overcome; because I'll never overcome it on my own. I never said grace was free; or that we are free to sin so that grace may abound. Please don't twist my words.

I'm not "conjuring up" scripture. It's there in the Book. Read it and see for yourself.

[Gibs]

True the law never saved anyone, Christ does, but it is His way and not the "way" men have made of it. Men want to be saved and hold onto sin and that cannot be. If we hold onto sin we will meet with the wrath of Love, God. Love does have wrath and Jesus did have wrath! First a word from EGW whom you all may receive over me,

" We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891." {TDG 175.2}

Now a word of wrath from Jesus who spoke stronger here than John the Baptist,

Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mt 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Mt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mt 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Mt 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Mt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Then men make the Way so wide the whole world could flow into Heaven on it but hear Jesus,

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

We have plenty of false prophets, teachers of a false theology of savation saved in sin and they will meet the wrath of Love.

When we have Love and we look at those commandments they are our love as they are His. If they are grievious to one it proves they truly don't have Love.

He wants all to be overcomers and made it easy for all to do, if we will just cooperate with Him, He in His Love empowers us. Does He dwell in you? If so you have no problem, just do His will and it is found His Yoke is easy.

What is a consuming fire to the wicked is a blanket of surrounding Love to the righteous.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Even John the Baptist and Elijah, two of the greatest prophets had seen God in a false light but those who give the last message of mercy to the world will see God as He really is for "In order to endure the trial before them, they must understand the will of God as revealed in His word, they can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them." G.C.593.

Notice the following:

"Like the Saviour's disciples, John the Baptist did not understand the nature of Christ's kingdom... He had looked for the high places of human pride and power to be cast down. He had pointed to the Messiah as the One whose fan was in His hand, and who would thoroughly purged His floor, who would gather the wheat into His garner, and burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Like the prophet Elijah, in whose spirit and power he had come to Israel, he looked for the Lord to reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire...

And now from his dungeon he watched for the Lion of the tribe of Juda to cast down the pride of the oppressor (the Romans), and to deliver the poor and him that cried. But Jesus seemed to content Himself with gathering disciples about Him, and healing and teaching the people. He was eating at the tables of the Publicans, while every day the Roman yoke rested more heavily upon Israel, while king Herod and his vile paramour worked their will, and the cries of the poor and suffering went up to heaven...

To the desert prophet all this seemed a mystery beyond fathoming. There were hours when the whisperings of demons tortured his spirit, and the shadow of a terrible fear crept over him. Could it be that the long-hoped for Deliverer had not yet appeared?.. D.A.215,216.

John the Baptist had misunderstood the language of the Bible as recorded in Isaiah 40:4, as Elijah had, as the disciples of Christ did, and it is also misunderstood by us today.

Notice the following:

"The works of Christ not only declared Him to be the Messiah, but showed in what manner His kingdom was to be established. To John was opened the same truth that had come to Elijah in the desert, when 'a great and strong wind rent the mountains and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake; and after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire;' and after the fire, God spoke to the prophet by 'a still small voice.' 1 Kings 19:11,12. So Jesus was to do His work, not with the clash of arms and the overturning of kingdoms, but through speaking to the hearts of men by a life of mercy and self-sacrifice." D.A.217.

The light that was revealed to Elijah in the cave and to John the Baptist in his dungeon is the same light that needs to be revealed to us in the last days of this earth's history.

In the night of spiritual darkness, God's word goes forth, "Let there be light." C.O.L.415.

sky

[Gibs]

And here is a word picture of His very soon coming,

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I apologize for my rant on you in my last post. It was rude and unkind. You and I and Sky have debated on other threads before. From the consistency of your (plural) posts, I truly believe that you are sincere. Please believe that I also am sincere. I believe in overcoming all sin as much as you do. I just believe it is a privilege and a benefit of being "in the family" rather than an obligation. I have been much more successful in overcoming on my present path than I was on the legalism path. Concentrating on God's love for me and the power He freely gives me through His grace rather than obedience as a prerequisite for salvation has given me freedom and power I never had as a legalist. I was in the same place you were for 30 years; and it only brought me guilt and shame. I now have a much closer walk with my God than I did then; and I am progressively gaining victory over sin in my life - just like you probably are. Please forgive me for my self-righteousness and boorishness.

Be Blessed,

JoeMo

[Gibs]

JoeMoe,

I come far from taking to the legalist path. Legalism is to fall from the narrow way off one side and liberalism is to fall from the narrow way to the oposite side.

SDAdventism has fallen with the fallen churches on that. Yes it is a fine line and the way is not found but by the few. And it will be found Jesus gave us the truth with that statement.

I am very unpopular as it is not wanted today to fight against liberalism. Well I must as we who love Him want to please Him and to please Him we do His Will. Our will must be killed, the old man must die that the new might come to life in Him and He in us

The truth of this matter will escape the wrath of God and instead be blanketed in His love. Our pleasure must be to walk with Him and Love His way and become our way.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.