The Wrath of God

[cheddar]

I admit that God was sometimes wrathful in the OT; but we don't live in the OT anymore. We line under a New Covenant because the ond one is obsolete:

This is true with respect to the covenants but not true as it concerns God's character. The old covenant was faulty not God.

The bible says that God never changes - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.

This means that the OT was a perfect expression of God's character just as the NT was a perfect expression of God's character. Do you think that God went thru a growing cycle where he started out vengeful and then later on when Jesus shows up he’s more mellow?

One area I disagree with the 1888 people is that they always say that fear is a bad motivation and while this may be true on the surface, ‘the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom’. A healthy fear or respect for God will do wonders for spiritual growth. There’s a difference between being afraid of God and having respect for him.

[JoeMo]

Fear empowers the devil like faith empowers God. I read in God's Word that for many Bible heroes, their faith was imputed to them as righteousness. I pray the same for all of us, because our righteousness is as filthy rags. None of us are righteous - no, not one. I pray that, regardless of where we are on our path to the Kingdom, that we may be unified in our goal to bring the Kingdom of God to earth, so that He may bring us to His Kingdom.

As much asI have refused to quote or acknowledge EGW, she did say some great things. One of them went something like this: The church, as weak and frail as it may be, is the apple of God's eye.

I'm not talking about a denomination or a bricks-and-mortar institution, I'm talking about us who passionately love the Lord and eagerly await His coming.

May God bless us all;

JoeMo

[skyblue888]

We all know how one day Christ's disciples asked Jesus to call fire down from heaven in order to consume a village of Samaritans who had refused to put Him up for one night. But Jesus rebuked them by saying that they did not know of what spirit they were of.

The disciples must have been shocked when they heard that because they thought that the Messiah would reveal Himself as a God that answereth those who do not appreciate His work by fire. (D.A.215)

This occurence alone should cause us to re-assess our thinking as to the way we have read and understood so many passages of Scripture influenced by traditional misinterpretation of these passages.

We too are like the disciples of old and like John the Baptist and Elijah. We too have misinterpreted the language of the Bible in regard to the second coming of Christ believing that the wicked will be directly consumed by the brightness of His coming.

How many wicked people do you believe will still be alive once the seven last plagues will have done their destructive work remembering that the last three plagues will be universal? During the sixth plague the wicked will turn on each other and there will be strife and bloodshed everywhere on the earth and those who survive this awful plague will have to face the seventh plague, sixty-pound hail falling everywhere on the globe and if there are any who somehow manage to survive the hail, they will have to face the biggest earthquake ever.

By the time Jesus appears the wicked will have already been destroyed. Since they had resisted and rejected the light of His glory during the loud cry message they were left without any protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. It is in that sense that they will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming which first comes in the form of a message to illuminate the whole earth, a message said to be illuminating in its influence and saving in its power.

By the rejection of this message and by persecuting the bearers of that message, they will have forced God's protection to be withdrawn from them and thus Satan will have entire control of them. I believe wholeheartedly that it is in that sense and in that sense only that the wicked will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming while the wrath of God will be complete during the seven last plagues. (Rev.15:1)

sky

*Those wicked who will be raised in a special resurrection just before Jesus appears in the cloud of heaven will flee to the mountains and hide in caves and they will be destroyed by the mountains falling upon them.

[Gibs]

To balance the sheet of our thinking

At the same time thinking a little further down the road, which will be a "little" time for the saints who will then have eternity when the second resurrection occurs. The dead "damned" ones will be raised and then Satan gathers them and his angels in a useless attempt and then what does God do?

He sends out a fire that consumes them all and Satan and his angels and they are ashes on the earth.

Then the earth is made new, our new glorious home where there will be sin no more,

Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Na 1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Hey Sky,

Nice post - you pose some interesting questions. The one that intregues me the most is "How many wicked people do you believe will still be alive once the seven last plagues will have done their destructive work remembering that the last three plagues will be universal?"

I'm sure you have concluded by now that I am not a "traditional" Adventist. So here goes some more evidence of that.

I believe that there will possibly be a few wicked people alive on earth at Christ's 2nd coming; and that the millenium could be here on earth, not in heaven. Furthermore, sin will not come to an end at the second coming - it will persist through the milleneum. Here's why:

1. " 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." (Rev. 12:5)

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron" (Rev. 19:15) If all the wicked are dead, why would Jesus need to rule with a rod of iron?

"15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. [Note that it says many - not all.]

17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. (Is. 66:15-20)

If there are no more wicked people on earth (or if the milleneum were in heaven), why would the Lord need to rule with an iron rod? Why would the redeemed need to bring people from faraway lands to who have not yet heard of Jesus' fame; or witnessed His glory?

______________________________________________________________

2. Rather than post all of Rev. 20 here, I invite you to read it. Note the sequence of events:

A. Satan is bound for 1,000 years; and the righteous live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years (vs. 2-4).

B. Satan shall be loosed from his prison to gather from the nations to make war against God (vs. 7-9). Note that there is no mention of the unrighteous dead being raised yet. If there are not wicked people alive on earth at the end of the milleneum and the unrighteous dead are not yet raised, who is Satan going to gather?

C. Fire comes down from heaven, and destroys the wicked, and Satan is cast into the lake of fire (vs. 9-10).

D. THEN the unrighteous dead are raised and judged after the living wicked are destroyed AFTER Satan is cast into the lake of fire (vs. 12-13).

E. It appears that AFTER these events, death and the grave are thrown into the lake of fire, along with those whose names are not written in the Book of Life (vs. 14-15).

I know this is not our tradtional view, and I ain't insisting that I'm right; but that is how I read the scripture.

What thinkest thou?

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

The words you quoted from Matt. 23:23-29 were given to the Pharisees, who chose to live by the Law rather than through a relationship of love and grace. You illustrate my point - that if one chooses to live by the Law, they will be judged by the Law.

Why was Jesus so gentle and merciful with those who chose to chose to live in relationship with Him? Why did Jesus - who was without sin - not cast the first stone or condemn the woman caught in adultery?

[Gibs]

JoeMoe,

When we truly have Love, those commandments are our hearts desire to do and are what we do do. No longer need they be writen to be our schoolmaster. Now the moment we fall away from love and commit a sin we are back under it to schoolmaster us back if possible. When we fall back and commit a sin we are dead again and as Paul says, and the law revives. Soon as we are fully filled with His Love we are alive again in Him and that law is in our hearts and we do it and it is no yoke.

Jesus didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it and He did, He kept it and we can too, when filled with His Love it has become our topmost desire to do. It is the Law of the Love of God.

And of course if we become His and have His Love they are our law too!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

You didn't answer my question. I agree that we keep the commandments out of love (and by the power of God's grace). Jesus gives us grace and forgiveness out of His love for us. I'll even agree that we have to suffer some consequences when we willfully and continually defy God's Law out of rebellion against Him.

So again, why was Jesus so hard on the Pharisees and so easy on His followers and the woman caught in adultery (and for that matter, the thief on the cross)?

[Gibs]

JoeMoe,

For the simple reason He knows the heart of whether it is repentant or not and whether the will is surrendered. Then when He sees it is then they are His and He loves His own. Those who don't fall broken of will to Him, He still loves but like us with a disobedient child they must know of your displeasure of their actions and then you try to get them to see the wrong of them. When they will not then you show stronger displeasure and only God can handle it then so we must put them in His Hands. Yah still loves Satan and in the end must destroy him as he would destroy in Gods Kingdoms as long as he was allowed to live.

Re 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

I come far from taking to the legalist path. Legalism is to fall from the narrow way off one side and liberalism is to fall from the narrow way to the oposite side.

SDAdventism has fallen with the fallen churches on that. Yes it is a fine line and the way is not found but by the few. And it will be found Jesus gave us the truth with that statement.

I am very unpopular as it is not wanted today to fight against liberalism. Well I must as we who love Him want to please Him and to please Him we do His Will. Our will must be killed, the old man must die that the new might come to life in Him and He in us

The truth of this matter will escape the wrath of God and instead be blanketed in His love. Our pleasure must be to walk with Him and Love His way and become our way.

Amen!

[Robert]

... we can too,...

It's easy to give lip service. It's easy to say "we can too"! The question is, why aren't you living Christ's life?

[Robert]

He loves His own.

No, that's self-love. "Even sinners love those who love them". Christ loved His enemies. In fact He was willing to say goodbye to life forever so His enemies could take His place.

[Q.E.D.]

Desire of Ages, Chapter 78 "Calvary"

"On the cross he sees the many great religionists shoot out the tongue with scorn, and ridicule the Lord Jesus. He sees the wagging heads. He hears the upbraiding speeches taken up by his companion in guilt: "If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us." Among the passers-by he hears many defending Jesus. He hears them repeat His words, and tell of His works. The conviction comes back to him that this is the Christ. Turning to his fellow criminal he says, "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?" The dying thieves have no longer anything to fear from man. But upon one of them presses the conviction that there is a God to fear, a future to cause him to tremble. And now, all sin-polluted as it is, his life history is about to close. "And we indeed justly," he moans; "for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this Man hath done nothing amiss." (Desire of Ages, page 750)

Hmmm. . . "...there is a God to fear, a future to cause him to tremble...for we receive the due reward of our deeds."

Q.E.D.

[Guest]

The question is, why aren't you living Christ's life?

You don't know that he isn't. So you should probably stop pretending to be the judge, because you're not.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

He loves His own.

No, that's self-love. "Even sinners love those who love them". Christ loved His enemies. In fact He was willing to say goodbye to life forever so His enemies could take His place.

Yes it is absolutely true, He loves His ownn. Yes and I have made it clear in many posts God loves even Satan and all who are disobedient sinners and yet must destroy him and those of him if they will not come unto Him and repent. Yes He would have every last soul come and repent and be saved but they will not to.

He shows His Great Love for His Obedient ones by watching over them and keeping them unto Himself.

De 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

De 28:9 The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Little children sing, "Jesus loves me this I know" and us old duffers can sing it too because it is true.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

... we can too,...

It's easy to give lip service. It's easy to say "we can too"! The question is, why aren't you living Christ's life?

Robert, My surrender to Him of my will is full and complete, I will to withhold nothing. I desire to do His entire will and my love is as His for I love each and every commandment, not one of them is a yoke and is light.

Yes they are in my heart, wouldn't need to read them as they are part of me, He indwelling in me has strenthened me that is my pleasure to do His complete will. My desire is to be with Him, of Him and for Him in all things.

He will be the judge of how well I've fought the battle and whether I've won the race.

But I'm telling you now and all, There is nothing that can keep me or any of you from winning that race as long as we stay in Him and He in us.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

And finally,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

I desire to do His entire will and my love is as His for I love each and every commandment, not one of them is a yoke and is light.

The law doesn't care about how mush you desire to keep it....The law doesn't pass out credit for effort, no, the law says obey me perfectly in every detail! Your actions must be selfless; your motives pure. Are you doing this?

[Robert]

You don't know that he isn't.

Yes I do know it....How? The Bible:

Romans 3:22 There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned (pass tense) and fall short (present, continuous tense) of the glory of God (His agape love).

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one"

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Ecc 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

Ellen White:

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

[Robert]

Hmmm. . . "...there is a God to fear, a future to cause him to tremble...for we receive the due reward of our deeds."

Q.E.D.

You read these things with preconceived ideas. Yes, we need to fear being outside God's love and protection. Fear not having God in your life because a day is coming when God will have to abandon those who reject Him. Look what happened to Christ when God the Father abandoned His Son. Look what happened when He abandoned Jerusalem. Look what happened when He abandoned Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: RLH

You don't know that he isn't.

Yes I do know it....How? The Bible:

Romans 3:22 There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned (pass tense) and fall short (present, continuous tense) of the glory of God (His agape love).

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one"

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Ecc 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

Ellen White:

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

Robert,

That is why every last one of us needs a Saviour. And now that He Jesus has made it so we may have His Divine Nature we too can if we will be the overcomer we must be to be in His Kingdom.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Thanks for that last statement, Robert. It is a beautiful statement confirming what has been said all along and that is that true righteous ones in Christ do not boast of anything let alone of any righteousness of their own. Take the 144,000 for example. They glory in Christ, His righteouness is their boast. We know that these will reflect Christ's character fully and during the time of Jacob's trouble we are told that they will have a deep sense of their unworthiness (E.W.282) and their only hope will be to trust wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. (P.P.203)

Robert, did you not notice that the apostle Paul in Romans 3 is quoting from Psalm 14? Read the Psalm again and you will see that these Scriptures show the contrast between those who say in their hearts, "there is no God," and the trusting people of God.

"The fool has said in his heart,

'There is no God.'

They are corrupt, They have done abominable works,

There is none who does good.

2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,

To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.

3 They have all turned aside,

They have together become corrupt;

There is none who does good,

No, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,

Who eat up my people as they eat bread,

And do not call on the Lord?

5 There they are in great fear,

For God is with the generation of the righteous.

6 You shame the counsel of the poor,

But the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!

When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people,

Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad."

If we quote Romans 3 without going back to the source where it was taken from, we can get a wrong impression which is that Paul is saying that there is not one righteous individual upon this earth or that there never has been and never will be a righteous individual or people upon this earth.

This is misleading because we know from Hebrews 11 that God has had righteous people in every generation and that the 144,000 will be such a people through living faith.

sky

[Robert]

If we quote Romans 3 without going back to the source where it was taken from, we can get a wrong impression which is that Paul is saying that there is not one righteous individual upon this earth or that there never has been and never will be a righteous individual or people upon this earth.

That's what Paul is saying.....No matter how much you grow in grace, you are not measuring up to the perfection of Christ. He, Christ, kept the law. He was selfless His whole life. We still retain self...we are not free of self-seeking. Proof:

"Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin (our bent to self), we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge."

Here's how we will think & act in heaven:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

How will we seek the happiness of others?

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

In other words agape love has no self-seeking and self-interests in it. It is an unconditional love that gets nothing in return. There is no bent to self in it. We simply live not for our own interests, but for the interests of others.

That's what the law basically says: "Love (agape) your neighbor as you love yourself." In other words we naturally, sinfully love ourselves - now take this self-love and bend it out towards your neighbor. That's agape.

[skyblue888]

You are totally avoiding the context of Psalm 14.

Suit yourself Robert.

sky

[Robert]

You are totally avoiding the context of Psalm 14.

Suit yourself Robert.

sky

I see the context....But even with God in your life you are imperfect. Ellen White even states this:

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

There's a marked contrast between Christ and us.....He is perfect, we are imperfect. If you banking on what He does in us to merit us heaven, well, that's a subtle form of legalism.

The last generation of Christians "love not their lives even unto death". They have been cut off by the world. They have no place to lay their heads. These will experience sinless living in sinful flesh, but they will not know it. It's the ultimate fruit of resting in Christ's perfect work of redemption. They, like all of us, get into heaven by the imputed righteousness of Christ.

[Robert]

BTW, we've drifted from the subject....