skyblue888 Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 "I know Sky, you are one who believes that God does not Kill but He says diferent... Gibs __________ Gibs, is that fair to put is like that? Someone who reads this without knowing all that is involved in this discussion will get the wrong idea. I accept the language of the Bible that God did this or that God did that or when He says, I will do this or I will do that but I have never taken it upon myself to privately interpret that language. So far I have only stated the words of inspiration which explain that language and all I am getting is a deaf ear. Why did you not comment on the last statements which clearly explain what it means for God to punish the wicked with a rod? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Robert Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. Yes, He creates evil too....He commands sinners to be burned, stoned....He practices genocide, etc., etc.... Doesn't that just draw you to God? What utter love to know He does these things, or does He? The two goats And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. What was the condition of those two goats? What were the qualifications of the two goats? Did the goats have to meet certain specifications? They had to be without blemish. One of them or both of them? Both of them had to be without blemish, so that you could interchange the goats. You cast lots and the lot falls on either this goat or the other. So we must be clear that the second goat doesn’t represent Satan as we know him but Lucifer as God created him, because both Christ and Lucifer were spotless. Look now at the second goat for a moment. What is the name of the second goat in your Bible? In the KJV it is “Scapegoat.” In the original it is “Azazel,” and some of the modern translations will have that word. What does the word “Azazel” mean? In the Hebrew, words have meanings. What does the word mean? We do not know today because the Hebrew language changed in the ninth century and we do not know exactly what it means. But here is what we have from the best of the scholars. According to the Hebrew scholars (these are not Christian scholars, but Jewish scholars), “Azazel” is the name of the devil. So the Hebrew scholars back us up. We do have not the Hebrew manuscript but we do have the Syriac manuscript, which is one of the oldest manuscripts. The Syriac manuscript for “Azazel” has this phrase “the angel that revolted.” Very interesting and a very reliable manuscript. Most Christian scholars interpret Azazel as the Scapegoat. What does scapegoat mean? If you looked it up in a dictionary, what does it mean? We use it in our English language. Someone has to take the blame. That is the issue! When you deal with sin in a legal sense, as a transgression of the law, there are three things involved. First there is guilt. Then there is punishment. Then there is responsibility. The thing is this: who is responsible for sin? One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. That’s what it means. God is sovereign. Did God know that Lucifer would sin? Yes. Then why did He create him? That’s one of the big questions. If God is sovereign, then He has allowed Satan to come in. He has allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve. This has created a problem and this was not solved on the cross. Let me give you an illustration. When Adam sinned and God came to visit him, what did he say to God when God asked why did you sin? He said, “This woman, whom You gave....” So upon whom was he putting the blame? On God. Today you will hear it all the time: “If God is love why is He allowing all the sicknesses and problems? If God is love, why is He allowing a drought in America?” These are the kind of questions that have to be solved if the great controversy is to come to an end. So what does God do? God actually assumes the blame! He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. There is a text which I want you to look for, it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment.
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 Hey there Rob, it's been a while, I hope all is well with you. I haven't followed this thread so I'm not really sure what it's all about but the name gives me a pretty good idea. I have a quote that is worth considering. I am not going to be participating in the conversation though, I just don't have time anymore to do this like I used to and really I don't have the interest either. It is nice to see you and others though "Joshua appealed to the people themselves as witnesses that, so far as they had complied with the conditions, God had faithfully fulfilled His promises to them. “Ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls,” he said, “that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.” He declared to them that as the Lord had fulfilled His promises, so He would fulfill His threatenings. “It shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.... When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord, ... then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which He hath given unto you.” {PP 522.1} Satan deceives many with the plausible theory that God’s love for His people is so great that He will excuse sin in them; he represents that while the threatenings of God’s word are to serve a certain purpose in His moral government, they are never to be literally fulfilled. But in all His dealings with His creatures God has maintained the principles of righteousness by revealing sin in its true character—by demonstrating that its sure result is misery and death. The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. Such pardon would show the abandonment of the principles of righteousness, which are the very foundation of the government of God. It would fill the unfallen universe with consternation. God has faithfully pointed out the results of sin, and if these warnings were not true, how could we be sure that His promises would be fulfilled? That so-called benevolence which would set aside justice is not benevolence but weakness. {PP 522.2}" The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Gibs Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 There was never any excuse for any to sin, starting with Satan. And man the same, he has no excuse. Both have choosen to sin. All were in the beginning free to obey or disobey and it will be that way in the new earth. But all who will not be obedient will have been weeded out. But just the same all will have the freedom to to evil. None today have no excuse, Christ in you is easily obtained and you have His power to overcome all sin and disobedience, take it, it is free! EGW, speaks a few words, No Excuse For Sin Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness. Ezekiel 28:17. {CTr 11.1} The sin of Lucifer is unexplainable. He was disloyal to God. His mourning and complaining aroused sympathy among the angelic hosts, and many took the same position as did Satan [Lucifer]. How did the Lord break the force of these accusations? {CTr 11.2} Because of Satan’s accusing power, it was not the plan of God to deal with him as he deserved. The tempter would throw all the blame of his course upon others who were below him. He would make it appear that if he could have moved according to his own judgment all this demonstration of rebellion would have been avoided. {CTr 11.3} The condemning power of Satan would lead him to institute a theory of justice inconsistent with mercy. He claims to be officiating as the voice and power of God, claims that his decisions are justice, are pure and without fault. Thus he takes his position on the judgment seat and declares that his counsels are infallible. Here his merciless justice comes in, a counterfeit of justice, abhorrent to God. {CTr 11.4} Why on earth would any blame God for falling into sin and rebellion when it is your fault. Who is to blame is the sinner and disobedient one!! God is blameless, faultless, perfect in righteousness, no fault can be found in Him! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 Satan deceives many with the plausible theory that God’s love for His people is so great that He will excuse sin in them; he represents that while the threatenings of God’s word are to serve a certain purpose in His moral government, they are never to be literally fulfilled. No...those who persistently reject the atonement remain under law. In the end they will take the curse of the law, which is God abandonment.
Robert Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 Why on earth would any blame God for falling into sin and rebellion when it is your fault. Who is to blame is the sinner and disobedient one!! God assumes the blame....To assume is not the same as being responsible. If God would not have created Lucifer we wouldn't have the problem we have now. Why did God create him knowing the outcome? I'm not sure, but because He did and because Lucifer has brought disaster upon humanity, God assumes the responsibility until "The day of Atonement". By the way, it's not your fault you were born bent-to-self. It's not your fault you were born a sinner....You didn't chose to be born this way.
Gibs Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 He only assumes the sin of the forgiven who have come the way He has made. He bears our sin in His sin bearer. But most will fail of that although all could come and be saved but stiff necked man will not fall on the Rock and be broken that he may be saved. He wants saved in his sin and God saves none in sin. But man thinks he has found a way but it is a deception based on presumption. Many have faith based on presumption and not the truth. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 He only assumes the sin of the forgiven who have come the way He has made. I'm not talking about sin....I'm talking about God assuming the responsibility for Satan's evil ways.
cheddar Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 That so-called benevolence which would set aside justice is not benevolence but weakness. {PP 522.2}" ...so true The Christian world has turned Jesus into a galactic doormat who always bends to the will of the sinner. Some act as if the wrath of God is so terrible and unspeakable. I never hear the wrath of God preached in sermons anymore...it's not even mentioned, just the warm and cuddly fake love. If I didn't know any better, I would say that they're trying to clothe Jesus' with homosexual character traits.
Q.E.D. Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 The Wrath of God "26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. 27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them."(Exo 14:26-28) Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Robert Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 God abandoned the Egyptians. They destroyed themselves. It was stupid of them to follow the Jews through the open sea.....They were blinded by rage
Q.E.D. Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 The Wrath of God "1 ¶ Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. 4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. 5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. 6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. 7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble."(Exo 15:1-7) Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Gibs Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 God abandoned the Egyptians. They destroyed themselves. It was stupid of them to follow the Jews through the open sea.....They were blinded by rage He abandoned them alright. It is believed the sea was around a 1,000 ft deep where they crossed and God held open the sea till the Israelites all got out and until all the Egyptians got in and let the sea slam in on them. He could have closed the end off where the Israelites exited and let the Egyptians retreat you know but He did not. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD.... Hence their view of God.....
Members phkrause Posted July 28, 2012 Members Posted July 28, 2012 That's spin...that's your perception. No, its his opinion, just like you have your opinion! phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Robert Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 No, its his opinion, just like you have your opinion! God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but He leaves (abandons) the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown." G.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 Unless we believe implicitly that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression," or that "the judgments of God do not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked," we will continue to misunderstand and misinterpret the teaching of the Bible concerning God's character, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Gibs Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 "The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor." {PP 628.1} 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
skyblue888 Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 "The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor." {PP 628.1} 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. "The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42. "There is an unerring register kept of all sins committed. All man's impiety, all his disobedience to Heaven's commands, are written in the books of Heaven with unerring accuracy. The figures of guilt rapidly accumulate, yet the judgments of God are tampered with mercy, until the figures have reached their appointed limit. God bears long with the transgression of human beings, and continues through His appointed agencies to present the gospel message, until the set time has come. God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgression with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of evil to bear sway to destroy." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.4,1171. "I was shown that Satan would entangle and then destroy, if he could, the souls he had tempted. God will bear long, but there is a bound to His mercy, a line which marks His mercy and His justice. I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they chose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." E.G. White, Manuscript Releases, Vol.14,3.1. "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 "The work of destruction is a strange work to Him who is infinite in love." P.P.139. This statement is often quoted to prove that it is God who does the work of destruction but the statement does not say that at all. What it does say is that the work of destruction is a strange work to Him who is infinite in love. When God is forced to say to His angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy;" When God is forced to say, "I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work," the work of destruction that follows is a strange work to Him who is infinite in love. "Satan is the destroyer." 6 Testimonies,388,389. Here is what God's strange work is: "God's great and strange work is to redeem and save and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." 3 R&H 583. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Gibs Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 "When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the revelator, in describing those terrific scourges: "There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." The sea "became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." And "the rivers and fountains of waters . . . became blood." Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares: "Thou art righteous, O Lord, . . . because Thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Revelation 16:2-6. By condemning the people of God to death, they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood as if it had been shed by their hands. In like manner Christ declared the Jews of His time guilty of all the blood of holy men which had been shed since the days of Abel; for they possessed the same spirit and were seeking to do the same work with these murderers of the prophets. {GC 627.3} In the plague that follows, power is given to the sun "to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat." Verses 8, 9. The prophets thus describe the condition of the earth at this fearful time: "The land mourneth; . . . because the harvest of the field is perished. . . . All the trees of the field are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men." "The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate. . . . How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture. . . . The rivers of water are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness." "The songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence." Joel 1:10-12, 17-20; Amos 8:3. {GC 628.1} These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy. {GC 628.2} 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. Okay, let's say God is like you say. Why not blink them out existence? Why torture? What good comes of it?
Q.E.D. Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 "1 ¶ Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. 4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. 5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. 6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. 7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble."(Exo 15:1-7) Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
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