The Wrath of God

[skyblue888]

What so many at present now are not realizing is that when Christ comes again it won't be like when He was on earth among wicked and righteous men.

He will come as the Holy and Powerful God of All. Evil will be consumed at His Presence, the elements of this wicked world will melt.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

_____________

You know what Gibs? Christ coming as a thief in the night has nothing to do with His coming in the clouds of Heaven. Mrs. White applies His coming as a thief when probation shall close. That's when He comes as a thief. Men will continue to build and to eat and drink unaware that their probation has closed. This is when He comes as a thief. I suppose you have not read that statement yet or may be again you are being selective.

Plus remember that when Jesus appears in the clouds of Heaven He is coming to take His people home after the 7 last plagues will have destroyed everything and the wicked are already dead.

sky

[Robert]

And the passage Robert quoted from Deuteronomy perfectly harmonizes with Mrs. White's statement from Manuscript Releases.

sky

Bingo!

[skyblue888]

We do know that there will be a special resurrection of some wicked people who will witness His coming in the clouds of Heaven but as they see Him getting closer and closer to the earth, they will flee to the mountains and hide in caves and die again there. They will not be directly consumed by His glory.

Now as to the events taking place at the end of the 1,000 years:

"At the close of the thousand years, Christ again returns to the earth. He is accompanied by the host of the redeemed and attended by a retinue of angels. As He descends in terrific majesty He bids the wicked dead arise to receive their doom. They come forth a mighty host, numberless as the sand of the sea... Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: 'Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"

Notice how they are not destroyed by His glory which is the same glory He had at His second coming.

A little later, "They lay plans to take possession of the riches and glory of the New Jerusalem. All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war. Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions. At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van, and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle. Kings and warriors are in his train, and the multitudes follow in vast companies, each under its appointed leader. With military precision the serried ranks advance over the earth's broken and uneven surface to the City of God. By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset...

"Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no men portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance."

And notice again how the vast multitudes of the lost are in their mortal state and they are not destroyed by this glory flooding the whole earth with its radiance!

At this moment we read that "In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven, the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme authority and power, the King of kings pronounces upon the rebels against His government and pronounces justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people...

"As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God...

"Satan, his angels, and his subjects have no power to turn from the picture of their own work. Each actor recalls the part which he performed...

"The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their case; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them...

"Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ...

"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of Heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end (Daniel 11:45's second and final fulfillment). The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and his against his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." G.C.672. *parenthesis mine

This is the great final battle as described in Ezekiel 28:6-8,16-19 coutched in the same language that is consistent throughout the entire Bible that God will destroy Satan and all the wicked and He will. It is said that He will bring strangers upon Satan, the terrible of the nations. In other words, He will not interfere with the wicked when, with the fury of demons, they shall turn upon him and they will draw their swords (implements of war which they had prepared to take the City) and they shall bring Satan and his agents in deception down to the Pit of fire. They will bring them to ashes. This fire which will be triggered from their own midst, otherwise called Satan's midst, will finally consumed them all.

Again the language is consistent that God will bring them to ashes, that He will bring fire from the midst of them, that is, He will not interfere.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

And the passage Robert quoted from Deuteronomy perfectly harmonizes with Mrs. White's statement from Manuscript Releases.

sky

Bingo!

Robert, how I wish you would say "Bingo" to the quotes from Mrs. White in regard to Job and also in regard to overcoming. Like Gibs you tend to be selective too in your choice of quotes from the SoP.

sky :)

[Gibs]

Sky,

Gibs just likes to post the whole thought of whatever is being discussed of Sister Whites testimonies. Sometimes you happen to leave out the very thing I would like to see shine out is all. Sometimes I know it takes off some of the smooth that is wanted here among the mostly liberals here but that is what I'm about to show extreme liberality has got off that narrow way.

That's all,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Sky,

Gibs just likes to post the whole thought of whatever is being discussed of Sister Whites testimonies. Sometimes you happen to leave out the very thing I would like to see shine out is all. Sometimes I know it takes off some of the smooth that is wanted here among the mostly liberals here but that is what I'm about to show extreme liberality has got off that narrow way.

That's all,

Gigs

_____________

Oh come on Gibs. You can't be serious!

You have been quoting and quoting statements about overcoming and I have been quoting and quoting statements which explain how we can attain to righteousness which is just another way of saying how we can overcome.

Plus right now we are talking about the principles of God's dealing with sin, principles that give us the key to interpret the statements that you and others quote about the wrath of God.

sky

[skyblue888]

You used a passage of Scripture talking about Jesus coming as a thief and applied it to His return in the clouds of heaven to destroy the wicked by the brightness of His glory.

Yet we know that the wicked will have already been destroyed by the seven last plagues. The sixth plague alone will take care of the overwhelming majority of those who are still alive after the first four plagues. And if there should remain any alive after the sixth plague, the seventh plague which is also a universal plague, sixty pound-hail and the greatest earthquake ever, will take care of the few who somehow managed to stay alive.

You are not curious as to where Mrs. White puts Jesus coming as a thief in the night before the seven last plagues?

sky

[Gibs]

Trouble is they all live again in the second resurrection what didn't in the first.

I suppose you find then they will all kill one another and I suppose so but they can't kill the spirit and Satan will still be standing to the last man anyway as he is most powerful.

But it is Yahweh Himself who takes them out to never be no more, eternally.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

You have nothing to back up what you are saying. It is your own private interpretation. You fail to take into account that during the 1,000 years we are told that Satan's sufferings will be very intense and this is going to take a toll on him and his evil angels so much so that the prophet Ezekiel says that they will have to fight like men when the terrible of the nations shall turn against him with the fury of demons.

sky

[Q.E.D.]

The Wrath of God

"13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.

15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin."(Lev 24:13-15 King James Version)

"And God abandoned the man that had cursed without the camp and let all the children of Israel stone him. And his sin destroyed him. . . Oh, how can I give you up, O' cursing man?" Universal World Revised Version 2003. Quoted by permission.

Q.E.D.

[skyblue888]

And your point is...

[cheddar]

And your point is...

The point is that there is no way of getting around many of these OT stories on the wrath of God. The man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath is another one.

The argument that God removes his protection and bad things happen is not gonna work here. Did God remove his protection from his own people and then Satan took control and they all stoned him? I don't think so.

God commanded his own people to kill someone. Which is no different than if he had done it himself. The lake of fire will be the final display of God's wrath and he won't command his people or his angel's to do it. He will do it himself.

[Gibs]

Yes Cheddar, It seems if you want the job done right and permanent, you must do it yourself.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

And your point is...

The point is that there is no way of getting around many of these OT stories on the wrath of God. The man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath is another one.

The argument that God removes his protection and bad things happen is not gonna work here. Did God remove his protection from his own people and then Satan took control and they all stoned him? I don't think so.

God commanded his own people to kill someone. Which is no different than if he had done it himself. The lake of fire will be the final display of God's wrath and he won't command his people or his angel's to do it. He will do it himself.

There is a way but the problem is when it is presented we close our eyes and shut our ears like the children of Israel did so many times when God was trying to lead them into safe paths.

The Lord has already told us that we have read these passages of Scripture from the Old Testament with a clouded mind. He has told us, in no uncertain terms, that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning His character, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin.

The understanding of the people of God has been blinded in regard to these passages in the Old Testament for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. In other words, our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people of God clothed in the attributes of Satan and that is why it is so difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory (character) from their view.

I will dare say, on the basis of the above, that the majority of us see God in a false light because tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of these passages of Scriptures from the Old Testament.

We forget that Israel when they were delivered from Egypt did not have to fight. They left Egypt unarmed. If they had trusted God to deliver them from the Amalekites the next day they would not have have to fight either. But fight against them with the sword they did. Where did they get these weapons? From the sea shore. Satan tempted them to pick up these weapons on the morrow after their deliverance from Egypt. That day they elected the sword and they never left it. So the Lord had to deal with them accordingly. His instructions were in harmony with the choice they had made.

The key to properly understanding God's instructions to Israel may be found in the following statements:

"The people looked eagerly to Christ, hoping that He was the One who was to humble the pride of Rome. With sadness Jesus looks into the upturned faces before Him. He notes the spirit of revenge that has stamped the evil imprint upon them, and knows how bitterly the people long for power to crush their oppressors. Mournfully He bids them, 'Resist not him that is evil; but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.'

"These words were but a reiteration of the teaching of the Old Testament. It is true that the rule, 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth,' (Lev.24:20), was a provision in the laws given through Moses; but it was a civil statute. None were justified in avenging themselves, for they had the words of the Lord, 'Say not thou, I will recompense evil.' 'Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me.' 'Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth.' 'If he that hateth thee be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink.' The whole earthly life of Jesus was a manifestation of this principle. It was to bring the bread of life to His enemies that our Saviour left His home in heaven. Though calumny and persecution were heaped upon Him from the cradle to the grave, they called forth from Him only the expression of forgiving love." Mount of Blessing,70,71.

One of the key sentences is "It was a civil statute."

Israel lived under a Theocracy. Even though the Israelites had elected the sword among themselves God did not abandon them to their enemies who could have easily wiped them out from the face of the earth. God gave them civil statutes according to the way of the sword. We know that this is not the Lord's way for later He said, "He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword."

The Israelites never abandoned the sword and they perished by the sword in A.D.70 in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

So we cannot use these passages of Scriptures from the Old Testament to prove that in the end God will do it Himself, that is that His judgments upon Satan and all the unsaved of all ages will come DIRECTLY out from Him upon them because we know that is not the case.

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection." E.G. White, MR 14, 3.1.

This is always true for He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He changeth not.

sky

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

And your point is...

The point is that there is no way of getting around many of these OT stories on the wrath of God. The man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath is another one.

The argument that God removes his protection and bad things happen is not gonna work here. Did God remove his protection from his own people and then Satan took control and they all stoned him? I don't think so.

God commanded his own people to kill someone. Which is no different than if he had done it himself. The lake of fire will be the final display of God's wrath and he won't command his people or his angel's to do it. He will do it himself.

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

There is a way but the problem is when it is presented we close our eyes and shut our ears like the children of Israel did so many times when God was trying to lead them into safe paths.

The Lord has already told us that we have read these passages of Scripture from the Old Testament with a clouded mind. He has told us, in no uncertain terms, that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning His character, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin.

The understanding of the people of God has been blinded in regard to these passages in the Old Testament for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. In other words, our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people of God clothed in the attributes of Satan and that is why it is so difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory (character) from their view.

I will dare say, on the basis of the above, that the majority of us see God in a false light because tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of these passages of Scriptures from the Old Testament.

sky

Please note that the above cannot be established with the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy.

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

We forget that Israel when they were delivered from Egypt did not have to fight. They left Egypt unarmed. If they had trusted God to deliver them from the Amalekites the next day they would not have have to fight either. But fight against them with the sword they did. Where did they get these weapons? From the sea shore. Satan tempted them to pick up these weapons on the morrow after their deliverance from Egypt. That day they elected the sword and they never left it. So the Lord had to deal with them accordingly. His instructions were in harmony with the choice they had made.

sky

Sky, You might be right but . . .

Where is all this in the Bible?

Since when do swords float to the shore?

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

The key to properly understanding God's instructions to Israel may be found in the following statements:

"The people looked eagerly to Christ, hoping that He was the One who was to humble the pride of Rome. With sadness Jesus looks into the upturned faces before Him. He notes the spirit of revenge that has stamped the evil imprint upon them, and knows how bitterly the people long for power to crush their oppressors. Mournfully He bids them, 'Resist not him that is evil; but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.'

"These words were but a reiteration of the teaching of the Old Testament. It is true that the rule, 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth,' (Lev.24:20), was a provision in the laws given through Moses; but it was a civil statute. None were justified in avenging themselves, for they had the words of the Lord, 'Say not thou, I will recompense evil.' 'Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me.' 'Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth.' 'If he that hateth thee be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink.' The whole earthly life of Jesus was a manifestation of this principle. It was to bring the bread of life to His enemies that our Saviour left His home in heaven. Though calumny and persecution were heaped upon Him from the cradle to the grave, they called forth from Him only the expression of forgiving love." Mount of Blessing,70,71.

One of the key sentences is "It was a civil statute."

sky

Please note that all of the above verbage has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is the "man that blasphemed and cursed". The man that "blasphemed and cursed" was not an "enemy of Israel" nor did the incident have anything to do with "revenge" or "avenging" anyone.

Also please note that this was not a "Civil Statute".

Q.E.D.

"10 ¶ And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp;"(Lev 24:10)

"11 And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed."(Lev 24:11)

"13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.

15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.

16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death."(Lev 24:13-16)

[Robert]

Robert, how I wish you would say "Bingo" to the quotes from Mrs. White in regard to Job and also in regard to overcoming.

Keep in mind she didn't have all the light....With Job it's interpretation....With overcoming, that's fine, but not as requirement for heaven. After all Ellen White wasn't perfect....

[Robert]

God commanded his own people to kill someone. Which is no different than if he had done it himself.

God commanded what the Jews had accepted. He didn't force anyone....They could have given up on the OC, but no...they wanted to be under law and under law you sin, you die. God was simply giving them what they insisted on - law!

[Q.E.D.]

The Certainty of God's Judgments

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. . . . {LDE 240.5}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {LDE 241.1}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3}

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

At Times Holy Angels Exercise Destructive Power

"Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men." DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

Q.E.D.

[skyblue888]

At Times Holy Angels Exercise Destructive Power

"Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men." DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

Q.E.D.

I have read this statement before. They are all-powerful. They could not restrain Satan and his evil angels unless they were clothed with the panoply of Heaven. When sinners have filled up their cup of iniquity God gives them the command, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work his malignity upon the children of disobedience... I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." E.G. White, Review & Herald, Vol.4,335.

Each one of these soldiers, 185,000 of them, had, at birth, received a protecting angel. This is true of every child born into this world. That night of the slaughter, their guardian angels were given the command to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Why? Because their cup of iniquity was full. "He (God) did not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. (Manuscript Releases, Vol.14,3.1.

This is how these men fell that night. This was a judgment of God and His judgments upon the wicked do not come directly out from the Lord but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection.

sky

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

At Times Holy Angels Exercise Destructive Power

"Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men." DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

Q.E.D.

I have read this statement before. They are all-powerful. They could not restrain Satan and his evil angels unless they were clothed with the panoply of Heaven. When sinners have filled up their cup of iniquity God gives them the command, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work his malignity upon the children of disobedience... I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." E.G. White, Review & Herald, Vol.4,335.

Each one of these soldiers, 185,000 of them, had, at birth, received a protecting angel. This is true of every child born into this world. That night of the slaughter, their guardian angels were given the command to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Why? Because their cup of iniquity was full. "He (God) did not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. (Manuscript Releases, Vol.14,3.1.

This is how these men fell that night. This was a judgment of God and His judgments upon the wicked do not come directly out from the Lord but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection.

sky

"they slew"

"they slew"

"they slew"

Q.E.D.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I have read this statement before. They are all-powerful. They could not restrain Satan and his evil angels unless they were clothed with the panoply of Heaven. When sinners have filled up their cup of iniquity God gives them the command, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work his malignity upon the children of disobedience... I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." E.G. White, Review & Herald, Vol.4,335.

Each one of these soldiers, 185,000 of them, had, at birth, received a protecting angel. This is true of every child born into this world. That night of the slaughter, their guardian angels were given the command to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Why? Because their cup of iniquity was full. "He (God) did not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. (Manuscript Releases, Vol.14,3.1.

This is how these men fell that night. This was a judgment of God and His judgments upon the wicked do not come directly out from the Lord but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection.

sky [/quote']

"they slew"

"they slew"

"they slew"

Q.E.D.

_____________

Exaclty. This language is no different than the language used concerning the death of Saul. We read, "God slew him and turned the kingdom over to David." 1 Chronicles 10:14.

But we know that God did not directly slay Saul. Saul killed himself with his own sword. Verse 4.

God was forced to withdraw His protecting care from Saul and God said that He slew him simply because by withdrawing His restraining power from the agencies of evil, Saul was doomed.

sky