The Wrath of God

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

This is way off subject - do any of you know why the "Love of God" thread was locked down?

Off subject...?

Robert, he's just asking about a thread being closed off. That's why he's saying that his question is

[phkrause]

JoeMo, I'm not sure why its locked. Maybe a moderator or Stan can help out here.

[Guest]

I understand your meaning, but ultimately sin brings death. Sin is a destroyer.

Take AIDS....Folks know it's a killer, yet they have multiply sex partners anyway. So not only is sin a killer...it makes you stupid.

[Tom Wetmore]

This is way off subject - do any of you know why the "Love of God" thread was locked down?

Lack of respect for the topic and the repeated requests to stop going off-topic. At the request of the topic originator it was locked.

[Gibs]

Do any of you believe the wrath of God will be in vain? When sin and sinners are not be be any more for all eternity what do you suppose He must do that no one else can do?

The answer, He must destroy it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

If God's word is true and to be believed, His wrath will not be in vain. Ultimately, sin, evil, death, and the grave will all be destroyed. I don't think God exercises His wrath to punish the unrighteous; I think He does it to save the righteous. Here's why:

"22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matt. 24:22)

RLH asked "So who burns everything up at the end, including the elements of the heavens? The sun, the moon and surrounding planets etc. Does it all just self ignite?"

I believe that God indeed burns up all of the present creation up and creates a whole new universe. Man has no conception of how serious His sin was - it corrupted all of creation, not just the earth. Chaos reigns throughout creation (in the physical realm, at least). The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says that, if left alone, chaos (entropy) in the universe will increase until the universe burns itself out. To prevent this, God must "create all things new.

"19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." (Rom. 8:19-22)

Assuming evil is not an entity in itself (rather, it is simply the absence of good), could it be that God does not actually destory evil;, but simply makes everything "good" ? Hence there is no evil, because "everything is good" (i.e., there is no absence of good since everything is good). Does that make any sense at all?

[Guest]

But you just said He burned everything up. That included Satan and all the evil angels, and all the wicked unrepentant people. Everyone who was clinging to sin.

Now you're saying He doesn't destroy the evil. But He just did. It can't be both ways.

[Robert]

So who burns everything up at the end, including the elements of the heavens?

From where does disease come? God?

From where does death come? God?

How about calamities? God?

If these come from God then He is the author of all these things. Are you sure that's what you want me to believe?

[Gibs]

Yes JoeMo, everything God made was good and He created all beings free moral agents with a will of their own and He will not change that. Only those who have given their own free will to be of His will can inherit His eternal Kingdom. We must of ourselves do that now in this last end of probationary time. He leaves us free to do so or not to do so. He does not change our will or make our will to be of Him, we must give it in the here and now.

We are as the unfallen angels in the respect of having a free will. They all could choose to rebell also but only a third did.

Yah can see whether our free will is set solid or not for eternity that we would be safe subjects for His Kingdom.

And we are told by Jesus himself that number is the few. Why oh Why? Because most will not fall on Him and be broken of the prideful heart and self. The full will must be given or surrendered of us as He will not force us. We will always have a free will as all His subjects are and all will always be.

Free men and women in Jesus Christ forever and eternally.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

From where does disease come? God?

From where does death come? God?

How about calamities? God?

I'm not sure what you are getting at with those questions. Those are all things that can happen on their own in this sinful world, as a direct result of sin. Not so with the destruction that comes at the end.

[Robert]

Now you're saying He doesn't destroy the evil.

"Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin." [EGW]

Sin is not tangible. It's a principle opposite God's agape love.

"Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law (based on agape) is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its (sin's) punishments. [EGW]

Sin pays in death; the Bible is clear:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world (the human race), and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned (in Adam)-- 13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses....

What Paul is saying is that the law wasn't posted until Moses, yet folks were dying. So it wasn't the curse of the law that brought death, rather it was sin. Hence death through sin.

Again, sin (a principle) pays in death.

Go to Romans 1:27

In just the same way--neglecting that for which nature intends women--burned with passion towards one another, men practising shameful vice with men, and receiving in their own selves the reward which necessarily followed their misconduct. [Weymouth New Testament]

AIDS doesn't come from God. It is a result of sin. Hence sin is self-destructive. The results of sin can self-detonate.

[Gibs]

This quote is for SDA's who hold with EGW and we all know Jesus's coming is at the very door. Also that to the saints that happy day but to the rebellious wrath and they work to hide from His burning Presence, The quote,

" When Christ shall come the earth will tremble before Him, and the heavens will be rolled together as a scroll, and every mountain and every island will be moved out of its place. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people. Gather My saints together unto Me; those that have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice. And the heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is judge Himself" (Psalm 50:3-6). In view of the great day of God, we can see that our only safety will be found in departing from all sin and iniquity. Those who continue in sin will be found among the condemned and perishing. {FW 116.5}

The Fate of Transgressors

John saw the fate of those who choose the path of transgression: "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:15-17). {FW 117.1}

A terrible doom awaits the sinner, and therefore it is necessary that we know what sin is, in order that we may escape from its power. John says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). Here we have the true definition of sin; it is "the transgression of the law." How often the sinner is urged to leave his sins, and come to Jesus; but has the messenger who would lead him to Christ clearly pointed out the way? Has he clearly pointed out the fact that "sin is the transgression of the law," and that he must repent and forsake the breaking of God's commandments? . . . {FW 117.2}

God could not alter one jot or tittle of His holy law to meet man in his fallen condition; for this would reflect discredit upon the wisdom of God in making a law by which to govern heaven and earth. But God could give His only-begotten Son to become man's Substitute and Surety, to suffer the penalty that was merited by the transgressor, and to impart to the repentant soul His perfect righteousness. Christ became the sinless sacrifice for a guilty race, making men prisoners of hope, so that through repentance toward God because they had broken His holy law, and through faith in Christ as their Substitute, Surety, and righteousness, they might be brought back to loyalty to God and to obedience to His holy law. {FW 117.3}

Christ's Righteousness Makes Obedience Possible

It was impossible for the sinner to keep the law of God, which was holy, just, and good; but this impossibility was removed by the impartation of the righteousness of Christ to the repenting, believing soul. The life and death of Christ in behalf of sinful man were for the purpose of restoring the sinner to God's favor, through imparting to him the righteousness that would meet the claims of the law and find acceptance with the Father. {FW 118.1}

But it is ever the purpose of Satan to make void the law of God and to pervert the true meaning of the plan of salvation. Therefore he has originated the falsehood that the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary's cross was for the purpose of freeing men from the obligation of keeping the commandments of God. He has foisted upon the world the deception that God has abolished His constitution, thrown away His moral standard, and made void His holy and perfect law. Had He done this, at what terrible expense would it have been to Heaven! Instead of proclaiming the abolition of the law, Calvary's cross proclaims in thunder tones its immutable and eternal character. Could the law have been abolished, and the government of heaven and earth and the unnumbered worlds of God maintained, Christ need not have died. The death of Christ was to forever settle the question of the validity of the law of Jehovah. Having suffered the full penalty for a guilty world, Jesus became the Mediator between God and man, to restore the repenting soul to favor with God by giving him grace to keep the law of the Most High. Christ came not to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them to the very letter. The atonement of Calvary vindicated the law of God as holy, just, and true, not only before the fallen world but before heaven and before the worlds unfallen. Christ came to magnify the law and to make it honorable. {FW 118.2}

I hope many are moved by that read as I am.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

The results of sin can self-detonate.

Let's use Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of self-detonation:

Keep in mind, "Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them (Admah & Zeboyim) ...were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 1:7)

Scripture describes the surrounding area before destruction fell on these cities:

"Now the Valley of Siddim was full of asphalt ['bitumen,' RSV] pits" (Genesis 14:10), suggesting some type of igneous activity occurring within the earth's crust. Today "the shores around the Dead Sea are covered with lava, sulfur, and rock salt. Gases escape from the surface of the water" (World Book Encyclopedia, 1954, Vol. 4, p. 1891).

Note the existence in this scenario of all the ingredients necessary to destroy these cities in a great fiery conflagration. Bitumen, asphalt, oil and gas. Another name for "brimstone," which Scripture says God "rained" upon these cities is sulfur, a major export of this region today. One need only consider the swiftness with which the ancient city of Pompeii met its doom via volcano to know something similar could have happened to these cities in such a volatile location.

Is this how God created this world (asphalt pits)? No! Then it is the result of sin. What did God do?

Hosea 11:8 "How can I give you up (abandon you), Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I treat you like Admah? How can I make you like Zeboyim? My heart is changed within me; all my compassion is aroused.

He abandoned those cities. His protection went with Him. Hence God was holding back the results of sin in the area of the Valley of Siddim. He was holding back the results of sin.

[JoeMo]

He creates the universe new after He burns everything up?

I don't know - I haven't thought it all the way through. I don't even know if I could think it all the way though. I'm just kinda throwing stuff out there. God said how it would happen in general in Revelation 20 - 22. I don't pretend to understand it all. Do you have any ideas or thoughts thamainitain the integrity of God's Word?

[Guest]

He creates the universe new after He burns everything up?

I don't know - I haven't thought it all the way through. I don't even know if I could think it all the way though. I'm just kinda throwing stuff out there. God said how it would happen in general in Revelation 20 - 22. I don't pretend to understand it all.

I don't either. It's just that when God says He is going to do something in His written word, I believe it. I don't have to parse the language to make it say that God isn't going to do something.

Not saying you do that, but there are some here, and they know who they are....I don't want to mention any names, but Sky, and Robert, are heading up that charge.

(I said I didn't want to. I didn't say I wouldn't)

[Robert]

It's just that when God says He is going to do something in His written word, I believe it.

Well, the Bible can't be understood by our human intellect. Otherwise it looks like a book of massive contradictions.

[Robert]

It's just that when God says He is going to do something in His written word, I believe it.

Well, in my opinion, you should question things that seem contradictory. The Holy Spirit then can guide you....

Take for example the following:

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)

[Guest]

Note the existence in this scenario of all the ingredients necessary to destroy these cities in a great fiery conflagration. Bitumen, asphalt, oil and gas. Another name for "brimstone," which Scripture says God "rained" upon these cities is sulfur, a major export of this region today. One need only consider the swiftness with which the ancient city of Pompeii met its doom via volcano to know something similar could have happened to these cities in such a volatile location.

But for you to make the assertion that that's how it happened, when the Bible doesn't, is bad hermeneutics, to say the very least.

Some would use much stronger language to describe what that is.

[Robert]

But for you to make the assertion that that's how it happened, when the Bible doesn't, is bad hermeneutics, to say the very least.

But it does....You just have to read everything in context. Again, look at Hosea:

"How can I give you up (abandon you), Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I treat you like Admah? How can I make you like Zeboyim? My heart is changed within me; all my compassion is aroused.

These are two of the cities that went down with Sodom and Gomorrah. Four cities were destroyed. How? Because God actually rained down fire and brimstone on these cities? Or did those wicked, unbelieving cities push God away?

I take the latter as an answer. It makes sense knowing God's character.

Deut 31:17 ....I will forsake them, ....and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

[Guest]

I take the latter as an answer. It makes sense knowing God's character.

So you think it is in God's character to lie?

[Robert]

How can I hand you over (give you up), Israel?

Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate....

Luke 21:5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 "As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." 7 "Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"....20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

What happened? The Jewish leadership had fully renounced Christ....They even covered up the resurrection. What did God do? He gave them up....Years later (70AD) disaster!

Who did it? Not God, He had hid His face....His protection was gone....

[Robert]

So you think it is in God's character to lie?

Look, God isn't lying....He can't lie. You see sin wouldn't exist if God had not allowed Lucifer to build his kingdom based on the love of self. You see the love of self sounds very positive. The greatest love of all is learning to love yourself. Sounds wonderful, until put to the test.

So God had to allow Lucifer to advance his system of self to prove to the universe that God's kingdom, based on agape, is the better system.

Because God has allowed Lucifer to advance his system of self God actually takes the blame for all the evils that come out of it. Why? He's ultimately in control. Otherwise God would have never created Lucifer.

But is God really to blame? No! God assumes the blame (as in the buck stops here) until the day of Atonement. Then the blame if placed on Satan.....

[Robert]

I know some of you do not like Pastor Sequeira, but I ask you to read the following with an open mind:

The Day of Atonement

[JoeMo]

Talk about the Wrath of God -

Those "wonderful Christians" from the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas are threatening to come to Denver to demonstrate at the memorial service for the theatre shooting victims tomorrow night. They will be preaching that this is just the beginning of God's wrath being poured out on America for tolerating gays and lesbians (they didn't use those words). They are thanking God for sending the shooter; and praying for more occurrences like this.

REALLY?? Is that what God's wrath is all about? Are God's people called to (most of whom are not even gay, I would guess) in their deepest sorrow and grief?

Is that what they straight and narrow is all about? If God does indeed have that kind of wrath ...

(I'd like to say something very unchristian, but I won't). May God judge them as they are judging. I am VERY upset about this - sorry folks!

[Robert]

Sounds like these Christians are taking on the character of god...the god of this world.