The Wrath of God

[cheddar]

God used force, threat and fear of death all the time in the OT.

That doesn't change freewill; it simply brings a ton of pressure on the individual to choose the right way.

And 9 times out of 10 it didn't work anyway. Sinners still chose sin over God's way.

You don't think that the plagues that fell on Egypt were forceful and threatening.

[Q.E.D.]

Ex 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Two things:

1] Force is not of God. He doesn't compel. What about free will?

2] Notice that God did this so that Pharaoh wouldn't let the Jews go. This is opposite of what He wanted to do. .i.e., free them from bondage.

Two things:

"see that you perform" Exodus 4:21

1] Sounds like a compelling and warning threat to me. . .

2] Use your free will to choose to do what I command or ignore my command. The choice is yours Moses.

"Do what I command or I will abandon you!"

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

God used force, threat and fear of death all the time in the OT.

That doesn't change freewill; it simply brings a ton of pressure on the individual to choose the right way.

And 9 times out of 10 it didn't work anyway. Sinners still chose sin over God's way.

You don't think that the plagues that fell on Egypt were forceful and threatening.

Please don't smite me anymore, for I have sinned!

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

The God who is Love also has wrath, with sin and disobedience and He will take them out to never be anymore in those whom it is embeded in. Would He be Love if He didn't? For sure not!

Here is some words from EGW for all to consider and I post this mainly for SDA's,

All however would do well to read all of this and especially SDA's from "Last Day Events" , if you have the book, read further, start reading further with Page 251

The Lost Condemn Their False Shepherds

"Church members who have seen the light and been convicted, but who have trusted the salvation of their souls to the minister, will learn in the day of God that no other soul can pay the ransom for their transgression. A terrible cry will be raised, "I am lost, eternally lost." Men will feel as though they could rend in pieces the ministers who have preached falsehoods and condemned the truth.--4BC 1157 (1900). {LDE 247.2}

All unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin"; and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most, will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels, will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people, are now employed to destroy their enemies.--GC 655, 656 (1911). {LDE 247.3}

Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men [Ezekiel 9:6], those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust.--5T 211 (1882). {LDE 248.1}

God's Word is made of none effect by false shepherds. . . . Their work will soon react upon themselves. Then will be witnessed the scenes described in Revelation 18 when the judgments of God shall fall upon mystical Babylon.--Ms 60, 1900. {LDE 248.2}

The Sixth Plague

The spirits of devils will go forth to the kings of the earth and to the whole world, to fasten them in deception, and urge them on to unite with Satan in his last struggle against the government of heaven.--GC 624 (1911). {LDE 248.3}

The Spirit of God is gradually withdrawing from the world. Satan is also mustering his forces of evil, going forth "unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world," to gather them under his banner, to be trained for "the battle of that great day of God Almighty" [Revelation 16:14].--7BC 983 (1890). {LDE 249.1}

After John's description in Revelation 16 of that miracle-working power which was to gather the world to the last great conflict, the symbols are dropped and the trumpet voice once more gives a certain sound: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame" [Revelation 16:15]. After the transgression of Adam and Eve they were naked, for the garment of light and security had departed from them. {LDE 249.2}

The world will have forgotten the admonition and warnings of God as did the inhabitants of the Noatic world, as did also the dwellers in Sodom. They awoke with all their plans and inventions of iniquity, but suddenly the shower of fire came from heaven and consumed the godless inhabitants. "Thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" [Luke 17:30].--14MR 96, 97 (1896). {LDE 249.3}

The Last Great Battle Between Good and Evil

Two great opposing powers are revealed in the last great battle. On one side stands the Creator of heaven and earth. All on His side bear His signet. They are obedient to His commands. On the other side stands the prince of darkness, with those who have chosen apostasy and rebellion.--7BC 982, 983 (1901). {LDE 249.4}

A terrible conflict is before us. We are nearing the battle of the great day of God Almighty. That which has been held in control is to be let loose. The angel of mercy is folding her wings, preparing to step down from the throne and leave the world to the control of Satan. The principalities and powers of earth are in bitter revolt against the God of heaven. They are filled with hatred against those who serve Him, and soon, very soon, will be fought the last great battle between good and evil. The earth is to be the battle field--the scene of the final contest and the final victory. Here, where for so long Satan has led men against God, rebellion is to be forever suppressed.--RH May 13, 1902. {LDE 250.1}

The battles waging between the two armies are as real as those fought by the armies of this world, and on the issue of the spiritual conflict eternal destinies depend.--PK 176 (c. 1914). {LDE 250.2}

All the World Will Be

Gathered on One Side or the Other

All the world will be on one side or the other of the question. The battle of Armageddon will be fought. And that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle.--3SM 426 (1890). {LDE 250.3}

The enmity of Satan against good will be manifested more and more as he brings his forces into activity in his last work of rebellion, and every soul that is not fully surrendered to God and kept by divine power will form an alliance with Satan against heaven and join in battle against the Ruler of the universe.--TM 465 (1892). {LDE 251.1}

Soon all the inhabitants of the earth will have taken sides, either for or against the government of heaven.--7T 141 (1902). {LDE 251.2}

The Seventh Plague

We need to study the pouring out of the seventh vial [Revelation 16:17-21]. The powers of evil will not yield up the conflict without a struggle. But Providence has a part to act in the battle of Armageddon. When the earth is lighted with the glory of the angel of Revelation eighteen, the religious elements, good and evil, will awake from slumber, and the armies of the living God will take the field.--7BC 983 (1899). {LDE 251.3}

The battle of Armageddon is soon to be fought. He on whose vesture is written the name, King of kings and Lord of lords, leads forth the armies of heaven on white horses, clothed in fine linen, clean and white [Revelation 19:11-16].--7BC 982 (1899). {LDE 251.4}

The whole earth heaves and swells like the waves of the sea. Its surface is breaking up. Its very foundations seem to be giving way. Mountain chains are sinking. Inhabited islands disappear. The seaports that have become like Sodom for wickedness, are swallowed up by the angry waters. . . . The proudest cities of the earth are laid low. The lordly palaces, upon which the world's great men have lavished their wealth in order to glorify themselves, are crumbling to ruin before their eyes. Prison walls are rent asunder, and God's people, who have been held in bondage for their faith, are set free.--GC 637 (1911). {LDE 251.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

God used force, threat and fear of death all the time in the OT.That doesn't change freewill; it simply brings a ton of pressure on the individual to choose the right way.

And 9 times out of 10 it didn't work anyway. Sinners still chose sin over God's way.

You don't think that the plagues that fell on Egypt were forceful and threatening.

Are you sure about that? Why did Christ come to change humans persection of God?

Are you not attributing perception to an actual action of God?

No wonder non believers think those that follow that type of God are nuts, so would I...If I believed that way.

[Woody]

It's no wonder this type of God is portrayed.

A thread talking about the LOVE of God is deleted. But the thread talking about the Wrath of God goes on strong.

[Gibs]

Woody, that is because the God of Love does have wrath. But His wrath is not with those of Him but for the ones who will not and love not. The spirit and heart of them is embeded to always be unwilling and disobedient.

It was the love thread was so wonton to keep it as just as he wanted it to run or he wasn't happy.

Many of my threads get led off too in side issues that come up and love is one that has far reaching and many tenacles. So one can't keep it canned too tight.

The fact is Love must destroy sin to never be no more. It must never rise up again and He is making sure it don't.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

"Christians have placed upon the throne of the universe a God of eternal hate. I cannot worship a being whose vengeance is boundless, whose cruelty shoreless, and whose malice is increased by the agonies he inflicts." [The 19th century skeptic, Robert G. Ingersoll]

Bad Christianity produces agnostics.

Exactly.

And those who are atheists from the word go love to see that picture of God as interpreted by most of Christendom. The perfect excuse to be atheists.

Just as the Jews had caused the world to look upon God as a tyrant (D.A.36) the Christian world is guilty of the same.

Hence we read, "It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing (have lost) their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misintepreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world (and in the church) is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, and truth." C.O.L.415. *parenthesis mine

sky

[Woody]

Quote:

Many of my threads get led off too in side issues that come up and love is one that has far reaching and many tenacles. So one can't keep it canned too tight.

Good Point.

[Robert]

The choice is yours Moses

Earth to QED....I was writing about God hardening Pharaoh's heart.

[Robert]

Ironic...the legalistic, self-righteous Jews thought just like you, Gibs. And you know what? Their view of a vengeful, murderous God fit right into theology. After all, look what they did to Christ.

If you remember the disciples wanted Christ to smite the Romans. Remember? Why? Human nature. What's human nature like?

Rom 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know."

Instead of the Jews repenting from their self-righteousness they rejected Christ.

Do you know why? They had the law...they were good, holy people. They didn't need a Savior. So they did away with Him.

About 40 years later the Romans utterly destroyed the Jews. Why? God wasn't around.

So what the Jews wanted God to do to the Romans, the Romans did to the Jews.

[Robert]

Woody, that is because the God of Love does have wrath. But His wrath is not with those of Him but for the ones who will not and love not.

Okay, so if I am to love as God loves then when my step-son became rebellious I should have killed him, in love of course.

Deut 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Wow, I should have done God's will and stoned him.

Tell you what, I'll do you guys a favor. If I'm ever around and you sin I'll stone you for free. After all I must do God's will and purge the evil from among others.

[Gibs]

No Robert He expects you to discipline him as you can. He Yah will work to discipline him too and finally if he insists on being rebellious and unwilling to be a willing sbubject then in the end he has decided his own destiny, eternal death. And that is not just the poor old body we dwell in but the spirit.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

You know what? There are a lot of stupid, redneck Christians, read to pull that trigger and act like the god they've made up in their minds. Here's what they will do in the end:

John 16:2 ... a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

Why will they do it?

3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

[Robert]

No Robert He expects you to discipline him as you can.

No sir....The law, which you claim to keep, states that if a son is rebellious that the congregation must stone him.

Aren't you under the law? Don't you claim to be a commandment keeper? If so, then the transgressor must die. We, the congregation, must purge the sinners from among. Quick...do it now.

[Gibs]

Robert, That time is coming and not too far down the road. You will find if you are a Sabbath keeper you must die. But that is not the wrath of God but of Satan and his, men and angels.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Robert, that is not the law of God, that was of men that stoned him. Different if God would have commanded it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

You will find if you are a Sabbath keeper you must die. But that is not the wrath of God but of Satan and his, men and angels.

BTW, as a side issue, you aren't keeping the Sabbath. But that's another subject.

Here's what that verse said: "a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God."

Service to God? In other words they will think they are doing God's will - i.e., kill the infidel! Nothing is said of Sabbath here....Stop making things up.

The reason they will murder you is because they do not know God. The god they know is a vengeful, murderous god....

So at they time they will fully reflect the god they have produced. This should be a warning for you and others who present a god who makes Hitler look like a choirboy.

[Robert]

Robert, that is not the law of God, that was of men that stoned him.

No sir, that's what the law commands. The Jews wanted law. Remember, you give us your law and we will obey it, in turn you owe us heaven.

So what did God do? He entered the OC with the Jews:

"The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26. [Ellen G. White]

In other words you sin, you die.

Aren't you under law? Don't you sin? Then you must die. Let's have a stoning at your house, Gibs!

Tired of the legalism? If not, I'll keep pouring the gas on the flames.

[Robert]

Levit 20:14 If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

Can you even imagine the evilness of the executioners? How could they, in their self-righteousness, murder another sinner?

What did Jesus do when a group of folks wanted to stone a whore?

John 8:5 In the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" (Jesus said) "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Since no one is without sin, no one has a right to purge sinners. This illustrates the self-righteous, hypocritical mindset of folks who believe in a god who does these terrible atrocities. They think they are doing God's will!

So the God they serve would stone and burn sinners....Since God is their example, they too believe they can do the same, and be like Him...

[Q.E.D.]

Ex 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Two things:

1] Force is not of God. He doesn't compel. What about free will?

2] Notice that God did this so that Pharaoh wouldn't let the Jews go. This is opposite of what He wanted to do. .i.e., free them from bondage.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Robert, that is not the law of God, that was of men that stoned him.

No sir, that's what the law commands. The Jews wanted law. Remember, you give us your law and we will obey it, in turn you owe us heaven.

So what did God do? He entered the OC with the Jews:

"The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26. [Ellen G. White]

In other words you sin, you die.

Aren't you under law? Don't you sin? Then you must die. Let's have a stoning at your house, Gibs!

Tired of the legalism? If not, I'll keep pouring the gas on the flames.

The old covenant ended in less than 6 weeks after Moses went up upon the mount to get the first set of 10 Commandments on the tables of stone.

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

Read the 10 commandments, that is the Law of Liberty, the Royal Law.

It tells you Q E D "Thou shalt not Kill!".

And no Q E D I'm not under the law it is in my heart and my desire to do. My love is given to be as His Love and my will is to do His Will. Mine is surrendered long ago. I am a totally free man within His will for me. For me it is the Law of Liberty. I have full liberty within it.

The wrath of our one and only God is righteousness all the way. What he mets out to any is full justice and all knees will bow and confess the sentence is just and right.

Each is choosing his eternal destiny in the here and now with our lives here on this earth in this dispensation.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

It amazes me - the spin that I read in these threads.

[Gibs]

This Quote needs be brought to the front, Who first feels God's Wrath, is answered.

"The Lost Condemn Their False Shepherds

"Church members who have seen the light and been convicted, but who have trusted the salvation of their souls to the minister, will learn in the day of God that no other soul can pay the ransom for their transgression. A terrible cry will be raised, "I am lost, eternally lost." Men will feel as though they could rend in pieces the ministers who have preached falsehoods and condemned the truth.--4BC 1157 (1900). {LDE 247.2}

All unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin"; and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most, will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels, will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people, are now employed to destroy their enemies.--GC 655, 656 (1911). {LDE 247.3}

Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men [Ezekiel 9:6], those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust.--5T 211 (1882). {LDE 248.1}

God's Word is made of none effect by false shepherds. . . . Their work will soon react upon themselves. Then will be witnessed the scenes described in Revelation 18 when the judgments of God shall fall upon mystical Babylon.--Ms 60, 1900. {LDE 248.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.