Therefore, be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

[Robert]

Are we perfect, just as God is perfect? Of course not. As Paul mentions many times, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". The "glory of God" is His selfless, agape love.

Then is there growth in grace for the believer, or is there no change in his character?

"There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit (attitude) as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . ." [LHU 325]

I have no problem with this statement at all.

Growing away from selfishness is not the same as "not one trace of selfishness". Jesus, in our humanity, lived a life of complete & utter selflessness! That's perfection!

We, as believers, "will be growing away from selfishness". That's imperfection, yet it's the evidence of our faith in Christ. In other words "A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts."

Ellen states that "there should be less proud self-seeking, less self-importance." Again, keep in mind that in Christ's life He "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Therefore, even though the believer is moving in a new direction, he should always be aware of "the marked contrast between Christ and [himself]." In fact "he who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption."

[Gibs]

True we all have sinned. But what is being proposed is that we are not to continue to do so. We are to put on Jesus Christ and then all power is ours as He was we are too and enabled to walk as He walked and that is all that is expected of us.

* * *

I suggest get with Him and be truly happy in Jesus and He in you.

"He is your hope of Glory", "Christ in you is the victory that overcomes all"

May you be blessed falling on Him broken and surrendered, a malleable subject for Him to shape.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

But what is being proposed is that we are not to continue to do so.

Okay, then show me...stop sinning!

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

But what is being proposed is that we are not to continue to do so.

Okay, then show me...stop sinning!

Yes that is the program the Father and Son have laid. It would be much better to have Jesus come and dwell within one who wants to see it done and then experience it in themselves.

As God in you and all things are possible, even overcoming sin, Satan and the world.

Lu 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Just*]

Okay, then show me...stop sinning!

1 Thessalonians And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

5:23.24KJV

144000...

[Woody]

Gibs - Do you believe there is ANYthing that God can't do?

And if there is nothing God can't do - does that mean that everything He can do .... WE must do or we are destined to Hell?

[Gibs]

Well, Woody we are far from being God. But the fact is when God dwells within as your strength and stay that we may overcome sin, Satan and the world it is the expected outcome He has laid for our redemption that we fully overcome.

Yes I want to emphasize it that we must take hold of that lifeline He has extended to us to be overcomers. He extends Himself to dwell in us to empower us the same as He as one of us was empowered by the Father.

Satan knows and can see Christ within and at that moment knows he is a defeated foe as long as we don't put Christ out. Satan is powerless to goad one into sin that Christ is dwelling within.

The following scriptures are powerfull to all who will come,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Sorry Gibs -- I could never believe as you. I'll stick with the Gospel.

[Robert]

Yes that is the program the Father and Son have laid.

That doesn't mean anything....I said show me and stop sinning, now! No excuses.

BTW, even if you stopped sinning you have a list of transgressions against you. One sin will put you 6' feet under. So it doesn't matter....You can't gain salvation. Comprehend?

[Robert]

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus

Perfect, where? In Christ! Not in you, Gibs.

[Robert]

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary;

Did you get that? Ellen White is speaking of "true believers" - not apostate, but "true believers"!

but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they (the prayers, praise, confession of sin) are so defiled that unless purified by blood (Christ's righteousness), they can never be of value with God.

In other words the prayers, praise and confession of sin are defiled due to our corrupt humanity. What's so corrupt about our humanity?

David tell us that he was conceived in iniquity. That doesn't mean his mother was committing adultery; it means David was born bent-to-self.

So the prayers, praise, confession of sin of these believers are polluted with this bent-to-self.

They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor who is at God’s right hand presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God.

In other words our best is corrupted. Hence, the reason Ellen White stated the following: "The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager"

All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

Well, at least our good deeds are not polluted with this bent-to-self (iniquity), right? Read on:

O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat (MS 50, 1900).

In other words our bent-to-self must be removed for our obedience, our praise, our prayers and confessions to be acceptable.

We are acceptable only "in Christ"!

[Robert]

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

"Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies (in other words they are not totally controlled by the flesh like the unbeliever). They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.”

[Robert]

1] "lovers of self"

2] "their own interests"

3] "loved the things of the world"

4] "selfishness"

What do the sins above have in common?

They all stem from indwelling sin - iniquity!

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus

Perfect, where? In Christ! Not in you, Gibs.

Sorry there Robert and am I glad you are not my judge. You see that is not a lie that Paul stated, it is a fact that Christ in you and you can be victorious over all your sinnings. It is all up to the individual as to whether he wills to or not. Col 1:26-29 is upheld by all the apostles and Jesus Christ.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

That is the proof of ones love!

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

John also echos it and I paste it each time for a signature because it is so very true and so very important.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Gibs - Just because my choice is to sin - does not mean that I am not saved. I sin every day. Praise God - HE still forgives.

Not only does He forgive now - but He will continue to forgive EACH and EVERY day for the rest of my life.

[Gibs]

Woody, He will give you power to put away each and every one you may have, open up the door and let Him in the building He is working to construct in you and me and all. All He needs is our broken spirit and our will given to do none but His. He must be your buildings only master. He you know to whom you obey and do the will of is Master of you. Jesus is a jealous Master!

Really all must now realize that the time of forgiveness of sin soon is to come to an abdrupt end. None want to die with one unforgiven sin and that could happen at any moment as tomorrow may be any of us time to go, by accident, heart attack, choking or a stray bullet. An Amish girl near here was killed that way.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

it is a fact that Christ in you and you can be victorious over all your sinnings

Address yourself, Gibs. You live Christ's life and then I'll listen. Until then it's hypocritical.

You know I feel sorry for you...you have no peace...no assurance, just work, work, work. It's in vain....

[Robert]

Jesus is a jealous Master!

Jealousy is sin....God can't sin. It's a metaphor.

[Robert]

None want to die with one unforgiven sin ....

You aren't under law, Gibs. The law can't touch you, unless you are under its jurisdiction.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

Everything Imperfect Will Be Put Away.-- When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life.--Letter 416, 1907. {3SM 427.1}

Quote:

When Perfection of Character Is Reached.--Are we striving with all our God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ? Are we seeking for His fullness, ever reaching higher and higher, trying to attain to the perfection of His character? When God's servants reach this point, they will be sealed in their foreheads. The recording angel will declare, "It is done." They will be complete in Him whose they are by creation and by redemption.-- Manuscript 148, 1899. {3SM 427.2}

Quote:

I saw that none could share the "refreshing" unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should therefore be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord.--EW 71 (1851). {LDE 192.2}

Every wrong word and action? You've got to be kidding me!

Quote:

It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost.--5T 214 (1882). {LDE 192.3}

There is nothing that Satan fears so much as that the people of God shall clear the way by removing every hindrance, so that the Lord can pour out His Spirit upon a languishing church. . . . Every temptation, every opposing influence, whether open or secret, may be successfully resisted, "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts" (Zechariah 4:6).--1SM 124 (1887). {LDE 192.4}

[Robert]

Legalism! I am already perfect in Christ. I can't improve on what He accomplished 2000 years ago.

Heb 10:9 Then he (Jesus) said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will."... 10 And by that will, we have been (past tense) made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

You see in the future, when the Remnant is formed, the Sabbath will be a sign of justification by faith. Those who restore the gospel will rest in Christ's finished works.

[Woody]

Woody, He will give you power to put away each and every one you may have, open up the door and let Him in the building He is working to construct in you and me and all. All He needs is our broken spirit and our will given to do none but His. He must be your buildings only master. He you know to whom you obey and do the will of is Master of you. Jesus is a jealous Master!

Really all must now realize that the time of forgiveness of sin soon is to come to an abdrupt end. None want to die with one unforgiven sin and that could happen at any moment as tomorrow may be any of us time to go, by accident, heart attack, choking or a stray bullet. An Amish girl near here was killed that way.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

No thanks Gibs. I don't care for your religion. I prefer the God that I know.

[Gibs]

"He will put a Tiger in your tank", Woody that even Satan is no match for and will stay far away!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Legalism! I am already perfect in Christ. I can't improve on what He accomplished 2000 years ago.

Heb 10:9 Then he (Jesus) said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will."... 10 And by that will, we have been (past tense) made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

You see in the future, when the Remnant is formed, the Sabbath will be a sign of justification by faith. Those who restore the gospel will rest in Christ's finished works.

Oh, I see. So you don't believe in the inspiration of Ellen White's words then? Ellen White was legalist? Ok, then why did you quote her at all?

[Overaged]

"He will put a Tiger in your tank", Woody that even Satan is no match for and will stay far away!