Felix Florimon Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Originally Posted By: Felix Florimon Methinks there's a bit of confusion concering your "impressions". Not quite sure if the confusion can be pinpointed but will give it a shot. . . 1) You profer an impressionistic, pseudo psychoanalysis, critique of over 1100 words about Q.E.D.'s state of mind in response to a mere 88 word Q.E.D. post as shown below. 2) Your three tiered opinion of my mindset about the two questions I asked Robert are whimsical fantasy at best and utter nonsense in fact. . . "What we've got here is failure to communicate." - 1967 movie "Cool Hand Luke" Q.E.D. I beg your pardon, but based on your post, it is very difficult to understand if you wish to communicate that Robert's way of thinking is just a fantasy or if God as revealed in the Bible is just another fantasy or if both are fantasies. Since you convey that my analysis is not accurate, could you help me know what you really think to be truthful and what you really believe just to be a myth or fantasy? FF
Q.E.D. Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Originally Posted By: Q.E.D. I beg your pardon, but based on your post, it is very difficult to understand if you wish to communicate that Robert's way of thinking is just a fantasy or if God as revealed in the Bible is just another fantasy or if both are fantasies. Since you convey that my analysis is not accurate, could you help me know what you really think to be truthful and what you really believe just to be a myth or fantasy? FF Originally Posted By: Q.E.D. Sure, no problem! 1) There is a living God. 2) He has His requirements. 3) He has His people on earth now. 4) God is love. 5) Jesus Christ is our Creator and our God. 6) The Bible is the Word of God. 7) The Spirit of Prophecy is from God. 8) The Seventh-day Adventist Church is the Remnant Chruch of Revelation 12. 9) The righteous will be redeemed by faith in Christ. 10) The wicked will be destroyed by "fire out of heaven from God". Let the questions begin. "Reclining on the couch and getting comfy while drifting back to my early childhood years. . ." Q.E.D. Originally Posted By: Felix Florimon Statements 1 to 10 are accepted as truthful statements by all Seventh Day Adventists believing in EGW's writings. Now, where is Robert wrong in his Bible's interpretation? FF[/quote'] Sorry, but generally I only communicate, directly to/from the source, person to person apologetics. I attempt to bring out into public view various beliefs for all to consider and evaluate. I do not pretend to know nor understand Roberts positions. I analyze individual postings and respond according to my current understandings of Biblical theology. Of course all you really have to do is to peruse the Wrath of God topic here and perhaps you can understand Robert's position. Whether Robert's position is right or wrong only God knows. Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."(Rev 20:9) As far as the language is concerned, what is the difference between the above statement which is understood to be saying that God will directly send fire to devour the wicked and the words "God shall send them strong delusion" (2 Thess.2:11) or when He says to David, "I will raise up evil against you out of your own house?" 2 Samuel 12:11. In these three statements the language is the same which is traditionally interpreted to mean that God will DIRECTLY send fire, strong delusion, and that He will DIRECTLY raise up evil out of David's own house. But what if the prophet of God explains this language in a totally different manner than we would expect? in a totally different way than we have been familar with? Then what? What if the prophet says that these words "God will send them strong delusion," do not mean that God will directly send strong delusion to those who do not have the love of the truth but that "As they reject the teachings of His Word, He withdraws His Spirit and leaves them to the deceptions which they love." The Great Controversy,431. What if immediately after quoting these words from God to David "I will raise up evil against you out of your own house," the prophet says, "Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them." Patriarchs & Prophets,739. Now if the prophet explains these two statements from God in that way, why would the same prophet refuse to explain these words "and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them" in the same way? I am asking because some of us seem to think that the prophet could not explain those words in the same way. But I ask, why not? Not that God would prompt the fire to come down on them but that He would not exercise His power to prevent it. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
cheddar Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 The Wrath of God Analyze this Felix. . . "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."(Rev 20:9) (Washburn Outsider Art image is copyrighted 2012.) LOL...nice abstract! the fire coming down looks like a flaming chipmunk.
skyblue888 Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 "... and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."(Rev 20:9) As far as the language is concerned, what is the difference between the above statement which is understood to be saying that God will directly send fire to devour the wicked and the words "God shall send them strong delusion" (2 Thess.2:11) or when He says to David, "I will raise up evil against you out of your own house?" 2 Samuel 12:11. In these three statements the language is the same which is traditionally interpreted to mean that God will DIRECTLY send fire, strong delusion, and that He will DIRECTLY raise up evil out of David's own house. But what if the prophet of God explains this language in a totally different manner than we would expect? in a totally different way than we have been familar with? Then what? What if the prophet says that these words "God will send them strong delusion," do not mean that God will directly send strong delusion to those who do not have the love of the truth but that "As they reject the teachings of His Word, He withdraws His Spirit and leaves them to the deceptions which they love." The Great Controversy,431. What if immediately after quoting these words from God to David "I will raise up evil against you out of your own house," the prophet says, "Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them." Patriarchs & Prophets,739. Now if the prophet explains these two statements from God in that way, why would the same prophet refuse to explain these words "and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them" in the same way? I am asking because some of us seem to think that the prophet could not explain those words in the same way. But I ask, why not? Not that God would prompt this fire to come down on them and to consume them, not that this judgment of God would come directly out from the Lord upon them but that He would not exercise His power to prevent it. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Guest Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 The Second Death Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294, 295}
skyblue888 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 The Second Death "Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294, 295} Richard, something is missing. We need to compare statement with statement. They are not engulfed in fire right away. The unsaved of all ages will first turn against Satan and his angels with the fury of demons and a battle will ensue. We don't know how long it will last but long enough for them to destroy themselves even by fire for it is also written that the fire will come from their very own midst. The language of the Lord is, "I will bring a fire from the midst of thee; it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth and in the sight of all them that behold thee." Ezekiel 28:18. "Satan's power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against God. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." Great Controversy,572. This language is explained by the Lord Himself through the prophet Ezekiel: "Because you have set your heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon you, the terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and they shall defile your brightness. They shall bring you down to the Pit. I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire... I will cast you to the ground... I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you... I will bring you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold you... You shall be a terror, and never shall be any more.'" Ezekiel 28:6-8;16-19. If they were to be destroyed by fire immediately, how could the Lord say that the terrible of the nations will draw their swords against the beauty of his wisdom and defile his brightness? how could the Lord say that the terrible of the nations will bring him down to the pit? and we have every reason to believe that this pit is the lake of fire. The language is consistent throughout the entire Bible. It means that the Lord will not intervene when the terrible of the nations shall turn against Satan. The very implements of war that were to be used to take the City are now employed to destroy Satan and his evil angels and each other. These implements of war they will have had plenty of time to construct and they will be the means by which fire will come down upon them and it will consume them all. The fire will not come directly out from the Lord. He will not exercise His power to prevent it and again it will be seen that "Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Gibs Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Remember this is the second and eternal death. Take note of the wording here, "Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together" {EW 294} Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2} Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain. God's entire universe was clean, and the great controversy was forever ended. Wherever we looked, everything upon which the eye rested was beautiful and holy. And all the redeemed host, old and young, great and small, cast their glittering crowns at the feet of their Redeemer, and prostrated themselves in adoration before Him, and worshiped Him that liveth forever and ever. The beautiful new earth, with all its glory, was the eternal inheritance of the saints. The kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, was then given to the saints of the Most High, who were to possess it forever, even forever and ever. {EW 295.1} It is Satan this verse is addressed too, Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Satan is a spirit entity and the fire that Yah brings from his midst is the ending of his Spirit without doubt and the ashes would be of the body Satan took to dwell in. God only can destroy the spirit he put in man or angels. When the spirit is dead there is no more existence of any kind. Yah makes alive, spirit, and he kills the spirit of the damned that was the life. De 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. In the case of the wicked in the great finale, He alone the Author of life is the finisher of life. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
skyblue888 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Gibs, you are in your eighties. In all due respect you still need to sit at the feet of Jesus and learn of Him what He means when He says that He will destroy. Satan will fall at the hand of the terrible of the nations. God will destroy him and all the wicked only in the sense that He will let evil take its own course. "Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Q.E.D. Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Remember this is the second and eternal death. Take note of the wording here, "Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together" {EW 294} Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2} Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain. God's entire universe was clean, and the great controversy was forever ended. Wherever we looked, everything upon which the eye rested was beautiful and holy. And all the redeemed host, old and young, great and small, cast their glittering crowns at the feet of their Redeemer, and prostrated themselves in adoration before Him, and worshiped Him that liveth forever and ever. The beautiful new earth, with all its glory, was the eternal inheritance of the saints. The kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, was then given to the saints of the Most High, who were to possess it forever, even forever and ever. {EW 295.1} It is Satan this verse is addressed too, Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Satan is a spirit entity and the fire that Yah brings from his midst is the ending of his Spirit without doubt and the ashes would be of the body Satan took to dwell in. God only can destroy the spirit he put in man or angels. When the spirit is dead there is no more existence of any kind. Yah makes alive, spirit, and he kills the spirit of the damned that was the life. De 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. In the case of the wicked in the great finale, He alone the Author of life is the finisher of life. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Q.E.D. you too need to sit at the feet of Jesus and learn of Him. But you must first leave your preconceived ideas at the door of His school. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Q.E.D. Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Q.E.D. you too need to sit at the feet of Jesus and learn of Him. But you must first leave your preconceived ideas at the door of His school. sky What makes you think that? Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Because like Gibs and some others you have made it clear that you do not understand the language of Heaven when it comes to the judgments of God. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Q.E.D. Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Because like Gibs and others you have made it clear that you do not understand the language of Heaven when it comes to the judgments of God. sky So you understand "the language of Heaven" and we have to believe what you believe since we do not "Sit and learn at the feet of Jesus" like you do. Methinks you are a bit pompous and condescending. I thought it was a free country. . . Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 You know that it is not what I mean because for me to sit at the feet of Jesus is to compare Scripture with Scripture and statement with statement in order to come to the true understanding of the language of the Bible when it comes to God's judgments. Is it pompous and condescending to believe this testimony of Jesus: "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection." MR, Vol.14,3.1. This is only one of the many statements given as the key to understand the language of the Bible. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Woody Posted August 3, 2012 Author Posted August 3, 2012 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 Because like Gibs and others you have made it clear that you do not understand the language of Heaven when it comes to the judgments of God. sky So you understand "the language of Heaven" and we have to believe what you believe since we do not "Sit and learn at the feet of Jesus" like you do. Methinks you are a bit pompous and condescending. I thought it was a free country. . . Q.E.D. I am so sorry to see this. But I've noticed it more and more from Sky. WHat a shame. We need to stick with God's Word and not the opinions of man. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Q.E.D. Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 The Certainty of God's Judgments God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. . . . {LDE 240.5} In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {LDE 241.1} The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2} Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3} Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 He will do what He said He will do. He will withdraw His restraining power from the agencies of evil. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 In Testimonies, Vol.7, p.83 we read that "The time is near when the large cities will be visited by the judgments of God." On page 141 we read, "The wickedness of the inhabitants of the world has almost filled up the measure of their iniquity. This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it." One statement tells us that God will punish the inhabitants of the world and the other statement tell us how. "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection." Manuscript Release, Vol.14,3.1. So it is not a question as to whether or not God will punish or destroy sinners but as to how. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Q.E.D. Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 In Testimonies, Vol.7, p.83 we read that "The time is near when the large cities will be visited by the judgments of God." On page 141 we read, "The wickedness of the inhabitants of the world has almost filled up the measure of their iniquity. This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it." One statement tells us that God will punish the inhabitants of the world and the other statement tell us how. "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection." Manuscript Release, Vol.14,3.1. So it is not a question as to whether or not God will punish or destroy sinners but as to how. sky The Word of God "17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."(Gen 6:17) The Spirit of Prophecy "Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world." {12 Manuscript Releases 208} No question about "how." God drowned them all. "Sitting at the feet of Jesus. . ." Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
skyblue888 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Why Q.E.D. do you let that language stop you from receiving the precious light? The language is always the same. What caused the flood has already been covered and it was done thoroughly but I guess you were not here when it was. Yes God drowned the vast world. To understand how He did it we need to study the conditions that existed before the flood as far as the moon and the sun were concerned in relation to the mantle of vapor above the earth and how it was disrupted when the moon lost its light completely and the sun was dimmed to one seventh of its brightness as God's Spirit was withdrawn. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Q.E.D. Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."(Rev 20:15) Lost! Lost! Forever Lost! Cast into the lake of fire by God
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