The Wrath of God

[Robert]

"For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

Good point...excellent point! Sin pays back in death. It doesn't say God pays back....Sin is the destroyer.

[Gibs]

Yes God is Love and no fault can be found in Him. His justice all will bow the knee and acknowledge He is absolutely Just.

But we also know, LOVE must do it's strange act or it wouldn't be Love. That is destroy sin and sinners! Sin then will not rise up again!

Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Na 1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Na 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

Na 1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

....the rocks are thrown down by him.

God claims He killed Saul. God claims He killed Christ. God claims He hardened Pharaoh's heart. God claims He creates evil and on and on and on.

But when one searches for truth he/she comes to the realization that God doesn't do these things.

Turn to Leviticus sixteen. We will not deal with the whole chapter. We will only deal with the issue of the cleansing of the sanctuary which is described in the ritual of the two goats in verses seven to ten and verse twenty to twenty-two. The question is, “Does the heavenly sanctuary need cleansing?” We have come under fire; the reason for this is that the blood of Christ, which He took with Him after the cross, doesn’t defile the sanctuary. We say that, in the earthly sanctuary, the priest or the sinner confessed his sin on the lamb. The lamb was slain and the blood was taken into the sanctuary. The record of the sins was kept in heaven. The problem is that, once a year, the curtain and the sanctuary had to be cleansed. What is it that transfers our sins from the earth to heaven? It is the blood. If the blood of Christ defiles the sanctuary that sounds blasphemous. So we need to deal with the issue. Look at verse seven. This is dealing with what the priest does on the day of atonement:

And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

We as a church take the position that the one goat which was chosen for the Lord represents Christ. The other goat represents Satan. We are unique in this position as a denomination. There are non-Adventist scholars who agree with us, but [as a whole] the other Christians take the position that both the goats represent Christ. So here is where the problem is. Look at verses twenty and twenty-two:

And when he had made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat [that’s the second goat]: And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel.

Keep in mind, the priest comes out of the sanctuary, he places his hands on the live goat, and he confesses all the iniquities of the children of Israel:

And all their transgressions and all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their [i.e., children of Israel] iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness:

If the live goat, which we say is Satan, bears the iniquities of the children of Israel, then aren’t we making Satan our sin bearer? That’s the accusation of the Evangelicals, and it’s also coming from within our church. So we need to settle what the issue is. Does the heavenly sanctuary need cleansing almost two thousand years after the cross? Let’s look at it step by step. Look at verse seven:

And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

What was the condition of those two goats? What were the qualifications of the two goats? Did the goats have to meet certain specifications? They had to be without blemish. One of them or both of them? Both of them had to be without blemish, so that you could interchange the goats. You cast lots and the lot falls on either this goat or the other. So we must be clear that the second goat doesn’t represent Satan as we know him but Lucifer as God created him, because both Christ and Lucifer were spotless.

Look now at the second goat for a moment. What is the name of the second goat in your Bible? In the KJV it is “Scapegoat.” In the original it is “Azazel,” and some of the modern translations will have that word. What does the word “Azazel” mean? In the Hebrew, words have meanings. What does the word mean? We do not know today because the Hebrew language changed in the ninth century and we do not know exactly what it means.

But here is what we have from the best of the scholars. According to the Hebrew scholars (these are not Christian scholars, but Jewish scholars), “Azazel” is the name of the devil. So the Hebrew scholars back us up. We do have not the Hebrew manuscript but we do have the Syriac manuscript, which is one of the oldest manuscripts. The Syriac manuscript for “Azazel” has this phrase “the angel that revolted.” Very interesting and a very reliable manuscript. Most Christian scholars interpret Azazel as the Scapegoat. What does scapegoat mean? If you looked it up in a dictionary, what does it mean? We use it in our English language.

Someone has to take the blame. That is the issue! When you deal with sin in a legal sense, as a transgression of the law, there are three things involved. First there is guilt. Then there is punishment. Then there is responsibility.

[Robert]

Someone has to take the blame. That is the issue! When you deal with sin in a legal sense, as a transgression of the law, there are three things involved. First there is guilt. Then there is punishment. Then there is responsibility.

The thing is this: who is responsible for sin? One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. That’s what it means. God is sovereign. Did God know that Lucifer would sin? Yes. Then why did He create him? That’s one of the big questions.

If God is sovereign, then He has allowed Satan to come in. He has allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve. This has created a problem and this was not solved on the cross. Let me give you an illustration. When Adam sinned and God came to visit him, what did he say to God when God asked why did you sin? He said, “This woman, whom You gave....” So upon whom was he putting the blame? On God. Today you will hear it all the time: “If God is love why is He allowing all the sicknesses and problems? If God is love, why is He allowing a drought in America?” These are the kind of questions that have to be solved if the great controversy is to come to an end.

So what does God do? God actually assumes the blame! He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. There is a text which I want you to look for, it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment.

[Guest]

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon."

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294,295}

[CoAspen]

The view of God the destroyer started with Satan and continues today. Satan started the whole concept of salvation by works and even those today who reject that idea still maintain a potion of that concept. The Bible attributes good and evil to God. The question is how do we separate out the real God that Christ came to exemplify. Humans, I believe, are inbreed with the idea of God being destructive to those that do not accept him as a result of the idea implanted by Satan and continued on by sin. Sin seems to be very little understood, even today and after Christs example to us by His time spent on earth. The human condition says, "it's someones fault and not mine". The very essence of 'sin' is the rejection of Gods love for us in the desire to follow our own path. God has extended 'protection' from sin, by acceptance of the death of Christ, yet at times we still want to blame Him! Evil, sin, destroys! it is not compatible with the natural laws of God, to put it simply. If one is not under the protection of God, one dies the eternal death, our choice. Only humans desire to make it complicated thus excluding those who are seen as not having the right 'view' of salvation according to ones own personal interpretation. Verification can be seen through out the many posts having to do with theology on these many thread!

One day we will fully understand, but not now, so accept the good news!!!!

OOH

[Robert]

fire from God out of heaven rained upon them

EGW is quoting the Bible, that however doesn't prove or disprove my position. Keep in mind that EGW is not the final word (even though I myself quote her):

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

Glimmer: "To shine faintly"

[Gibs]

Here is a couple little reads on this from EGW and for me this is straight testimony.

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners. {GC 422.2}

Read this next one carefully, when she says "I Saw", sit up and pay attention!

Then I saw that Jesus' work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the Scape Goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes His place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the Scape Goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the Scape Goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head. {SpM 2.1}

The great white cloud I saw was not the holy place, but entirely separate from the holy and most holy place, entirely separate from the sanctuary. {SpM 2.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes His place upon the great white cloud.

This is symbolic language....The plagues do not come from God. God is not the author of sin & death. When universal rejection of the gospel comes, then Christ will abandon the self-righteous. Trouble comes because Christ is absent.

[cheddar]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes His place upon the great white cloud.

This is symbolic language....The plagues do not come from God. God is not the author of sin & death. When universal rejection of the gospel comes, then Christ will abandon the self-righteous. Trouble comes because Christ is absent.

To what lengths will you go to justify your unbiblical position!

So I guess the plagues that fell on Egypt were symbolic too - LOL

[Robert]

To what lengths will you go to justify your unbiblical position!

So I guess the plagues that fell on Egypt were symbolic too - LOL

Laugh it up....Stating that my position is unbiblical doesn't make it so. My reference to symbolism was to the underlined - i.e., "garments of vengeance". The plagues do not originate from God. God is not is the business of acting like a devil.

[cheddar]

Laugh it up....Stating that my position is unbiblical doesn't make it so. My reference to symbolism was to the underlined - i.e., "garments of vengeance". The plagues do not originate from God. God is not is the business of acting like a devil.

But the devil is in the business of acting like God.

Maybe he'll be kind and compassionate when he comes pretending to be Jesus.

A lot of sincere Christians might be fooled if they don't know God's character.

[Robert]

Then My anger [God's Wrath against sin - His justice] shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured; and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, `Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?" [ De 31:17]

Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I [God] will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' [Matt 26:31]

He [God - at the incarnation] made Him [Jesus as God] who knew no sin to be sin [as one of us]....[2 Cor 5:21]

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI , ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" [Matt 27:46]

"But he [Christ] endured the suffering that should have been ours, the pain that we should have borne. All the while we thought [i.e., we assumed] that his suffering was punishment from God." [is 53:4]

Here's the thing -- was God's "wrath" passive or active? In other words did God destroy Christ? Remember Christ died the death that the unbeliever will die, i.e., the 2nd death.

Let's look at EGW (because here she is 100% accurate):

The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb [Why? Because the hope of the resurrection, God, had abandoned Christ] . Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal [That's the 2nd death]. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. [DA 653]

Did you get that? The Bible says, "Christ tasted death for all men" [Hebrews 2:9] He experience God's wrath against sin, which is God abandonment.

Think about it, if God had remained with Christ no one could have touched Him. Christ would have never experienced the 2nd death, which again is, God's departure.

Why would God act differently with the unbeliever? If God handed over Christ to the surrounding destruction, why would God do differently with the unbeliever?

Christ's torment...Christ's death was due to His Father's abandonment. This is the curse of the law that Paul speaks of in Gal chapter 3.

Now in Revelation we are told that the lake of fire is the 2nd death. Here, let's look at this:

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Again, what's the 2nd death? Not fire and brimstone...not a wooden cross, but no hope of a resurrection.

What happened when God abandoned Christ? The surrounding forces destroyed Him. In this case it was the Romans and the Jews.

What will happen when God's abandons the unbelievers? The surrounding forces will destroy them.

As I've stated many a time, God is holding back the winds of calamity. Why do you think that this world has earthquakes & volcanic activity? Because it's coming apart and if wasn't for God we would have been destroyed.

In the end God will abandon not only the unbeliever, but the earth. When He does this calamity will destroy the unbeliever. This leads to the 2nd death.

[cheddar]

Then My anger [God's Wrath against sin - His justice] shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured; and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, `Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?" [ De 31:17]

I agree with the concepts of passive wrath and active wrath.

There were many times in the bible when God removes his protection and terrible things happen (usually from Satan).

But there are also times when God actively punishes men (usually thru his angels and sometimes by his own hand).

[Robert]

But there are also times when God actively punishes men (usually thru his angels and sometimes by his own hand).

Disagree

[Windsor]

God does actively intervene from time to time in order to preserve His people. These are strange acts that are not part of the usual wages of sin. Examples include the very first passover, the fire Elijah called down on those who came to take him captive, the Assyrian army who would assuredly have wiped out Israel otherwise.

[Guest]

There were many times in the bible when God removes his protection and terrible things happen (usually from Satan).

But there are also times when God actively punishes men (usually thru his angels and sometimes by his own hand).

This fact is a constant throughout the Bible. And it was Jesus who cursed the fig tree and made it wither and die, not Satan.

Why did He do it? Because it wouldn't bare fruit.

[Robert]

....it was Jesus who cursed the fig tree and made it wither and die, not Satan.

Why did He do it? Because it wouldn't bare fruit.

Wow, you place human, sinful emotions on Christ who was and is sinless.

It was an object lesson for the disciples. The tree represented the Jewish nation. On the outside they like a white-washed tomb, but on the inside they were full of dead man's bones. They bore no fruit because they were self-righteous.

[cheddar]

Wow, you place human, sinful emotions on Christ who was and is sinless.

It was an object lesson for the disciples. The tree represented the Jewish nation. On the outside they like a white-washed tomb, but on the inside they were full of dead man's bones. They bore no fruit because they were self-righteous.

God can express anger, jealousy and all the emotions without any sin. That’s hard for us to imagine because whenever we express them it’s usually polluted with sin. The bible says – ‘be ye angry and sin not’ – and Paul said it, not me.

Your version of an emotionless Christ sounds like the Catholic version and that’s an abomination.

[Q.E.D.]

Now in Revelation we are told that the lake of fire is the 2nd death. Here, let's look at this:

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Again, what's the 2nd death? Not fire and brimstone...not a wooden cross, but no hope of a resurrection.

Perhaps I missed something. . .

Is it humanly possible to make any kind of logical sense of the 2 statements above from Robert?

Q.E.D.

[Felix Florimon]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Now in Revelation we are told that the lake of fire is the 2nd death. Here, let's look at this:

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Again, what's the 2nd death? Not fire and brimstone...not a wooden cross, but no hope of a resurrection.

Perhaps I missed something. . .

Is it humanly possible to make any kind of logical sense of the 2 statements above from Robert?

Q.E.D.

Most likely he means that during a future event when this earth is purified with fire and brimstone, people of evil will be in that fire. This fire will cause them a second death because after they died before Jesus returned to establish His rule on Earth, they were brought back to life in order to see and hear God’s final judgment on this world. That second death will obliterate them from God’s memory and from the memory of God’s children. This is why there cannot be any resurrection for them.

FF

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

You can live in your make-believe view of God. I'll stick to what the Bible says.

What you are sticking to is tradition....Here's what Ellen White states:

...

I quoted and based my position in the Bible. You consider the Bible as mere tradition? Whew, whatta man.

[Robert]

God can express anger, jealousy and all the emotions without any sin.

Is 53:4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

From the human point of view it looks as if God were angry and did these terrible things to Christ, but He didn't because God had "hide His face". God had abandoned Christ.

[Robert]

Is it humanly possible to make any kind of logical sense of the 2 statements above from Robert?

Q.E.D.

The lake of fire causes the 2nd death. No one has experienced the 2nd death accept for Christ. What is the 2nd death?

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us....Why did Christ die?

Because God abandoned Christ! That's the justice of the law.

The lake of fire is the result of God's abandonment of the earth. That's the curse of the law. As EGW states, "God destroys no man" - man, by rejecting the life giver, destroys Himself.

[Robert]

You consider the Bible as mere tradition? Whew, whatta man.

No, your interpretation is traditional, not the Bible.