Therefore, be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

[Robert]

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Are you as perfect as God is perfect? Well?

Please, read Ellen White?

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous.

Now how can you tell if you are self-righteous?

Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus.

That's the same thing John states: "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves". A self-righteous individual will not admit that he is not measuring up. He'll say it's possible to keep the law as Christ did, but no evidence is given that he is doing that....

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

So, if you dare to say that your are as perfect as God is perfect, well, you are deceived by your own self-righteousness. If you admit you aren't perfect, then you must admit you aren't keeping the law as Christ did.

[M. T. Cross]

If your Devil exists - as the father of evil and rebellion that you believe him to be - I would put good money on it that he giggles when he reads threads like this and many others. Cause ya'll get into soul sucking p*ssing matches that do nothing to actually further your and your fellow believers relationship with your God. The glory given is not to your God but to his advesary with those kind of actions. I would think Christ, wherever he may be, weeps and looks at those scars in his hands and wonders if his suffering was a waste.

[Robert]

I would think Christ, wherever he may be, weeps and looks at those scars in his hands and wonders if his suffering was a waste.

That's a human emotion. Christ never thought of Himself. That's agape....

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I would think Christ, wherever he may be, weeps and looks at those scars in his hands and wonders if his suffering was a waste.

That's a human emotion. Christ never thought of Himself. That's agape....

The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The Lord said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them" (Gen. 6:6-7).

I [the Lord] regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands (1 Sam. 15:11).

But thanks for proving my point :)

[Robert]

The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The Lord said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them" (Gen. 6:6-7).

Christ is not thinking of Himself - He was grieved that mankind has rejected Him and that He has to abandon them.

Keep in mind that God made mankind when He created Adam. So God didn't create our fallen,humanity. He is not responsible for sin.

Another thing...why take it out on the animals...birds and creeping things. What did they do wrong?

We need to think outside the box when reading Scripture. Don't you think?

[Overaged]

If your Devil exists - as the father of evil and rebellion that you believe him to be - I would put good money on it that he giggles when he reads threads like this and many others. Cause ya'll get into soul sucking p*ssing matches that do nothing to actually further your and your fellow believers relationship with your God. The glory given is not to your God but to his advesary with those kind of actions. I would think Christ, wherever he may be, weeps and looks at those scars in his hands and wonders if his suffering was a waste.

you make a good point.

[Robert]

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary;

Did you get that? Ellen White is speaking of "true believers" - not apostate, but "true believers"!

but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they (the prayers, praise, confession of sin) are so defiled that unless purified by blood (Christ's righteousness), they can never be of value with God.

In other words the prayers, praise and confession of sin are defiled due to our corrupt humanity. What's so corrupt about our humanity?

David tell us that he was conceived in iniquity. That doesn't mean his mother was committing adultery; it means David was born bent-to-self.

So the prayers, praise, confession of sin of these believers are polluted with this bent-to-self.

They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor who is at God’s right hand presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God.

In other words our best is corrupted. Hence, the reason Ellen White stated the following: "The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager"

All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

Well, at least our good deeds are not polluted with this bent-to-self (iniquity), right? Read on:

O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat (MS 50, 1900).

In other words our bent-to-self must be removed for our obedience, our praise, our prayers and confessions to be acceptable.

We are acceptable only "in Christ"!

You know, this got completely ignored by those who push perfection. Why?

[Gibs]

To level with her ideas of this in full, please read.

Besides the "talk" we are to "walk".

" We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. {FLB 23.4}

How this is accomplished, Christ has shown us. By what means did He overcome in the conflict with Satan? By the Word of God. Only by the Word could He resist temptation. "It is written," He said. And unto us are given "exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature. . . ." Every promise in God's Word is ours. . . . When assailed by temptation, look not to circumstances or to the weakness of self, but to the power of the Word. All its strength is yours. {FLB 23.5}

Grasp His promises as leaves from the tree of life: "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37. As you come to Him, believe that He accepts you, because He has promised. You can never perish while you do this--never. {FLB 23.6}

When we have put to death the old man "self" we live to please Him, He and His way is our goal to please and be a part of.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Y'all better be careful, or this thread may go the way of "Redeemed". Funny how nasty things can be said to each other on this thread; and it's OK. Nasty things on another thread - and that thread mysteriously disappears.

That being said - Gibs, Thanks for posting the definition of "perfect" as it appears in scripture: "completeness:--of full age, man, perfect". For instance its use in "Be ye perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect" doesn't mean as sinlessas the Father. We are only human - how can we be as perfect as God? It think it means means "complete; mature". But that's just my opinion.

When I think of perfection, I think of Jesus' parable about the growing seed found in Mark 4:26-29:

"He also said, “This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. 27 Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how. 28 All by itself the soil produces grain—first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. 29 As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come."

Wasn't the grain perfect where it was in all stages of it's growth? The man had nothing to do with it, neither did the grain. It was the soil (a metaphor for grace?) Isn't it the same with us? Aren't we perfect where we are, as long as we keep growing in the soil (grace)?

My ideal is to keep growing from glory to glory in my Christian walk. As long as I keep growing in the soil (grace), God will see me as perfect every step of the way. I am only lost if I remove myself from the soil (grace) and try to grow under my own power as a seed. Then, just like a seed taken away from the soil, I die.

Saved by the soil,

JoeMo

[Woody]

JoeMo - You are no longer a rookie. You have been thrown into the fire.

[Robert]

" We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . .

Yes, that's nice, but it won't save you. If you become perfect, fine, but the rest of us sinners will get to heaven through his imputed righteousness. That you can't add too....

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

" We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . .

Yes, that's nice, but it won't save you. If you become perfect, fine, but the rest of us sinners will get to heaven through his imputed righteousness. That you can't add too....

Exactly ...

[Gibs]

Gentlemen, The problem I see is that it is not imputed until we cooperate. You cannot be saved and continue in sin, none, no not one will be able to do that.

If you are His then He will dwell in you and it is imputed, He doesn't do it all without one doing his part, the gift of self to Him.

The time of this writing was 1891,

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality."--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

Will you let Satan have your soul? Shall we make of non effect the plain statement above and the clear Word in the Bible stating the same? That would be foolish indeed!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

You cannot be saved and continue in sin, none, no not one will be able to do that

I for one will ....

[cheddar]

Gentlemen, The problem I see is that it is not imputed until we cooperate. You cannot be saved and continue in sin, none, no not one will be able to do that.

Of course you don't because you don't believe in the good news of the gospel.

Please explain how your cooperation made any difference 2000 years ago. Jesus saved you without your cooperation and that salvation was full, complete and perfect and you had no part in it.

Your understanding of sin is so shallow and worldly. Truth is marching on and the legal minded refuse to keep in step. They drive 55mph down the highway when the flow of traffic is going 70mph and get rear-ended and cause an accident.

[Robert]

Gentlemen, The problem I see is that it is not imputed until we cooperate.

Okay...this has gone far enough. What you are teaching is heresy. It's heresy because it gets believers to look at their performance for their standing before God. Since all are failing to live Christ's life (including you Gibs) then the hope of salvation goes out the window. Then you know what happens? They abandon Christ! Why? Because of the heresy you preach!

Your teaching is almost identical to what the Jusaizers taught in Paul's days. Nothing much as changed.

[Robert]

To level with her ideas of this in full, please read.

In other words she must be wrong? She can't mean it, so let's take some of her other writings and make what she said here, void.

[Gibs]

Robert, I'm trying to get across to some of you here that you cannot continue in sin and expect to be saved.

He has made it so you, me or noone needs to continue in sin. We just need to take a hold of it. But instead of taking His power to do so you fight against it. Why? I do not know.

I am giving you the straight testimony of the Word of God and the testimonies given us in EGW. They solidly agree.

What is gone too far is the preaching and deceiving people they can be saved in their sins. That is not true by a long shot.

Satan's lie, man cannot keep God's Law. But man can, put on Jesus Christ and we have ALL POWER! Legalism, no not by a long shot. Fall on the Rock and be broken and go about it His way and you will find the way of peace in your hearts, but there is none the way you are preaching. You will always be prodded by His Spirit until you have grieved Him away.

Where there is no victory the battle is not won and there is not peace until that victory is accomplished!.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

I am giving you the straight testimony of the Word of God and the testimonies given us in EGW. They solidly agree.

It don't look straight to me. It looks crooked. It's a perversion of what is written.

The Devil is strong in his deceptions. We must be wary of such teachings.

[Woody]

Quote:

Robert, I'm trying to get across to some of you here that you cannot continue in sin and expect to be saved.

Yes. But what you are preaching is making void and of noneffect - the teachings of the SOP and scriptures.

[JoeMo]

cheddar,

Please don't take my question below as judgemental or accusing- it is simply asked out of curiosity.

In a post above, you said to Gibs: " Please explain how your cooperation made any difference 2000 years ago. Jesus saved you without your cooperation and that salvation was full, complete and perfect and you had no part in it." Does that mean that you think all men are saved; or that all men have the opportunity to be saved?

Like i said - I'm just curious.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Robert, as I understand it, claims to be an SDA, and he even quoted several EGW statements to try and "prove" his point.

Because some of her quotes agree with the Bible...I quote Ellen because I hope you will listen to her, but then you take her "other" statements and make what I quote void.

I'm a Christian....Non-denominational. I have a leaning towards Adventism, but I don't buy everything. Many Adventists are into a subtle form of legalism. I can't say anything about others Christians, although they do have some weird conspiracy theories going on.

Well for the record Robert, I am totally opposed to Legalism, and so was Ellen White.

But, I do not believe, whatsoever, that striving to be perfect is legalism. We do it because we love God and want to reflect His image as much as possible. We may stumble, and we may fall, but we are to never lose sight of Jesus, who is our "perfect" example.

When we start complaining that, "well, I can't be perfect, so I'm not going to even try", that usually tends to reveal a problem with the heart. Let us examine ourselves, "why are we making this statement?"

One not need get discouraged if they fall now and then. But at the same time, let us not diminish our goals and aims by constantly dwelling on, "I can't be perfect"---it tends to put us to sleep.

[Woody]

Quote:

When we start complaining that, "well, I can't be perfect, so I'm not going to even try",

If you are tryin' brother - you are on the wrong path.

All one can do is to turn their life over to Christ. And HE will do in us what HE pleases. It is not up to us to determine what that is. But instead - we must accept what HE does in us.

Us trying will not accomplish any good thing. Only what HE does in us matters.

I gave up that works path long ago. My focus now is to each day turn my life over to Him and when I do that - He does in me what He desires. And that I can praise God about even if it is not perfection.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

I am giving you the straight testimony of the Word of God and the testimonies given us in EGW. They solidly agree.

It don't look straight to me. It looks crooked. It's a perversion of what is written.

The Devil is strong in his deceptions. We must be wary of such teachings.

Woody, what do you exactly believe that the "straight testimony" is? What is the "living testimony"? The "cutting testimony"? The "pointed testimony"? The "sharp testimony"? All terms Sister White used.

Do you believe in applying the straight testimony as Sister White counsels us?

Do you not believe in a shaking that will create a final generation of people who have "no guile in their mouths" and are found to be "without fault" before the throne of God?

Sister White talks about how many will come up to the timing of the plagues, and then realize they needed to be hewed and squared for the building. That is a scary thought.

Do we have what it takes? Or are we too comfortable in our sins? Do we just not want to have to put forth the effort, and do we want to put ourselves at ease that, "oh, God understands"?

This attitude will not get us to heaven Woody.

"This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith." (Titus 1:13)

[Woody]

I don't know all the answers to your questions Marcos. But I do know that "I" don't have what it takes. But I KNOW of the One who does.