The Wrath of God

[Guest]

Those Baptists sure are a misguided bunch. Not unlike Robert and pastor Seroquell.

Seriously though, they shouldn't be doing that!

[JoeMo]

Amen Robert,

I don't ever recall Jesus talking like that. It is very difficult for me not to heap judgement and condemnation upon them. I know Jesus loves them as much as He loves me; but I sure as heck don't feel like praying for those pieces of poop right now!

[Robert]

Not unlike Robert and pastor Seroquell.

Thanks, bud...I love you too...

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

Not unlike Robert and pastor Seroquell.

Thanks, bud...I love you too...

I'm trying to keep you from burning in hell my friend. But you make it such an uphill battle. :)

[Naomi]

Talk about the Wrath of God -

Those "wonderful Christians" from the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas are threatening to come to Denver to demonstrate at the memorial service for the theatre shooting victims tomorrow night. They will be preaching that this is just the beginning of God's wrath being poured out on America for tolerating gays and lesbians (they didn't use those words). They are thanking God for sending the shooter; and praying for more occurrences like this.

REALLY?? Is that what God's wrath is all about? Are God's people called to (most of whom are not even gay, I would guess) in their deepest sorrow and grief?

Is that what they straight and narrow is all about? If God does indeed have that kind of wrath ...

(I'd like to say something very unchristian, but I won't). May God judge them as they are judging. I am VERY upset about this - sorry folks!

As well you should be!

[JoeMo]

In my humble "liberal" opinion, the Westboro Baptist Church is the ultimate end of where so called "Christians" who use judgement and condemnation to intimidate people into blind subservience to and angry and wrathful God will end up. Subservience out of fear is what the antichrist is all about. What leads us to salvation - fear of God's wrath or the kindness of God? What did Jesus predominantly show when He was hear on earth - love, mercy, and grace or anger, wrath, and judgement?

There is a vast difference between blind subservience to God out tof fear of His wrath and willing service to Him out out of gratitude for His love , mercy, and grace. If all God wanted was blind subservience to his every whim and compulsion, He should of created a race of robots programmed to please.

God is a "family man"; and He wants love and relationship from us. He wants a bride and children - not a bunch of slaves. If we could be saved by our works, Jesus need not have ever come. But we cannot perfectly keep God's Law 100% of the time (especially in our past). Show me anyone who did or does for their whole life, and I'll eat my words. Personally, Ive never met anyone who meets those standards; and I don't know anyone who has met someone that has.

If I have to go through eternity being on guard every minute to make sure I don't make my cruel and disciplinary Father angry, I'd just as soon go into oblivion. If I'm taking a risk trusting in trusting my loving Father to see the righteousness of my perfect "Big Brother" in me, then so be it. Given a choice between erring on the side of wrath or erring on the side of grace, I'll take grace every time.

Blessings to you all, Brothers and Sisters,

JoeMo

[phkrause]

Talk about the Wrath of God -

Those "wonderful Christians" from the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas are threatening to come to Denver to demonstrate at the memorial service for the theatre shooting victims tomorrow night. They will be preaching that this is just the beginning of God's wrath being poured out on America for tolerating gays and lesbians (they didn't use those words). They are thanking God for sending the shooter; and praying for more occurrences like this.

REALLY?? Is that what God's wrath is all about? Are God's people called to (most of whom are not even gay, I would guess) in their deepest sorrow and grief?

Is that what they straight and narrow is all about? If God does indeed have that kind of wrath ...

(I'd like to say something very unchristian, but I won't). May God judge them as they are judging. I am VERY upset about this - sorry folks!

[phkrause]

In my humble "liberal" opinion, the Westboro Baptist Church is the ultimate end of where so called "Christians" who use judgement and condemnation to intimidate people into blind subservience to and angry and wrathful God will end up. Subservience out of fear is what the antichrist is all about. What leads us to salvation - fear of God's wrath or the kindness of God? What did Jesus predominantly show when He was hear on earth - love, mercy, and grace or anger, wrath, and judgement?

There is a vast difference between blind subservience to God out tof fear of His wrath and willing service to Him out out of gratitude for His love , mercy, and grace. If all God wanted was blind subservience to his every whim and compulsion, He should of created a race of robots programmed to please.

God is a "family man"; and He wants love and relationship from us. He wants a bride and children - not a bunch of slaves. If we could be saved by our works, Jesus need not have ever come. But we cannot perfectly keep God's Law 100% of the time (especially in our past). Show me anyone who did or does for their whole life, and I'll eat my words. Personally, Ive never met anyone who meets those standards; and I don't know anyone who has met someone that has.

If I have to go through eternity being on guard every minute to make sure I don't make my cruel and disciplinary Father angry, I'd just as soon go into oblivion. If I'm taking a risk trusting in trusting my loving Father to see the righteousness of my perfect "Big Brother" in me, then so be it. Given a choice between erring on the side of wrath or erring on the side of grace, I'll take grace every time.

Blessings to you all, Brothers and Sisters,

JoeMo

[Q.E.D.]

The Wrath of God. . .

"To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32:30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked."(Desire of Ages, page 107)

Oh! The Wonderul Mysteries of God!

Q.E.D.

[Tom Wetmore]

In my humble "liberal" opinion, the Westboro Baptist Church is the ultimate end of where so called "Christians" who use judgement and condemnation to intimidate people into blind subservience to and angry and wrathful God will end up. Subservience out of fear is what the antichrist is all about. What leads us to salvation - fear of God's wrath or the kindness of God? What did Jesus predominantly show when He was hear on earth - love, mercy, and grace or anger, wrath, and judgement?

There is a vast difference between blind subservience to God out tof fear of His wrath and willing service to Him out out of gratitude for His love , mercy, and grace. If all God wanted was blind subservience to his every whim and compulsion, He should of created a race of robots programmed to please.

God is a "family man"; and He wants love and relationship from us. He wants a bride and children - not a bunch of slaves. If we could be saved by our works, Jesus need not have ever come. But we cannot perfectly keep God's Law 100% of the time (especially in our past). Show me anyone who did or does for their whole life, and I'll eat my words. Personally, Ive never met anyone who meets those standards; and I don't know anyone who has met someone that has.

If I have to go through eternity being on guard every minute to make sure I don't make my cruel and disciplinary Father angry, I'd just as soon go into oblivion. If I'm taking a risk trusting in trusting my loving Father to see the righteousness of my perfect "Big Brother" in me, then so be it. Given a choice between erring on the side of wrath or erring on the side of grace, I'll take grace every time.

Blessings to you all, Brothers and Sisters,

JoeMo

Likewise...

[Gibs]

Well ye all we don't have long to see that in his soon comming in the clouds just what He will be to those who have never come and made it to be under His Wings.

The Bible and EGW paint a fiery picture of what the Presence of our Holy God does to the impenitent. The Holy One is a consuming fire to the wicked and clasp of surrounding love to the righteous.

The call and teaching of all now and ever is to call people out of sin and find His Way He has made that all may overcome it that they will not be consummed in His Presence.

He is not coming as a man no more to teach and woo, that will soon be over.

It is no time to be preaching smooth things to please itching ears!

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Heed the testimonies SDA's, lot's of them like this one and many far stronger?

"Unless the sacred word is appreciated, it will not be obeyed as a sure, and safe, and precious text book. Every besetting sin must be put away. Warfare must be waged against it until it is overcome. The Lord will work with your efforts. As finite, sinful man works out his own salvation with fear and trembling, it is God who works in him, to will and to do of his own good pleasure. But God will not work without the co-operation of man. He must exercise his powers to the very utmost; he must place himself as an apt, willing student in the school of Christ; and as he accepts the grace that is freely offered to him, the presence of Christ in the thought and in the heart will give him decision of purpose, to lay aside every weight of sin, that the heart may be filled with all the fullness of God, and of his love." {RH, August 21, 1888 par. 12}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

QED,

So, you agree with the philosophy and tactics of the Westboro Baptist Church? I truly do not understand your post. How about some of your own words instead of the words of someone from 150 years ago.

Gibs,

You cab't just take a single verse out of context and quote it as a fearful threat from God, like you did with Hebrews 10:27 above. Here is the entire quote:

"26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

If you read the entire book of Hebrews, it concerns Jesus' sacrifice as being the eternal atonement for all sin, and that the ceremonies of the old covenant (Old Testement) are obsolete, and are replaced with a new covenant - that being the grace and favor of Jesus. If taken in context, the writer is saying that if one denies that the sacrifice of our High Priest Jesus is not sufficient, and they fall back into the old sacrificial system, they trampled the Son of God underfoot, treat as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and insult the Spirit of grace. One should not twist scripture by taking it out of context to justify their own philosophy.

The fact is, Jesus came came to save the world - not condemn it; and when He returns, His primary purpose is not punish the wicked (although they will indeed be punished); it is to save and harvest the righteous.

I may be sketchy with some of the details; but I am staking my eternal existence on trusting God for His grace. I don't want to hear any bovine excrement about how people like me are excusing sin. As I've said before (and EGW also says), there is no excuse for sin. But I still refuse to accept a wrathful, vengeful, angry God just waiting to throw everyone except the very few into the lake of fire.

[Q.E.D.]

QED,

So, you agree with the philosophy and tactics of the Westboro Baptist Church? I truly do not understand your post. How about some of your own words instead of the words of someone from 150 years ago.

Greetings my dearest JoeMo,

Methinks my own words shan't be remembered 150 years from now. . .

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

But balance the ledger please, continue in sin and no more sacrifice for sin, you loose your Redeemers gift, Heb. 10:26,

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Then my friend the next verse applies to the case of that one,

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

His Grace is no longer extended to one wilfully in sin, any with the idea they are under His grace then are living the most shaky presumption there could be.

Yes JoeMo the atonement is there for ALL sin IF you have complied with the Way He has made. Know this, none can and will vary from His Way and be redeemed.

Another point I want to make is that when we get on our knees and confess our past and present sin in TRUE repentance, He sure is TRUE and faithful and you are forgiven.

Now some want to include, all future sin is also. Nope! That would be once saved always saved and won't stand up to the truth of the matter.

Now forgiveness is still there for sure for sin committed latter, if it isn't willful, but again you must fall down and do deep repentance as you have done it again. You have shown you have not a lot of respect of Him to do His Will but a desire to return back, Read,

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

It is a dangerous thing and grievious thing to fall back,

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Never was there a time for smooth things without a balace of the spectrum and now so close to the end it is of utmost importance as anytime now our individual time may be run out.

The cases of the living I'm sure are coming up before Him, our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary in Heaven now.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

There you go again, Gibs, with this "continue in sin" garbage. In the over 200 posts I have made, I have NEVER encouraged you or anyone to continue in sin. I have always maintained that grace gives us the power to overcome; we cannot overcome by our own strength of will. Before it was locked down, someone in "The Love of God" thread said that God's love cannot be explained, it can only be experienced. But to experience it, one must be open to the experience. If all one is open to experience is fear of losing salvation because of disobedience to the Laws on an angry and wrathful God, that will be their only experience outside of direct divine intervention. I pray that intervention over you and all other who are mired in legalism; and in denial that they are legalists.

As far as Hebrews 10:26 goes, if you commit the sin of not believing that Jesus' sacrifice is enough, there indeed is no more sacrifice for sins; and all anyone who believes that the blood of Jesus is not a sufficient sacrifice indeed has nothing to look forward to but the lake of fire; because no one besides Jesus will ever be "good enough" to improve on Jesus' sacrifice.

You are taking the scripture out of context to twist it into proving their own point. Again, read the book of Hebrews in its context of Christ being the all-atoning sacrifice.

I refuse to get into another acrimonious debate with you on this issue right now. We both lose; and so do the members of this esteemed organization. It's obvious that no one can change your "Shiite/Taliban" attitude towards salvation (i.e., if you don't think like me, you're gonna burn) except the Holy Spirit. I pray that He will manifest Himself to you in an unmistakable way, so that you may intimately experience God's love; and abandon your fear and condemnation tactics.

I pray for you,

JoeMo

[Robert]

Quote:

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29.

Here's the thing about Ellen White...she has some great things to say, but she only had limited light. She stated that she only had a glimmer of the light that was to come. So I'm going to question her view here based on what I know of God's character.

Notice what she states above: Sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire.

Quote:

Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence.

That makes no sense. If God is a consuming fire to sin, then Jacob should have died! Jacob wasn't without sin. Keep 1 John 1:8 in mind. So any sin should have rendered him dead.

Sorry, I don't buy it....

[Robert]

Every besetting sin must be put away.

A besetting sin is one you repeat again and again out of habit, but repent of....If we are to overcome all sin in order to gain heaven, then Ellen White is teaching pure legalism.

If any of you wish to be sinless, live Christ's life. Do it now...let God have your natures. No love of self...no self-seeking - live only for others with no thought of yourself. That's agape....That's why we were delivered from under law because no one is measuring up.

Until you live His life, you are hypocrite for even bringing perfection up.

[Robert]

But balance the ledger please, continue in sin and no more sacrifice for sin, you loose your Redeemers gift, Heb. 10:26,

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins....

Context please...context!

Heb 10:6 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

Okay, the knowledge of what truth? What's the context? Please back up to verse 4

...it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; ....9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will (his doing & dying), we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

By Christ's doing & dying we (believers) have been made (past tense) HOLY by the body of Christ once and for all. It doesn't say by our law keeping. So that's the truth Paul had in mind. Now let's read on:

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses (the book of the law) died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

So the willful sin here is the rejection of Christ. It's the sin of unbelief.

[Robert]

There you go again, Gibs, with this "continue in sin" garbage.

Here's the bad thing...he doesn't look at himself in the mirror...he looks and preaches to everyone else.

Gibs, until you think not, plan not, and live not for yourself, until you live to be the servant of all, you are a transgressor of the spirit of God's law.

Keep in mind that Jesus "...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." {EGW}

[JoeMo]

Robert,

I LIKE IT!!! It's nice to see somebody else understands the good news. Condemnation, wrath, judgement and destruction just doesn't sound like good news to me. "The Kingdom of God is at Hand"; "God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved" - that sounds like good news. Keep spreading the true Gospel, brother! Don't let anyone discourage you from the path.

We must do it without condemning others - the Law will condemn them. Condemning others puts us on their level as they are (I'm talking about myself here). They also can be saved - they just have a much harder row to hoe.

I look at the example of when God sent the fiery serpents to afflict the Hebrews in the wilderness during the Exodus. All they had to do was "look" upon the serpent on the pole; and they were healed. Sounds too good to be true, right? But it was true. That is a model for us looking upon Christ crucified - believing that He is who He says He is; and believing that He did what He says He did. Sounds to good to be true, right? But it is true!

Blessings to You,

JoeMo

[Gibs]

Robert, JoeMo, If the word I bring out condemns you, so be it. I myself condemn noone. I can only urge you to look deeper than just the smooth things that sooth itching ears. I can see that few here have any love for the straight testimony and that is one EGW makes comment about.

"The Straight Testimony Produces a Shaking"

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.--1T 181 (1857). {LDE 175.3}

There are those among us who will make confessions, as did Achan, too late to save themselves. . . . They are not in harmony with right. They despise the straight testimony that reaches the heart, and would rejoice to see everyone silenced who gives reproof.--3T 272 (1873). {LDE 175.4}

The Lord calls for a renewal of the straight testimony borne in years past. He calls for a renewal of spiritual life. The spiritual energies of His people have long been torpid, but there is to be a resurrection from apparent death. By prayer and confession of sin we must clear the King's highway.--8T 297 (1904). {LDE 176.1}

Gentlemen, 1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

Many hated Jesus for His testimony too and today the part of His testimony not cared for is set aside and a picking and choosing takes over to suit the carnal natures.

Only the smooth things that rquire no surrender of self and pride and will are loved.

Here is a smooth one, do you really love Him, well, Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

It is wanton to be believed today that Jesus done it all and man is to do nothing and no change in life lived is necessary. Man must die a death and that is where most draw the line, no surrender and so no prize!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

If EGW is preaching legalism for preaching none is to continue in sin so was Paul and all the Disciples. Well I not only think not, Man I KNOW NOT, but the gospel truth instead!

Hear Paul,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Hear EGW!

"Christ presented the cross to His disciples. "If any man will come after Me," He said, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." The cross must be lifted by all who receive Christ as their Saviour. God does not forgive sin to encourage us to continue in sin. It is to bring sin to a close, that the divine nature may take possession of the being, and the riches of heaven be poured into mind and heart. God has made every provision that the divine resources may flow freely, and we are to deem no sacrifice too costly in order that the treasures of truth may be given to the world. To fall short of this is a betrayal of sacred trust. {ST, March 1, 1899 par. 8}

Let' quit the fighting the straight testimony and fight the sin things out of us by going to Him and obtaining HIS Divine Nature that we will be victorious with Him and for Him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

God bless you, Gibs.

Best of luck to you on the perfectly keeping God's Law thing. If it works for you, it will be the first time in 2,000 years; and only the 2nd time since man was created. I'll keep trusting in the merits of my Savior. I don't trust my own merits. Neither do I condemn anyone. The Law condemns those who rely on it. The law will not bring eternal life; that is the gift of God. One cannot earn a gift. But hey - that's my opinion (also what is preached by Jesus in the New Covenant). You just keep on trusting in the Law and EGW; and I'll keep praying that the Holy Spirit will turn you from your desperate folly.

[Robert]

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.--1T 181 (1857). {LDE 175.3}

You've got it backwards. What's Laodicea's problem? Answer: Self-righteousness:

17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and you do not know (i.e., they are deceived by their own self-righteousness) that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

Remember Saul before his conversion? How did he view his righteousness?

Phil 3:6 As the the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

After his conversion he counted his righteousness as dung so that he might be found "in Christ". What does he say?

"O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"

Paul wasn't deceived....Those who think that they are righteous are...

[Gibs]

Robert,

Just fall in and pour forth the straight testimony too as a true witnesss. No it is not popular and not many will love you for it. But we are not here to win popularity in this apostate old world fallen into Satan's eager hands.

His soon coming will be wrath very strongly for the impenitent.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.