Therefore, be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

[Lysimachus]

Woody, are you sure you're not looking at these things a little "superficially", and are not looking deeper? It's very to say, "Jesus did at all", and brush our hands and say, "that's it"--and act as though we have no role to play. I don't know about you, but I do not want to imitate the majority of Evangelical Christianity that repeats this same thing a gazillion times in their "Christian" Rock Concerts.

[Woody]

Jeus DID do it all Marcos. There is nothing I can do to earn salvation. Simply Nothing.

Jesus did all that was needed for me. What I might add is as filthy rags towards my salvation. The moment we think we have some part or something to add - we are in BIG trouble.

[Lysimachus]

Jeus DID do it all Marcos. There is nothing I can do to earn salvation. Simply Nothing.

Jesus did all that was needed for me. What I might add is as filthy rags towards my salvation. The moment we think we have some part or something to add - we are in BIG trouble.

He did it all, yes. But do you believe He can work IN and THROUGH you to overcome sin?

Do you believe in overcoming at all?

[JoeMo]

If "trying" is defined as relying on our own efforts to add to what Jesus has already completely done for us, I have to agree with Woody. We can't possibly improve on what Jesus has done through His perfect sacrifice.

My idea of "trying" is simply "going with the flow" of grace (i.e., cooperating with the Holy Spirit) by faith. It's not like it's that easy. Sometimes one has no idea where the Holy Spirit is going to take them. Take C/A for example. By stepping out and trying to present my true self here; I had no idea of the pile of familiar but unpleasant brown substance I would be stepping into. I have considered dropping out of here more than once. But this "small voice" in my head (maybe it's my imagination?) keeps telling me I need to stay here. Sometimes, it's confirmed by some positive feedback or affirmation I receive. So, I continue to "go with the flow".

"Trying" to earn points with Jesus is futile. Nothing I could ever do will make Him love me more than He already does. Nothing I could ever do will make Him love me less than He already does.

Already Perfect in God's Eyes,

JoeMo

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

I know you meant well with your statement of "going with the flow" but going with the Holy Spirit isn't the flow of this present or ever of this world.

I'm not wanting to be "picky" JM with you here but to bring out a point that you brought me to realize.

My explanation would be the great flow is down that w - i - d - e road of destruction and the flow of those with the Spirit of God is that strait gate and narrow way that few find and want to traverse.

Grace of God is what gives us a way of redemption from our past sin and committing it. He not only forgives of past sins but is able to keep you from falling into it.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

I would like people to get the picture of what God has made us very able to become with His indwelling. He wants us to be victorious and we certainly can.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

Already Perfect in God's Eyes

same here

[JoeMo]

Hi Gibs,

Thank you for your words. I understand what you are telling me. I am on a narrow path. Sometimes it feels like there is a cliff on either side. By God's grace, I follow God's word and the leading of the Spirit, as long as that leading agrees with God's word. I try not to allow myself myself to be swayed by my feelings or by men. That's why I push back on you a lot. I understand that my spirituality doesn't necessarily agree with the predominant teaching o f the church - I am more conservative in some points and more liberal on others. But I am compelled to follow the word of God rather than the tradition of man - be it you or the church. I believe you are doing the same.

Be blessed,

JoeMo.

[Robert]

But, I do not believe, whatsoever, that striving to be perfect is legalism. We do it because we love God and want to reflect His image as much as possible.

And the motive - to gain heaven? If so, EGW equates that with Heathenism. If you expect a reward, then that's sin. You are doing something to get something in return. That's iniquity.

[Robert]

Woody, are you sure you're not looking at these things a little "superficially", and are not looking deeper?

Leave him alone and do not place him under a yoke of bondage. Misery loves company and Woody is not interested in your assurance busting legalism....

[Robert]

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jude is writing about falling from grace, not falling into sin....

Actually, you who try to place believers under that yoke of bondage are the ones who are in danger from falling from grace. Why?

Gal 5: 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

[cheddar]

Does that mean that you think all men are saved; or that all men have the opportunity to be saved?

All men were saved at the cross. Paul says that just as Adam’s sin condemned all mankind to death so also the righteous life of Jesus Christ justified all mankind. This is much more than just a provision. The whole world has been saved and that salvation is full and complete.

Now we do have the opportunity to accept or reject this gift of salvation in this life and unfortunately the vast majority like Esau despise the gift and throw it away for the temporal pleasures of sin in this world.

Jesus often linked the new birth with death. In order to be born again the life of sin that we are born with needs to die so he can re-create a brand new life within us. This life is the one that Paul speaks of where Jesus justified all mankind. A life that commits no sin, a life where every thought, word and action throughout eternity commits no sin.

There is a cost and price to receive this life. The sinful and condemned life we inherited from Adam needs to be given up and put to death and that’s difficult.

[JoeMo]

Thanks, cheddar;

I believe pretty much the same way. Jesus offers us all unconditional salvation by grace through faith. The ticket to heaven is ours to accept or reject. Grace is not limited to eternal life; it also includes the power to overcome sin in our lives. That being said, our behavior may be independent of our salvation; however, it is our most effective witness to the world that we have been changed.

Perfect in His Eyes,

JoeMo

[Gibs]

Robert, you need to go back and not just pick out a verse from Paul in Gal 5: and take note of what he is talking about and I disagree with you of the intent of Jude 1:24, He is absolutely able to keep me from falling back into sin. He is my all powerful indwelling Saviour to keep me from it.

I repeat, He in one and none need fall back in sin and continue in it. He has delivered us from sinning if you will appropriate the way which is He within. It takes a death of the old stuborn self made to be humble and teachable.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

I repeat, He in one and none need fall back in sin and continue in it.

Gibs...please stop the endless rant. When you stop sinning then you can preach. Otherwise you are playing the hypocrite.

[Gibs]

None need to continue in sin and I think you know that. You haven't given over your will yet. We do what we want to the most! Who is our Master? Do I want to do His Will the most of all?

"There is hope for every one of us, but only in one way—by fastening ourselves to Christ and exerting every energy to attain to the perfection of His character. This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin, and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages sinners to believe that God will save them while they continue in sin and know it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions." . . . {CTr 81.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

None need to continue in sin .....

Are you as holy as God? No? then stop going on....

[JoeMo]

Hey Robert,

Don't be too hard on Gibs. He may believe very differently than you and I, but you have to say one thing about him - he's consistent, fierce, and sincere about what he believes. He will wear you out before you wear him out. Someone told me he was quite the senior citizen, albeit an active one. We won't change his position - God will have to do that.

Blessings,

JoeMo

[Gibs]

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

As He expects us to be, of course we know Peter was not meaning to equal God.

Ps 138:3 In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, and strengthenedst me with strength in my soul.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

He may believe very differently than you and I, but you have to say one thing about him - he's consistent, fierce, and sincere about what he believes.

Saul, turned Paul was consistent, fierce, and sincere about what he believed:

1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners —of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

[Robert]

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Context:

Set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.

It's still based on grace....Growing in grace is the aim....

[Gibs]

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ps 4:4 Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.

[Lysimachus]

Jesus and Paul didn't use the weak word "try" or "trying", they used "strive" or "striving".

"STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24)

"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind STRIVING together for the faith of the gospel;" (Philippians 1:27)

"Whereunto I also labour, STRIVING according to his WORKING, which worketh in me mightily." (Colossians 1:29)

"Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, STRIVING against sin." (Hebrews 12:4)

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12)

Do you guys really believe these texts? Do you Robert?

I'm not convinced you do! Prove to me that you believe these words!

Ask yourself, "had I been living in Jesus' and Paul's day, would I have labeled them legalists?"

It doesn't matter how perfect Christ's work was for us. If we do not strive with all the power that God has given us to overcome sin, WE. WILL. BE. LOST.

It will take ALL to enter glory. And if you think you're just going to SLIP into heaven without putting forth your OWN human effort COMBINED WITH THE DIVINE, then you will be disappointed.

A careful balance of all the texts showing that yes, it is Christ working in and through us, but it is COMBINED with our "OWN" striving, based on the texts above.

Ellen White is so clear that it is the Human Will COOPERATING with the Divine that enables us to overcome sin. And her words are simply reflecting what the Bible teaches above. And if this is not done....

...we cannot go to heaven. We will be lost.

It's that simple.

Let us not make mockery of the Grace of God.

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness [lawlessness], and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4)

[JoeMo]

There are several of "us" in C/A who believe that we are saved by the free gift of grace (unmerited favor) given to us by the Lord Jesus through faith. Every time the Father looks at "us", He sees the perfection of His Son. For "us", sanctification if the work of an instant - "we" are sanctified as soon as "we" put our faith in Jesus. "We" have been labelled as Liberals.

There are several of "them" in C/A who believe that salvation is only possible through works; that without good works, "they" cannot be saved. Of course, some of "them' believe "they" can only do the works with the help of Jesus' grace. "They" believe we will all be judged by "their" works; and that sanctification is the work of a lifetime. "They" are labelled as Conservative.

Part of the legacy of "us" who have benefitted from the salvation and power of God's unlimited supply of grace (unmerited favor) is to channel God's love and grace to others - including "them". How much do "they" deserve God's grace? As much as "us" - not at all! That's why grace is called a gift - it's not deserved or earned.

My friend Woody and I were messing around in the Shout Box the other day; and Stan interrupted us and asked "is there such a thing as a liberal legalist?" At first the question annoyed me; but I started thinking - what is a legalist? One definition I thought of is that a legalist is someone who is so convinced that their position is right (i.e., "the law"), that anyone who disagrees with them must be wrong; and possibly doomed. Are "we" sometimes as guilty of legalism as "they" are?

Just a thought ...

JoeMo

[Gibs]

Lys,

I think some might even say yes to this scripture,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

I may have posted this quote but don't remember, but is Apropos here now.

"Do not these who claim sanctification while violating the commands of God, become a false and fatal sign to the world? Do they not say to the sinner, "It shall be well with thee"? The Lord has defined sin as the transgression of his law, but they say they are saved in sin, and thus make Christ the minister of sin. These professed Christians are doing the very work that Satan did in Paradise, they are leading souls astray by precept and example. They say to the sinner, to the transgressor, It shall be well with thee; you will rise to a higher, holier state by violating the law of God. The lesson that is heard throughout the land is, "Disobey and live." But how different is this teaching from the lessons of Christ. He declared: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." {ST, April 28, 1890 par. 5}

Please, be careful what you teach and uphold, it is important!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.