Prophetic Day=Year Principle - Biblical?

[Samie]

Dear fellow-SDA member;

Do you consider yourself as one of the people Sister White described God will have upon the earth?

Quote:

But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,—not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support. {RH June 7, 1906, par. 5}

Do you search the Bible and through the Holy Spirit learn from it instead of merely relying on what those of great minds consider to be what the Bible means?

Quote:

Satan is constantly endeavoring to attract attention to man in the place of God. He leads the people to look to bishops, to pastors, to professors of theology, as their guides, instead of searching the Scriptures to learn their duty for themselves. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will. {RH June 7, 1906, par. 6}

Are you ready to be in harmony with those who take the Bible and the Bible alone as their creed?

Quote:

When God’s Word is studied, comprehended, and obeyed, a bright light will be reflected to the world; new truths, received and acted upon, will bind us in strong bonds to Jesus. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God’s Word is infallible. Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, “It is written.” Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed, The Bible our rule of faith and discipline.—The Review and Herald, December 15, 1885. {1SM 416.2}

If your answer is Yes to all of the above questions, then, you are one of the people God will have upon the earth to uphold Scriptures alone as standard of all doctrines and basis of all reforms.

Welcome to the school of the foolish in the eyes of the world... Our Master Teacher would be happy to have you in His class.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 1:25, 27

25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong

[Johnnboy]

Samie,

We really appreciate your posting these excellent quotations. This is how we believe.

God has a present truth in every generation. Those who accept the truth as God brings it will have more truth unfolded to them. The Bible is the rule by which to judge whether something is really truth or not. New truth will not contradict the old truth.

In the plan of salvation there are events that have transpired and there are events that are yet future.

As Jesus interpretated the feasts relating to His first advent, the feast days relating to His second advent must be fulfilled according to that interpretation. We must study just how He fulfilled those first advent types.

Moses prophecies and Jesus interpretation both show that the judgment of the living must occur at the close of a future 2300 literal days, just as the judgment of the dead occurred at the close of 2300 "prophetic" days, on a Day of Atonement.

The Day of Atonement was always the day of judgment, the cleansing of the sanctuary in the annual feasts.

[Ron Amnsn]

These are irrefutable spiritual discerning truths which the rebellious man against Adventism holds in contempt.

Lysimachus, it appears that you are telling untruths about what I believe and disbelieve. That is not a characteristic of someone who actually values truth. You are quick to label those who disagree with you, but you are not careful to check that the label is truthfully applied. How can you serve the God of truth by speaking untruthfully about others? You would do far better to limit yourself to describing what you believe, and let others describe what they believe.

It seems that you have assumed that a student of Scripture who values the earthly Temple, as Jesus did, cannot also value the heavenly Temple where Jesus is High Priest. A person can and should value both, for that is what Scripture teaches.

I'm not sure how a person would be "rebellious against Adventism". The Scripture doesn't say anything about owing allegiance or loyalty to "Adventism". I can't find where Paul teaches anything like that as part of the Gospel. Such allegiance to "Adventism" must be part of a different gospel than the Gospel that Paul taught. Does "Adventism" somehow come between the believer and Jesus so that a person follows "Adventism" instead of following Jesus and the Word of God?

[Gustave]

While E.G. White supports the "prophetic" fulfillment of the 2300 "prophetic days" ending on Tuesday, October 22, 1844, she makes very clear that "prophetic time" ended in 1844. We need to understand what "prophetic time" actually is--"prophetic time" is really a time period that is "prophetic". It is a prophecy in itself of a still future time period, which would be fulfilled in literal time, not "prophetic time".

[cheddar]

As Jesus interpretated the feasts relating to His first advent, the feast days relating to His second advent must be fulfilled according to that interpretation. We must study just how He fulfilled those first advent types.

Moses prophecies and Jesus interpretation both show that the judgment of the living must occur at the close of a future 2300 literal days, just as the judgment of the dead occurred at the close of 2300 "prophetic" days, on a Day of Atonement.

The Day of Atonement was always the day of judgment, the cleansing of the sanctuary in the annual feasts.

So when are the trumpets of Revelation (feast of trumpets) fulfilled - past or future?

The 6th trumpet talks about an army of 200 million. Nothing like that has ever happened - Ever!

Historicists will say it's symbolic because they have no credible answer.

[Samie]

Samie,

We really appreciate your posting these excellent quotations. This is how we believe.

God has a present truth in every generation. Those who accept the truth as God brings it will have more truth unfolded to them. The Bible is the rule by which to judge whether something is really truth or not. New truth will not contradict the old truth.

[Samie]

...

This brings me to a question johnnyboy - why do SDA's teach that a prophetic year is 360 days...

...Then when it comes to the 2300 YEAR prophecy the calculations are made with a Gregorian year?

...I would be interested in your take on this.

Take pity on an ignorant Catholic and help me out.

Sorry to interfere, but when it comes to what Scriptures say and based on what the Master Teacher Himself delineated, the 2300 days, the 3-1/2 years, the 70 weeks, the 1290 and 1335 days in Daniel are all literal. The prophecies where these periods of time are linked are yet to be fulfilled in the future shortly before the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...

This brings me to a question johnnyboy - why do SDA's teach that a prophetic year is 360 days...

...Then when it comes to the 2300 YEAR prophecy the calculations are made with a Gregorian year?

...I would be interested in your take on this.

Take pity on an ignorant Catholic and help me out.

Sorry to interfere, but when it comes to what Scriptures say and based on what the Master Teacher Himself delineated, . The prophecies where these periods of time are linked are yet to be fulfilled in the future shortly before the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

There was an evening and morning sacrifice, that's TWO sacrifices per day....

...2300 "sacrifices" with 2 per day equates to 1150 literal DAYS .

...Which was fulfilled PRIOR to the Incarnation of Christ.

...Which is WHY Jesus OBSERVED the Feast of the Dedication.

SDA's maintain the Liturgical services of the Temple were poluted starting in 457 A.D.

...And remained poluted ( invalid ) through that time to October 22, 1844.

...Which, if true, would require that Christ did NOT fulfill Scripture!

The fact remains that St. Luke records that Christ observed the Feast of the Dedication....

...Which was UNIVERSALLY understood by the Jews.

...As a celebration of when the Temple again became Liturgically VALID.

...Subsequent to the actions of the Little Horn of Daniel.

I've already posted the calendation which shows Daniel's 2300 sacrifice prophecy....

...Was fulfilled TO THE DAY by the actions of and defeat of A.E.

The SDA's themselves appeal to a prophetic 360 day per year calendar when it suites them....

...But when the math does not work in their favor appeal to a Gregorian 365 day per year calendar.

...Would you care to discuss that here with me?

[Johnnboy]

Gustave, Truth must become more important than all else beside. The genuine search for the truth must become all absorbing in each of our lives. Jesus said, “Seek and ye shall find...knock and it shall be opened.” None of us should be curtailed by an affiliation with any organization, so that we are limited in our search.

Yes, and Ellen thought the years were a "literal" 2300 years...

...That's exactly my point.

[Samie]

...

There was an evening and morning sacrifice, that's TWO sacrifices per day....

...2300 "sacrifices" with 2 per day equates to 1150 literal DAYS .

...Which was fulfilled PRIOR to the Incarnation of Christ.

...Which is WHY Jesus OBSERVED the Feast of the Dedication.

[Gustave]

Gustave, Truth must become more important than all else beside. The genuine search for the truth must become all absorbing in each of our lives. Jesus said, “Seek and ye shall find...knock and it shall be opened.” None of us should be curtailed by an affiliation with any organization, so that we are limited in our search

[Gustave]

I observe you jumped to your conclusion too fast, too soon. Mere presence in a ceremony does not necessarily mean observance of it. Did you forget Daniel's 3 friends in the fiery furnace (Dan 3)?

[cheddar]

I've already posted the calendation which shows Daniel's 2300 sacrifice prophecy....

...Was fulfilled TO THE DAY by the actions of and defeat of A.E.

It would be absolutely impossible for Antiochus Epiphanes to have set up the abomination of desolation.

Jesus spoke of the AOD as being a future event from his day. AE live almost 200 years before Christ was even born and he doesn’t even mention it.

Your sound biblical scholarship is full of holes.

[Ron Amnsn]

It would be absolutely impossible for Antiochus Epiphanes to have set up the abomination of desolation.

Jesus spoke of the AOD as being a future event from his day. AE live almost 200 years before Christ was even born and he doesn’t even mention it.

Let's put these things back into context.

Here's what Jesus said:

"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matt 24:15-16, also in Mark 13:14)

Jesus was speaking to people who were in Judea living under Roman occupation, many of whom would be around 40 years later when the Romans came to lay siege to Jerusalem.

Notice the phrase, "Let the reader understand." It doesn't say, "Let the reader speculate", or "guess", or "calculate", which is what Christians have been doing for centuries, but rather it says, "understand".

The Jews had been annually celebrating the defeat of Antiochus. They were familiar with what Antiochus did. So it is possible that they actually could understand what Jesus was talking about when he said "the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel". That was history. They could watch for another foreign ruler doing like Antiochus.

A similar situation would be if someone today said, "Those in Seattle should flee to the mountains when you see the Trojan Horse." That wouldn't mean that there had never been a real Trojan Horse in existence before, but rather, that when you see a horse in Seattle like the Trojans used it's time to get out of there.

[Gustave]

It would be absolutely impossible for Antiochus Epiphanes to have set up the abomination of desolation.

[cheddar]

So are there multiple abominations of desolation? How many abominations will there be? 3, 4 or 5 – the sky’s the limit.

This is just more faulty historical logic. There is only one AOD and the reason why is because this event is tied to the 1290 day time period. If there were multiple versions how would we know which one is linked to the time period?

Daniel is clear that the little horn removes the daily and exactly 1290 days later the abomination is set up. Antiochus does not fit that and neither does Rome so common sense demands that we look for a future fulfillment.

[Ron Amnsn]

Daniel is clear that the little horn removes the daily and exactly 1290 days later the abomination is set up. Antiochus does not fit that and neither does Rome so common sense demands that we look for a future fulfillment.

You could be right.

Then the warning that Jesus gave to those living in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation in the holy place would be future as well. What about those who are not in Judea?

[cheddar]

Then the warning that Jesus gave to those living in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation in the holy place would be future as well. What about those who are not in Judea?

I think the beast power will rule the world in the last days and Jerusalem will be his capital city.

Jesus says that the AOD will usher in the time of trouble and that will affect the whole world not just Jerusalem.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

I observe you jumped to your conclusion too fast, too soon. Mere presence in a ceremony does not necessarily mean observance of it. Did you forget Daniel's 3 friends in the fiery furnace (Dan 3)?

Daniel was REQUIRED by order of the king to "come before the image", Samie...

...This wasn't optional.

...& there was no such requirement to observe the Jewish Feast of the Dedication [ of the Temple ]

Daniel 3,2

Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

[Johnnboy]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...

This brings me to a question johnnyboy - why do SDA's teach that a prophetic year is 360 days...

...Then when it comes to the 2300 YEAR prophecy the calculations are made with a Gregorian year?

...I would be interested in your take on this.

Take pity on an ignorant Catholic and help me out.

Sorry to interfere, but when it comes to what Scriptures say and based on what the Master Teacher Himself delineated, the 2300 days, the 3-1/2 years, the 70 weeks, the 1290 and 1335 days in Daniel are all literal. The prophecies where these periods of time are linked are yet to be fulfilled in the future shortly before the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

These time periods are definitely to be fulfilled shortly before the second coming of Christ and these would be the main fulfillment, but there definitely have been previous fulfillments. Truth is always unfolding. The 2300 days has had two fulfillments; one in "prophetic time" the "going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem" in 457 B.C.E. to the Day of Atonement, Tuesday, October 22, 1844, and one in a literal 2300 days from the "going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem, on Friday, June 27, 1980 to Monday, the Day of Atonement, October 13, 1986. But the main fulfillment of this prophecy is yet future, and takes place relatively during the last 7 years, just before the seventh millennium begins.

Its very important to understand and study the previous fulfillments of these prophecies so that we would recognize as God unfolds these future fulfillments. If we reject the present fulfillments or the future fulfillments, we don't really believe the previous fulfillments. It only becomes a lifeless form.

"In every age there is a new development of truth, a message of God to the people of that generation. The old truths are all essential; new truth is not independent of the old, but an unfolding of it. It is only as the old truths are understood that we can comprehend the new. When Christ desired to open to His disciples the truth of His resurrection, He began "at Moses and all the prophets" and "expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." Luke 24:27. But it is the light which shines in the fresh unfolding of truth that glorifies the old. He who rejects or neglects the new does not really possess the old. For him it loses its vital power and becomes but a lifeless form." COL 127. 128

[Johnnboy]

Samie,

Scripture states,

"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past." Eccl. 3:15.

[Umfundize]

Satan always have a counterfeit for the real thing. Daniel 8:14 was fulfilled by Antiochus when he made an end to the daily sacrifice. But NOT REALLY! It would be only much later when Jesus REALLY made an end to the daily, when He ended the sacrificial system as the ANTITYPE.

There simply is no way we can jump from Dan 8:14, which prophesied about an EARTHLY event, right into the Most Holy Place in HEAVEN, and also throw in the date Oct 22,1844!

[Johnnboy]

...

There was an evening and morning sacrifice, that's TWO sacrifices per day....

...2300 "sacrifices" with 2 per day equates to 1150 literal DAYS .

...Which was fulfilled PRIOR to the Incarnation of Christ.

...Which is WHY Jesus OBSERVED the Feast of the Dedication.

SDA's maintain the Liturgical services of the Temple were poluted starting in 457 A.D.

...And remained poluted ( invalid ) through that time to October 22, 1844.

...Which, if true, would require that Christ did NOT fulfill Scripture!

The fact remains that St. Luke records that Christ observed the Feast of the Dedication....

...Which was UNIVERSALLY understood by the Jews.

...As a celebration of when the Temple again became Liturgically VALID.

...Subsequent to the actions of the Little Horn of Daniel.

I've already posted the calendation which shows Daniel's 2300 sacrifice prophecy....

...Was fulfilled TO THE DAY by the actions of and defeat of A.E.

The SDA's themselves appeal to a prophetic 360 day per year calendar when it suites them....

...But when the math does not work in their favor appeal to a Gregorian 365 day per year calendar.

...Would you care to discuss that here with me?

To understand what is meant by "evenings and mornings" mentioned in regard to the 2300-day prophecy the definition in Genesis 1 states that it is the 24 hour period of each day--"the evening and the morning was the first day, the second day" and so on. In Daniel 8:14 no mention is made of the evening and morning sacrifices.

I believe you have misunderstood that SDAs believe that the temple was invalid from 457 B.C.E. to 1844. After 457 Nehemiah, Ezra and other of the great prophets of God worked with the Hebrew people and restored temple services. The temple sacrifices did not become invalid until the true Lamb of God was sacrificed and the veil in the temple was torn from the top to the bottom at Passover in 31 C.E.

All of the events surrounding the death of the Messiah in 31 C.E. fit perfectly within the 2300 years, coming in the "midst of the week", according to Daniel's prophecy, the middle of the 70th week of years.

The early Adventists did use the Jewish year in calculating the 2300 days. Perhaps someone has explained the 2300 days--years to you in Gregorian years. But in "prophetic time" a day for a year--2300 years could be counted in Jewish years or Gregorian years. One would still reach the Day of Atonement of 1844, because one is only counting in years--not the number of days in a year. Do you understand?

[phkrause]

The early Adventists did use the Jewish year in calculating the 2300 days. Perhaps someone has explained the 2300 days--years to you in Gregorian years. But in "prophetic time" a day for a year--2300 years could be counted in Jewish years or Gregorian years. One would still reach the Day of Atonement of 1844, because one is only counting in years--not the number of days in a year. Do you understand?

Excellent point Johnnboy. My thoughts exactly. It doesn't matter how many days in a year! It could be 5, 50, 500, etc. Its years as you mention, not days.

[Johnnboy]

Gustave, you said,

"Pleading argument - look, the Bereans were noble because they applied "reasoning" to what they were told...

...Do you think the Bereans would have accepted the SDA 2300 year prophetic rubric?"

The text about the Bereans says they were noble because of "searching the Scriptures", to see whether those things were so. They were doing the "seeking" Christ talked about.

"Seek and ye shall find." The only true "reasoning" there is

would be full reliance on the Scriptures.

Gustave, you said,

"And the prophecy cited was that the temple would be minus it's Liturgical services...

...By default this requires that Jesus wasn't the Christ.

...According to the Scriptures."

Which verses are you referring to? There is nothing about the temple services being eliminated in the prophecy of the 2300 days.

Gustave, you said,

"She said the terminus of THAT prophecy was 22 October 1844....

...And at THAT time the Liturgical services of the Temple were restored.

...With Christ as literal High Priest performing the Liturgical rubrics.

...This defaults in Christ NOT having done to Him according to the Law & the Prophets."

I have mentioned in a post previously that Ellen White applies the verse, "The judgment was set and the books were opened," to October 22, 1844, but many more of her statements show this verse to be a future judgment to her time. So she definitely did not hold to the belief that October 22, 1844 was all there was to the judgment. In fact, she was saying just the opposite. You have missed that.

Gustave said,

"You've missed that not some but ALL Ellen's eggs were put in the 22 October 1844 basket....

...To her it was the literal fulfillment of prophetic time.

...If you don't believe this is how I'm saying it let me know - I will show you.

Hillel's calculated Liturgical Calendar was rejected by Incarnation of Elijah & George Storrs....

...And it was both of those character who convinced William Miller that the calculations MUST be.

...Figured from the original or ancient luni-solar calendar of the Karites.

By the way the same calendar used to identify 22 October 1844 as the D.O.A....

...100% precludes that Christ was killed on the 6th day of the Jewish week.

...Feel free to look at Hebcal, the Navy or ANY luni calendar for proof of that."

I don't know if you are aware that some of the information from the Navy for proof of the luni calendar gave the moon phases for the wrong month, with the difference being the Hebrew calendar currently used compared with the Hebrew calendar used during the time when Christ was on this earth.

So, of course, everything was off from how the sanctuary services prophesied of the Messiah's death and resurrection.

Gustave said,

"You're not understanding - according to the SDA prophetic schema there was NOTHING....

...That took place whereas a valid temple is concerned from 457 B.C. through to 1844.

...And that time hack INCLUDES Christ's Incarnation."

No, you are understanding this wrongly. As I mentioned there was a valid temple after the return of the Hebrews from Babylon, and that was after 457 B.C.E.

Gustave said,

"Realize that if the SDA's are correct Christ would have participated in blasphemous heresy...

...There can be NO accepted sacrifice before the Lord IF the Lord isn't there.

This is what I'm saying - Ellen does not agree with Moses....

...Moses would have had her executed in a New York second."

Both Moses and Ellen White had the same teacher. Her writings and the writings of Moses were in total agreement on every point, without a flaw, both believed in the seventh-day Sabbath, both believed in the literal fulfillment of the old sanctuary types, but there was another power that tried to change the "times and laws", as well as the seventh-day Sabbath to the first day of the week. I know that there were some that would like to have destroyed her. But while she lived, she was given insight regarding different persons who tried to infiltrate and thus they were unsuccessful and through her their motives were totally exposed. It was only after her death that they were successful in the infiltration of the church.