Guns

[olger]

We should ban automobiles because some individuals DUI and kill people, and sometimes themselves too.

[Guest]

Exactly!

[Guest]

And let me point out that it wasn't the "Gun" people who rushed to politicize this, it was the "Anti-Gun" people who rushed to politicize this. Within hours they were hollering "Ban the guns, Ban the guns".

Not the other way around, as some would suggest.

[Tom Wetmore]

Here is a simple explanation of the fallacy of the idea that it is not guns that kill people, but people that kill -

Myth: Guns don't kill people, people do.

Fact: Both guns and people kill; guns make it easier.

Summary

This sound bite misses the point; people are indeed ultimately responsible for pulling the trigger, but the national murder rate would surely fall if widespread gun availability didn't make it so incredibly easy to kill another human being.

Argument

This frequent pro-gun slogan is something that, upon reflection, seems entirely true. But it's not.

In actuality, the first half of this slogan is demonstrably false; guns do indeed kill people. But the point that the gun lobby is surely trying to make is that they do not kill people by themselves; they require a human to pull the trigger.

This argument is an attempt to divert attention away from the fact that guns make it much easier to kill people. Guns do this in two ways: enhanced ability and feasibility. We can see the enhanced ability from suicide statistics: the most successful suicide attempts are those that involve firearms. And this greater ability also makes murder feasible in a greater number of circumstances. To anyone entertaining murderous impulses, a gun makes it feasible to attack larger people, multiple people, people from a distance, from secrecy, etc. No one in their right mind would try to rob a bank with a knife. But a gun inspires confidence of success in a would-be bank robber, allowing a crime to occur when it wouldn't have otherwise.

Gun control advocates argue that a certain, extremely small percentage of the populace is actively contemplating murder at any given time, and would if they could. They argue the murder rate would drop if these would-be murderers did not possess the enhanced ability and feasibility provided by guns. The above pro-gun slogan responds to this argument illogically, by making an irrelevant point.

A wit once described this irrelevancy thus: "Fingers don't kill people, bullets do."

-- http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-gunskill.htm

[Tom Wetmore]

We should ban automobiles because some individuals DUI and kill people, and sometimes themselves too.

Here is the foolishness of that response. Automobiles were never designed to kill. Used as designed, they do not kill. In fact, the absolute best car designs put a premium on helping people avoid dying by being as safe as possible.

On the other hand, guns really do have one design purpose - to kill. And the best designed guns kill most effectively.

And the illogic of what you say is the DUI part. It's not the car that is the problem it is the alcohol in the person behind the wheel. An we in fact do aggressively regulate the element that enhances the possibility of death in that scenario - alcohol. That's really what DUI laws are all about.

[BobRyan]

We should ban automobiles because some individuals DUI and kill people, and sometimes themselves too.

One too many people had a gun today at the Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown.

Or else - one too few people had a gun today at the Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown.

I guess it depends on how they look at it.

One too many people had a knife in China today - when 22 elementary students were stabbed in yet another atrocity committed against children.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-school.html

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

I have always found it a wasted breath in talking about this issue with those in love with guns. Logic flies out the window at speed greater than bullets. it is really all about fear.

As I said to my co-worker today.......the bodies won't be cold before illogical words flow. Guess i can tell the future!!

[Narcah]

Regarding high capacity magazines: anyone who has done serious training knows, as I have practiced and drilled, that you can drop one magazine and be loaded and firing before the empty one hits the ground.

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: olger

We should ban automobiles because some individuals DUI and kill people, and sometimes themselves too.

Here is the foolishness of that response. Automobiles were never designed to kill. Used as designed, they do not kill. In fact, the absolute best car designs put a premium on helping people avoid dying by being as safe as possible.

On the other hand, guns really do have one design purpose - to kill. And the best designed guns kill most effectively.

And the illogic of what you say is the DUI part. It's not the car that is the problem it is the alcohol in the person behind the wheel. An we in fact do aggressively regulate the element that enhances the possibility of death in that scenario - alcohol. That's really what DUI laws are all about.

Excellent response.

When the news of this latest tragedy began to emerge I wondered if this would be the event that would lead Americans to think practically about how to prevent the scale and frequency of this kind of even. Other countries seem to understand that practical things can be done. Seems like for some it's guns before logic and sensibility.

[debbym]

This reminds me of that conversation in Genesis where everyone was pointing the finger and blaming, and the blame game went round and round. In recent conversations I hear people are saying it was God's fault entirely for creating Satan, then for placing the tree in the garden.

When we are are maintaining freedom of choice, we cannot avoid the reality of the risks. on one side we can control and control, down to having everyone's mental health evaluated and their body id chipped, and every gun id chipped, so we know where all people are and where all guns are. And we can create huge electronic panels where all is being observed, and control police sent out when any risky behavior happens. Don't we have home security devices where someone is watching over your home 24/7 at least electronically? We need this everywhere don't we? Didn't they already make the movie? Was it shades of Fahrenheit 451.

Certainly we feel societies around the world reeling as the Spirit of self control is being rejected and restraint of evil is being is lost. It is going to get worse. Are we ready to trust God and know he remains faithful and good, even as we see humanity fail.

this is not reaching national media news.... http://www.npr.org/2011/03/21/132678405/chicagos-schools-police-work-to-stem-violence

in 2011

"Last year, 70 children between the ages of 5 and 18 were murdered in Chicago. All but four were killed by gunshots — and at least half of the deaths were gang-related."

"Official crime statistics for last year show that in addition to the 66 school-age children killed by gunfire in Chicago, another 611 young people were shot and wounded."

deb

[phkrause]

GP: What I see is, yes the guns were legal, but not the shooter. And how did he have access to them? People don't know how to lock them up? or at least put them where others can't get to them? How about the little boy that got shot within the past month or so, I believe he died. Someone not know how to put the safety on?? I agree if someone wants to kill there probably is not much to stop them from getting a weapon of some kind. With this person if the weapons were locked up than he would've had to at least go out and buy one, and if he didn't have the money! Who knows what would've happen. No one knows for sure.

[phkrause]

Gov Huckabee make a very good comment yesterday, he said what do we expect when God is slowly being taken out of our lives. Also I was wondering how he could've got into the school if he was carrying rifles? Just heard that he actually forced is way into the school, nobody let him in as was first reported.

[Dr. Waite]

How many children or young adults who used guns to kill other people first participated in video games that desensitized them to shooting other people?

[Guest]

Excellent point Dr. Waite.

[phkrause]

How many children or young adults who used guns to kill other people first participated in video games that desensitized them to shooting other people?

Very true, and add TV to that list.

[Gordon1]

Gun confiscation has been on the global agenda for a long time.

Dunblane massacre in Scotland (U.K. 1996)

Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania (Australia 1996)

Numerous U.S. & Canadian shootings.

Often heaps of conflicting evidence with the official story, much like 9/11.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

How many children or young adults who used guns to kill other people first participated in video games that desensitized them to shooting other people?

Very true, and add TV to that list.

Amen

[bonnie]

Gun confiscation has been on the global agenda for a long time.

Dunblane massacre in Scotland (U.K. 1996)

Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania (Australia 1996)

Numerous U.S. & Canadian shootings.

Often heaps of conflicting evidence with the official story, much like 9/11.

We had laws against alcohol.That worked well.Prevented the law abiding from buying but those that wanted it could get it.

Drug laws make the buying and selling of drugs illegal.Working well?For me it does,I wouldn't have a clue where to purchase illegal drugs.Doesn't seem to stop the problem that is ever growing.

We have laws against murder. How many people are murdered every year?

Stealing is illegal. The law has an impact on the law abiding,doesn't do much for those that take what doesn't belong to them

[JoeMo]

So...

All of you gun control advocates are for taking guns away from everyone except police and military. I'm sure that terrorists and violent criminals would just cave in and surrender their weapons if we banned guns. Why do we need more gun laws? If we would just enforce the ones we have, we may be able to control weapons better than we do. Can you even make a gun law that would guarantee "crazies" wouldn't get guns? Are you willing to give up even more freedoms that we already have surrendered in the name of security. How do law abiding citizens defend themselves against violent criminals or a despotic government - stab them with spoons?

[Gordon1]

"We're gonna have to come together and take meaningful action

to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of politics."

-President Obama, press conference on the Connecticut school shooting.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

"We're gonna have to come together and take meaningful action

to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of politics."

I agree with this statement. Notice that the president said regardless of politics, not regardless of the freedoms we lose in the name of "security".

[Gordon1]

..An ominous portent of gun control legislation..

[Gordon1]

Notice that the president said regardless of politics, not regardless of the freedoms we lose in the name of "security".

One may choose to read between lines spoken by politicians.

[CoAspen]

So England is not a free country, according to those who believe you need guns to be free, their citizens live in dire fear of the criminals, they have running gun battles between violent criminals, terrorists and their despotic government, etc ,etc.....!!!!!!!!!

NOT!! NOT!!

Can we have some more silly arguments parroted from the mouths of the NRA?

Gun laws are being enforced! Their has always been a concerted effort by the NRA to weaken laws we have, such as background checks and registration, etc.

I can not understand why a people who continue to Use God or the Bible at every drop of a word or discussion be so voraciously opposed to the widespread use of GUNS, citing 'how can I defend myself with out one'!

A gun is designed for one purpose, to kill. At the least, as a threat to kill. Rather a paradox, christians wants everyone to love each other,unless they perceive a threat and then the solution is 'kill the sucker's'? So who is the christians real protector from the evil of the world? It ain't their God!!

So cardw may just be on to something!!!!!!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

A gun is designed for one purpose, to kill.

I agree CoAspen. You live in Colorado. I would think that you know a lot of people who use guns to kill animals that they eat. They're called "hunters".

Swords are also designed to kill. Do we ban those, too? How about bows and arrows?