Prophetic Day=Year Principle - Biblical?

[Lysimachus]

The Jewish scholars who translated the Septuagint did not understand this the way you explain it. They translated "Shabuim" into Greek as hemdomades which they only used in Daniel 9:24,25 and in one other place, where the word obviously refers to groups of seven years (not weeks of days): Leviticus 25:8 "You are also to count off seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years, so that you have the time of the seven sabbaths of years, namely, forty-nine years."

Did you pay careful attention by the sound scholarship produced by Dr. Frank W. Hardy, proving that the expression is "weeks" and not "sevens"?

Do know that the word "weeks" does mean "sevens", but it is being employed in a sense of "a week of seven days", hence the word "shabuam".

Ron, the 70 weeks are based on the day-year principle. Have you read Dr. William Shea's sound exegesis for this in his book, "Selected Studies on Prophetic Interpretation". Have you read this book?

Adventism has a SPECIAL message for the world.

And they better listen! And they need to QUIT arguing!

[Ron Amnsn]

At the end of the 70 weeks (or 490 years), we finally arrive at the year 34 A.D. when the last prophet was sent to Israel, Stephen. In 34 A.D. is when Stephen was stoned by the Sanhedrin, the leaders of the Jewish nation. This was national Israel's final sin. This was the year that Saul was converted and became Paul. This was the year that Peter received the vision of the net to go preach to the gentiles. This year was also practically about the time Phillip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch. This was the year that the Gospel went out to the Gentiles. This was the year when probation closed for the Jews as a nation (not as individuals). This was the END of the 70th week!! So the 70 weeks prophecy meets an EXACT fulfillment between 457 B.C. and 34 A.D.

Lysimachus, there's lots to agree with in your post about the 490 years.

The part that isn't convincing to me is the timing of all these events that you place in AD 34. What evidence is this based on? Where is it recorded which year Stephen was stoned? Where is it recorded which year Paul accepted Jesus as the Messiah (Paul was not "converted")? Where is it recorded which year Peter had the vision and went to preach to Cornelius and his household?

Of course, I also question the idea that the 490 years was a period of probation for the Jewish nation because that concept is unsupported in Scripture and defies God's Word as spoken through Jeremiah, other OT prophets and the NT. I also question the teaching that Messiah put an end to the significance of the sacrificial system because that also contradicts God's Word as spoken through Moses, Jeremiah, and the NT.

[Lysimachus]

Concerning the 42 months of Revelation: 1260 literal days or symbolic days that represent literal years?

The scriptures demand the following of the time period in question:

1. That it be Exactly 42 months (Rev. 11:2; 12:6)

2. That it be Exactly 1260 days (Rev. 11:3; 13:5)

3. That it be Exactly 3.5 years (Dan. 7:25; 12:7; Rev. 12:14)

If we go by the Solar Calendar of 365.2422 days, then we must multiply it by 3.5:

365.2422 x 3.5 = 1,278 days... not 1260. That's an 18 day discrepancy!

That being said, 1260 days (which the Bible also calls "42 months") is not actually 42 months, but less than 41 and 1/2 months.

But let's assume we are using a Lunar Calendar then:

A prophecy of 42 months or 1260 days requires that each month be exactly "30 days" in length.

But a Lunar Month is never exactly 30 days long. On average, it is 29.530588 days in length.

That would make each Lunar Year 354.367056 days in length. NOT 360!!

Remember, 360 x 3.5 = 1260!

But no, we must go by the Lunar Calendar as do Futurists, and see what we come up to:

354.367056 x 3.5 = 1240.284696 days! NOT 1260! It gets worse, it's now 20 days off! and LESS!

(you can come to this same calculation if you simply multiply 42 months x 29.530588 days)

We see now why God gave us this time period in 3 definite phrases, where the specification of this prophecy requires the time to be:

1. Exactly "forty and two months" (42 months)

2. Exactly "one thousand two hundred and three score days" (1260 days)

3. Exactly "time, times, and dividing of time" (3.5 years)

With this in mind, we see why symbolic time is the ONLY available option left to make these time units work out with any real time period in Bible prophecy. There is no existing month with exactly 30 days, and there is no existing year with exactly 360 days. It can only be a symbolic time measurement.

The only way for it to have been literal time is if Daniel or John had used the terms:

"three years and six months" (Luke 4:25; James 5:17) -- and it is the only logical way to describe it if meaning literal time, and not symbolic time.

[Ron Amnsn]

Do you mean Maccabees? An uninspired book? Are you basing your doctrine off of an uninspired book Ron?

The books of Maccabees are simply history. They talk about real people who lived in the Promised Land during the time when the Greek empire ruled. Those people had access to the prophecies of Daniel and would have noticed the accurate match between what Daniel prophesied in Daniel 8 and what occurred during their own lifetime.

Your acknowledgement that those Jews could have matched the little horn of Daniel 8 to Antiachus Epiphenes refutes your previous assertion that such a view originated with the pagan Porphyry.

I think you realize that much of the interpretation of prophecy that SDA's teach is based on uninspired books of history that tell us when empires, rulers, and popes rose and fell, lived and died, etc. That's what history is useful for.

You should also realize that EGW recommended the books of the apocrypha, which includes the books of Maccabees, as hidden books that contained useful information.

[Ron Amnsn]

78 x 29.530588 days = 2303.4. less 2 days = 2301.4 days.

CLOSE! But still don't work, as God's time tables are PRECISE!

If you were living according to the Law of Moses as Jesus did, as Paul did, and as all God's faithful did while the Scriptures were being written, you'd more easily understand that your calculations are incongruent with the calendar that God gave his people to live by.

None of the months ever contain a partial day. The lunar month averages about 29.53 days, but in real life each month is either 29 or 30 whole days long. The number of days in a sequence of 78 consecutive months can easily vary by a day or two, depending on how many 29-day months and how many 30-day months are in the sequence. Sometimes when the sky is overcast it is not possible to view the new moon so the months default to 30 days each (as during Noah's flood) until the new moon could be sighted again.

If for no other reason than being able to understand the Bible calendar and how it relates to prophecy, students of the Bible should try living like Jesus did-- according to God's law as given to his people through Moses.

[Ron Amnsn]

Conclusion:

I guess the Adventist reckoning of the 2300 days is the ONLY last resort that FITS THE BILL!

Lysimachus, when you start a study with a pre-decided conclusion in mind, and you firmly believe that anyone who deviates from that conclusion is an apostate, did you really think that you might possibly learn something different than what you started with?

I didn't think you would either. Such methods turn the study of Scripture into a sham. The founders of the SDA church would be ashamed.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Do you mean Maccabees? An uninspired book? Are you basing your doctrine off of an uninspired book Ron?

The books of Maccabees are simply history. They talk about real people who lived in the Promised Land during the time when the Greek empire ruled. Those people had access to the prophecies of Daniel and would have noticed the accurate match between what Daniel prophesied in Daniel 8 and what occurred during their own lifetime.

Your acknowledgement that those Jews could have matched the little horn of Daniel 8 to Antiachus Epiphenes refutes your previous assertion that such a view originated with the pagan Porphyry.

I think you realize that much of the interpretation of prophecy that SDA's teach is based on uninspired books of history that tell us when empires, rulers, and popes rose and fell, lived and died, etc. That's what history is useful for.

You should also realize that EGW recommended the books of the apocrypha, which includes the books of Maccabees, as hidden books that contained useful information.

1. I never stated that the view originated from Porphyry. But Porphyry APPEALED to this Maccabeen argument to discredit the scriptures. Since the time of the Maccabees, Porphyry was the first to bring it up.

2. Actually, that is not the case. Please read the full story on what Ellen White meant about the Apocrypha:

http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/apocrypha.html

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

78 x 29.530588 days = 2303.4. less 2 days = 2301.4 days.

CLOSE! But still don't work, as God's time tables are PRECISE!

If you were living according to the Law of Moses as Jesus did, as Paul did, and as all God's faithful did while the Scriptures were being written, you'd more easily understand that your calculations are incongruent with the calendar that God gave his people to live by.

None of the months ever contain a partial day. The lunar month averages about 29.53 days, but in real life each month is either 29 or 30 whole days long. The number of days in a sequence of 78 consecutive months can easily vary by a day or two, depending on how many 29-day months and how many 30-day months are in the sequence. Sometimes when the sky is overcast it is not possible to view the new moon so the months default to 30 days each (as during Noah's flood) until the new moon could be sighted again.

If for no other reason than being able to understand the Bible calendar and how it relates to prophecy, students of the Bible should try living like Jesus did-- according to God's law as given to his people through Moses.

Sounds like what you are promoting is God being an author of confusion.

God expected mankind to easily count days and compare those days with history to see if the prophecy was fulfilled.

For you to say that the common man must go to school to understand the Jewish calendar before they are able to compare these prophetic time periods with historical events, is sheer foolishness.

Ron, you weary me.

Are you willing to admit, at all, that just maybe... just maybe you might be wrong, and the Adventist reckoning of the 2300 days may be correct?

Your alternatives to the Adventist positions are severely lacking. If one takes in the totality of Daniel 8, there are too many qualifications and attributes that will just not fit Antiochus IV Epiphanies.

[Gustave]

It proves just the absolute oposite Gustave. It proves He is the one to come and when and He did spot on time.

[Ron Amnsn]

1. I never stated that the view originated from Porphyry. But Porphyry APPEALED to this Maccabeen argument to discredit the scriptures. Since the time of the Maccabees, Porphyry was the first to bring it up.

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

You should also realize that EGW recommended the books of the apocrypha, which includes the books of Maccabees, as hidden books that contained useful information.

2. Actually, that is not the case. Please read the full story on what Ellen White meant about the Apocrypha:

http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/apocrypha.html

The page you linked takes a somewhat different slant than most people would get from reading the full story in context. Nevertheless, even if the article you linked were the correct interpretation of EGW's statement about the apocrypha, what I wrote would still be true. I did not claim that EGW said the apocrypha was inspired nor did I claim that EGW said the apocrypha was on par with the Bible. I only said what I said.

[Ron Amnsn]

Sounds like what you are promoting is God being an author of confusion.

God expected mankind to easily count days and compare those days with history to see if the prophecy was fulfilled.

For you to say that the common man must go to school to understand the Jewish calendar before they are able to compare these prophetic time periods with historical events, is sheer foolishness.

Why would it be confusing for people to interpret prophecy using the same calendar that they used for everyday life? God's people used the Bible calendar all through the period when the Bible was being written. Modern Christians are the ones who are out of step with God's calendar because long ago they adopted a calendar introduced by Pope Gregory XIII (and before that a calendar introduced by a Roman emperor) choosing to abandon and be ignorant of the calendar of the Bible.

Nobody said the common man must go to school to understand the calendar used in the Bible. What I said was that students of the Bible should live according to the Law of Moses like Jesus did, then they would better understand what the Bible is talking about.

To admit that we don't even understand the calendar that Jesus lived by is a rather serious admission, which should serve as a wake-up call to those who claim to be Jesus' followers. It shows how far we really have drifted from God's ways.

[Gustave]

The prophecy is actually for 1150 days....

...Exactly the number of days the Temple had it's services halted.

1 Macc 1, 57 START

On the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred and forty-fifth year, king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God, and they built altars throughout all the cities of Juda round about: And they burnt incense, and sacrificed at the doors of the houses, and in the streets. And they cut in pieces, and burnt with fire the books of the law of God: And every one with whom the books of the testament of the Lord were found, and whosoever observed the law of the Lord, they put to death, according to the edict of the king.

1 Macc 4,52 END

And they arose before the morning on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month (which is the month of Casleu) in the hundred and forty-eighth year. And they offered sacrifice according to the law upon the new altar of holocausts which they had made.

The calendar used was the only one common at that time...

...This equates to 2300 SACRIFICES ( one in the morning & one at Night ).

3 x 360 equals ********************1080 days

2 x 30 (2 intercalary months)******* ****60 days

From 15th to 25th equals **************10 days

___________________________________________

Total ****************************1150 days

[Ron Amnsn]

Are you willing to admit, at all, that just maybe... just maybe you might be wrong, and the Adventist reckoning of the 2300 days may be correct?

Your alternatives to the Adventist positions are severely lacking. If one takes in the totality of Daniel 8, there are too many qualifications and attributes that will just not fit Antiochus IV Epiphanies.

I'm quite willing to admit that I might be wrong.

I'm willing to admit that Antiochus may not be the little horn of Daniel 8. He does not seem to be a perfect fit for the prophecy. It could be that the 2300 evening-mornings refer to a time period that is still "sealed" or still future.

Despite the problems and lack of evidence to support the SDA interpretation of the 2300 evening-mornings, it is possible that it could be correct. If it is, it seems that someone would be able and willing to explain that interpretation to the common man without contradicting what is written in other parts of Scripture, without wresting passages from the context in which God provided them to us, and without needlessly condemning folks who can't yet see the validity of the interpretation.

I don't see anywhere in Scripture where God has authorized his followers to condemn others who don't interpret prophecy in some certain fashion.

[Ron Amnsn]

The calendar used was the only one common at that time...

...This equates to 2300 SACRIFICES ( one in the morning & one at Night ).

3 x 360 equals ********************1080 days

2 x 30 (2 intercalary months)******* ****60 days

From 15th to 25th equals **************10 days

___________________________________________

Total ****************************1150 days

Gustave, what calendar is this?

[jasd]

>>CLOSE! But still don't work, as God's time tables are PRECISE!<<

Umm, mebbe Gd forgot that He has been assigned 'idiomatic' language?--to wit, the arguments made re the Friday evening through Sunday morning crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ Gd...

>>With this in mind, we see why symbolic time is the ONLY available option left to make these time units work out with any real time period in Bible prophecy.<<

Then again, there is the literal equivalently approximate language or the lingua franca v symbolic prophetic day-for-year language .

Oh, what tangled folly our missteps doth conclude when first we practice to run - not being sent...

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

That reads, "the book": not this, that, or the other part of the book. The entirety, until... "many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" - at "the time of the end". Period. Full Stop.

It is now the time for searching for real understanding of the book of Daniel; rather than rehashing centuries-old constructs. Sez so in the book.

Anyway, the only evidence remaining in Writ for the amount of numbered days in a year lies with the Noahide calendar, suggesting a year was one of 360 days duration -- leaving the option of a periodic adjustment involving cumulative years - or one containing interstices within each recurring year... I incline towards the idea that Writ supports a 360-day year containing interstices set by the priesthood.

[jasd]

>>I saw that the Apocrypha was the hidden book, and that the wise of these last days should understand it.<< [--EGWhite]

One may think so, I mean - if Jesus Christ referenced them some good baker's dozen times - perhaps there are some things the wise amongst us might do well to understand of them. After all, many of them are listed among the Deuterocanonical books, which are:

James

1 Peter

2 Peter

1 John

Jude

Revelation

Daniel

Baruch

Tobit

Judith

Sirach

Wisdom

The NT references the Apocrypha more than 300 times; notwithstanding Luther, Bible Societies, the more than 30,000 Protesting .orgs, and sundry others ill-disposed toward the Apocrypha.

It is within the book of Esdras wherein we find that, upon the crumbling of the Assyrian Empire, the elders of the COI took counsel among themselves and elected to migrate northwards through the Caucasus - rather than return to old Canaanland. Esdras goes on to inform his readers that it took the COI two and a half years to traverse the Caucasus en masse - emerging upon The Great Steppe (Southern Russia/Central Asia), dispersing ever Northward and Westward.

Hmm, who then might be today's Caucasians? Perhaps, the expositor does not do him/herself well to disregard the Apocrypha out-of-hand... (besides, there is proffered a natural cure for cataracts in one of those books ;-)

Anyway, it is upon this stage where the promises of Gd re nations and kings unfolded throught the 'Seven-times curse/judgement' of Leviticus 26 of a prophetic 2520-year period - the ending terminus of which first occured in the year AD 1776 - the year America fruited.

North America is the culmination of the Northward and Westward journey... from the Westward reaches of the Pacific to the Northward reach of Alaska. And it is here where the prophecy of Hosea is borne out:

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.

Do you not hear in this land - every preacher proclaiming that though we are not Gd's people, we are the sons and daughters of Gd?

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

The calendar used was the only one common at that time...

...This equates to 2300 SACRIFICES ( one in the morning & one at Night ).

3 x 360 equals ********************1080 days

2 x 30 (2 intercalary months)******* ****60 days

From 15th to 25th equals **************10 days

___________________________________________

Total ****************************1150 days

Gustave, what calendar is this?

Hebrew calendar, 360 day year....

...There was no 365 day callendar in operation at that time.

...Antiochus would have been using the same calendar as it was essentially the same for the Greeks.

See "Herodotus" life of a man.

[Gustave]

Ron Anmsn, see section 32 of the following link.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh1030.htm

The math shows a 360 day year.....

...With the needed added months to align the seasons.

...It works out to exactly 1150 days.

...Which is 2300 evening and morning sacrifices ( 2 sacrifices each and every day ).

No wonder Christ observed the Feast of the Dedication.

Herodotus

The limit of life for a man I lay down at seventy years: and these seventy years give twenty-five thousand and two hundred days, not reckoning for any intercalated month. Then if every other one of these years shall be made longer by one month, that the seasons may be caused to come round at the due time of the year, the intercalated months will be in number five-and-thirty besides the seventy years; and of these months the days will be one thousand and fifty. Of all these days, being in number twenty-six thousand two hundred and fifty, which go to the seventy years, one day produces nothing at all which resembles what another brings with it.

[Ron Amnsn]

Hebrew calendar, 360 day year....

...There was no 365 day callendar in operation at that time.

...Antiochus would have been using the same calendar as it was essentially the same for the Greeks.

See "Herodotus" life of a man.

A 360-day year would rarely align with the lunar months.

Can you give me more specific info on where to find the details of this calendar. The commentary I have on Herodotus says the Greeks in his day were using a 354-day calendar with intercalary months inserted. That sounds similar to the calendar the Jews were using in NT times.

[Ron Amnsn]

Ok, thanks. What is Hebrew about the calendar calculations that Herodotus tells of Solon the Athenian using to approximate the number of days in a man's life?

Is there anywhere else that documents the use of such a calendar?

[Gustave]

Herodotus wrote that in approx 445 B.C. depending on what I've been able to tell...

...A 360 day year can't align with lunar months thus months are added.

...The ancient Greek calendar was indeed 364 days.

One can't deny that Herodotus wrote that & that it works out to be a 360 day year with intercalated months every other year...

...It would have been the same to Solon, Croesus and obviously Antiochus - as well as Judas Maccabees.

...It is interesting.

[Ron Amnsn]

Herodotus wrote that in approx 445 B.C. depending on what I've been able to tell...

...A 360 day year can't align with lunar months thus months are added.

...The ancient Greek calendar was indeed 364 days.

One can't deny that Herodotus wrote that & that it works out to be a 360 day year with intercalated months every other year...

...It would have been the same to Solon, Croesus and obviously Antiochus - as well as Judas Maccabees.

...It is interesting.

So, you're extrapolating from a Greek narrative about a man doing a rough calculation of the total number of days in the seventy years of a man's life, as part of a philosophical discussion about a rich man's days being much the same as a poor man's days. Solon wasn't explaining how a calendar works, nor trying to establish dates or holidays or time spans. Yes, we can learn something from his assumptions and calculations, but it doesn't help us know what kind of calendar God's faithful Jews were using in Jerusalem.

Adding 30-day intercalary months won't do anything at all to help align the calendar months to the lunar months. To keep a lunar calander aligned with the cycle of the moon you need either complex astronomical calculations (as the Jewish calendar uses) or new moon sightings to determine when a new month should start (as a Biblical calendar uses). The sort of calendar described by Solon in Herodotus would be useless for a faithful Hebrew wanting to keep God's appointed feasts.

[Gustave]

Herodotus certainly pulled the initial figure for how long the man would live out of the air...

...Once that figure was established the actual days of life was based on the calendation of that time.

...There is more than one type of calendation spoken of in Scripture.

...Certainly there is evidence of a 360 day / year calendar.

I've got some examples of this from the Bible I will post up....

...Unless you are already familiar with them and have an answer / reason they are not valid.

As for the Luni / solar calendar used by Moses, Yes I'm familiar with it...

...All "the Feasts of the Lord" were indeed calculated off that calendation system.

...It would appear that prophetic events were however often spoken of using a 360 day/ year calendar.

[Gustave]

Gen 7,11

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. .

And

Gen 8,3-4

And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

.

150 days divided by 30 days a month = 5 months, 30 days x 12 months = 360 days

Of course this isn't the only case in Scripture where the math works out this way...

...The same is easily demonstrated in Revelation & other places.