Therefore, be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

[Robert]

Quote:

"STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24)

Look, apparently you guys are seeking out some glory - that big payoff for the outstanding law keeping you've claimed to be doing. In other words you're coveting some sort of trophy or God saying "You the man"! I guess you & others need your egos stroked. That's just the way it is. Therefore you will always twist and distort the scripture to find something to build up your pride in your law performance.

[Robert]

"STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24)

Matt 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Now the context should reveal what Jesus had in mind:

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits (by what they say and do).....

Who are these wolves?

Phil 3:2 Watch out for those dogs (wolves)....(who place) confidence in the flesh....verse 6 As the the righteousness in the law, blameless.

20 Therefore by their (these wolves) fruits you will know them. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

What's the will of the Father? To accept Christ.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who work iniquity'

What is iniquity?

It's our bent-to-self - our love of self. It's the flesh (human nature) trying to look holy on the outside, but done for self-centered motives.

"While (the Pharisees) claimed to be very jealous for the honor of the law, self-glory was the real object which they sought; and Christ would make it manifest to them that the lover of self is a transgressor of the law."

So the church members in Matt chapter 7 are claiming to do good works and in return they want a reward - heaven & eternal life. They want a trophy.

That's not keeping the law...it's keeping sin - works of iniquity.

[Lysimachus]

Don't keep trying to dance between the rain-drops Robert, and make out the texts I gave to say something different based on an inferred extended context. The immediate context is plain.

If we are going to be saved, we must obey His commandments. Not because we are saved by doing them, for doing them does not save. But, the doing them reveals that we are saved in the heart. If you refuse to obey and perfect character, and strive with all your strength to overcome sin, then you are only revealing that faith has truly not transformed you.

It's that simple.

Adventism is growing leaps and bounds with the number of liberals, especially in the southern California/Loma Linda area. There has to be a major shaking and reformation if we are going to be true lights and beacons to the world, because no doubt we are letting the world come in more and more and more.

Some areas that must change:

1. Dress reform-- the women need to start dressing more modestly, take off their Jezebel makeup, and Jewelry.

2. Health reform -- they need to give up all their meat, and dairy. (a last day warning--I could produce a score of statements from Sister White on this topic)

3. Morals -- the young people need to quit the "dating game", and learn to build true Christian friendships with the opposite sex before considering moving on to a closer relationship.

4. Chat-Chat -- the young people need to quit the foolish "chat chat", "jesting", and "joking" (Eph 4:5)--and start talking about higher and more noble and elevating things.

5. Studying more--the young people need to become acquainted with true, orthodox, historic Biblical Adventism, and trained in how to effectively defend their doctrines like James White and Ellen White.

6. Quit the Sports Competition--all major competitive Sports games must quit. This time should be dedicated to other recreational activity. There's nothing wrong with a simple game of ball, but the amount of sports that has come into Adventism is a form of witchcraft, and it comes from the Pagans, the Greeks and the Romans. It has to quit.

Our teachers will be held accountable for not promoting these reforms. The reason why these reforms are not made is because the teachers themselves are NOT converted. They are worldly, and liberal.

[Robert]

If we are going to be saved, we must obey His commandments.

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is summed up in one commandment: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself."

How many commands are in "Love your neighbor as you love yourself"?

Does the above say, "Love your neighbor and love yourself"? If it did then there are two commands, but in reality there's only one command: "Love your neighbor AS you love yourself".

How does the dictionary define "as"?

"To the same degree, amount, or extent"

So, just as you naturally, spontaneously love yourself, love your neighbor to the same degree.

In fact "self-love' is not a command - it's a stated fact. You naturally love yourself.

If you place two toddlers in the floor and give one a toy and the other nothing, what happens?

Answer: Self-love

The one without the toy will try to take it from the one with the toy. Why? Self-love!

So essentially the love of self-love is sin. Ellen White states this many times, but you probably ignore her statements.

So the law commands us to take that self-love and bend it out towards our neighbors.

Does EGW agree?

First of all, let me give you Christ. How did He live in obedience to the law?

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Okay, that's how you are live. That's keeping the commandments! In other words, "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

Did you get that? If you love like Christ...if you are a commandment keeper, you will not live for yourself (self-love), but you will live for "another's wealth". That's loving your neighbor as you naturally love yourself.

Still don't believe me?

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Are you doing that? I'm not....I am falling short of God's love seen in the life of Christ.

That's why Ellen White says,

He who says, “'I am holy, I am sinless,' is self-deceived"

[Gibs]

But Robert,

You would make that "strait" and narrow gate and way so wide though that all the world in sin can come rolling Merrily through? That kind of gate is not hard to find and yes joyously pick up all your worldly baggage and get into Heaven?

When one has Christ's righteousness, he does Christ's will and loves to. He Loves what Christ loves and bears the fruit of one of Christ's. He finds none of Christ's requirments anything but his own desire to do.

Satan and his will come forth and perform great miracles and this will be going on when Christ comes again and His brightness destroys them

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9 (Even him,) whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

"Even Him" is added by the translators and is better understood if left out. "that Wicked" above is Satan, "anomos", means, alpha lawless one.

There is no love of self in any of Christ's, self was cruicified and dead never to be resurrected again, fallen on Him broken and crushed making Him the total Master of their lives.

The will of Our Father is to come to Christ, be broken and do His Will. Our wills being made by us voluntarily to be of His Will. Because we know He knows what is best for us better than we and does all for our good. Sometimes the lesson is hard it seems but we in the end are better for it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

When one has Christ's righteousness, he does Christ's will....

Great, "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

Have you given up all your possessions to the poor? No? If not, you still retain self-love and stand condemned under the law that you claim gives you life.

[Gibs]

Robert,

I am a poor man in worldly things and wealth, my old house here is in shambles, it is very old as I am. I live on SS only and it isn't much. I don't need much, I am happy. My only hurt now is my wife is in a bad way. He is soon to take her on and He knows best.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Robert,

I really liked your post #465399 (2 up from here). You must do some of your best thinking around 4AM, huh?

Marcos,

How well do you think your reformation points will sell - either in the church or in public evangelism? here's the scenario:

"Come join us! we wear nothing but unfashionable clothing; and do nothing to improve our appearance! We eat nothing but whole grain and veggies; and don't ever drink anyting but fruit juice and purified water! We seperate our single people by gender until they find who they want to marry, and our favorite topic of conversation is obeying the 10 Commandements! Plus, we watch each other like hawks to ensure that nobody does break them! Stick with us and we'll make sure you do keep them; or regret that you didn't! Won't that be fun?"

You start the movement, and let me know how it works out for you.

At our church, we accept people where they are. Some come in with drug or alcohol problems. Some come in with sexual issues; some come in with big-time health and dietary issues. Some wander in just because it's too hot or too cold outside. We don't have big evangelistic outreach. We don't have formal doctrinal studies for prospective or new members.

We do teach that God loves them just as they are; and His Son Jesus died in order to reconcile God to man. We teach that we are saved by grace through faith;and by beholding Jesus, they will be changed. We teach them to quit thinking about what huge sinners they are; and how God can't possibly love scum like them; and to start seeing themselves a children of God and heirs to heaven; and that they are His ambassadors whose job it is to bring the Kingdom of heaven to earth. We have sermons and small groups that tell people how important God thinks they are.

You know something? Somehow, the ones that stay (admittedly, not all of them do) eventually gain victory over their drug, alcohol, and/or nutrition problems. They clean up their language and start dressing appropriately. They fall in love with Jesus; and do what pleases Him out of love; not abject submission. It all just sort of "happens" - I call it the power of His grace and love.

The results are the same as you discuss above; but the burden it so much lighter and the yoke is so much easier! If your program doesn't work, give this one a shot. I'll bet you will be pleased with the results!

[Lysimachus]

That's just the way it is Joe!

I could produce dozens of EGW statements where if we are going to be good examples to the world, we need to reform in those areas.

You can argue all you want, but the more you keep arguing, the more you are convincing me that you do not really believe in Ellen White's writings or that she was a prophet of God.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I'm so sorry for your wife. I pray in the name of Jesus that God our loving Father may heal her or painlessly put her to sleep until His Coming; and that He who gives exceedingly abuundantly more than we could ever want or imagine will give you abundance and health for the things you need or desire.

You sound like you have been a good and faithful servant; and God will restore you - just like He did Job - in this age or the age to come.

Blessings,

JoeMo

[Robert]

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish." [EGW]

That's what the spirit of the law demands! Have your given up your love of self - you self-interests?

Turn to Matt 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him,

"Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

Did you get the question? This rich man wants to know what good thing he can do to gain heaven! In others words he wants something in return for his good behavior. He wants a reward.

How does Christ answer him?

17 .... No one is good but One, that is, God.

What does that mean? Well, Jesus was trying to tell this man that sinners, bent to self, can't produce genuine righteousness. Hence only God is righteous.

But, since this man was blinded by his own ego, Jesus answered his question. What was the question? "What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

Here's the answer:

"if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

18 He said to Him (Jesus), "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'

Notice that Christ replaced "you shall not covet" with "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"

In other words I've keeping the law...where have I failed?

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

What was that? IF you want to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect, give up all your possessions to the poor.

Does Ellen White agree?

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

That's what the law demands! If you aren't doing this then you are cursed with a curse. You must die!!!

[JoeMo]

I confess, Marcos, I do not put EGW's writings on the same plane as Scripture. You got me there. I liken her writings to a cornish game hen (I also confess that I am a carnivore) - I eat the meat and spit out the bones. I relish those things she says that can be supported by God's Word; and - following EGW's own advice - reject that which cannot be supported by scripture.

My "perfection" is not determined by who I am or what I do; it has already been determined solely by who Jesus is and what He has already done; and whether or not I believe that.

Perfect in God's eyes through Grace,

JoeMo

[Lysimachus]

And I never said anything about "unfashionable clothing".

I believe the clothing should be fashionable, but modest, and presentable. Not mini-skirts and immodest. There is a way to look fashionable and modest without being a gazing stock. Don't say silly things Joe.

[Lysimachus]

I confess, Marcos, I do not put EGW's writings on the same plane as Scripture. You got me there. I liken her writings to a cornish game hen (I also confess that I am a carnivore) - I eat the meat and spit out the bones. I relish those things she says that can be supported by God's Word; and - following EGW's own advice - reject that which cannot be supported by scripture.

My "perfection" is not determined by who I am or what I do; it has already been determined solely by who Jesus is and what He has already done; and whether or not I believe that.

Perfect in God's eyes through Grace,

JoeMo

Then we disagree here. I believe Ellen White's writings are fully inspired, and are given to the Church. There are things she says that the Bible is silent on regarding our time.

I should be able to quote any Ellen White statement to a professed Adventist, and they ought to be able to take it. And not complain. So as long as you are an Adventist, I will continue to quote Ellen White.

[Robert]

Robert,

I am a poor man in worldly things and wealth, my old house here is in shambles, it is very old as I am. I live on SS only and it isn't much.

Not that I have no sympathy, but Christ had nowhere to lay His head. There was never any self-interests in His life. He lived to serve and not to serve Himself.

Even though you are poor in this world, you are rich compared to Christ's self-denial. Hence you still need the righteousness of Christ because you are still bent to self.

[Robert]

I should be able to quote any Ellen White statement to a professed Adventist, and they ought to be able to take it. And not complain.

Ellen White:

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

You see in this world, if you are living selflessly, you will end up with nothing. If you deny yourself...if you have no self-interests, then you'll have nothing. Why? Because this world is built on Lucifer's love of self.

Now, notice what Ellen White said, "Those who follow him must share his poverty." Not should share, but must share is life of deprivation.

Now, did Ellen White fully deny herself or was she falling short of God's love?

“A few things about Ellen White’s new house may have puzzled some visitors who entertained a narrow image of her and regarded her as a severe, reserved person. An ornamental glass panel in the main front door, and an entire, tall window beside the stairway in the hall were made of numerous pieces of colored and patterned glass. Blues, reds, greens, yellows, purples—all were there to spice up the appearance of the entryway and the stairway. Around the fireplace (a feature that was a strong attraction to Ellen White) the Pratts had installed imported tiles depicting the legend of King Arthur. Ellen White would not have selected such decorations, but she was not so straitlaced as to have them removed.” [Ellen G. White: The Early Elmshaven Years Volume 5 1900-1905, P 37]

So Ellen White was a sinner herself, saved by grace.

[JoeMo]

Feel free to do so Marcos,

I will accept or reject them based on whether or not they can be supported by God's word. I love some of her stuff!

Just to make sure I understand correctly -

Do you put EGW's writings on the same plane as scripture?

[Woody]

Excellent comments regarding EGW Rob and JoeMo.

[Woody]

JoeMo - What you suggested about comparing EGW's writings to scripture and accepting that which agrees with scripture and tossing out the rest - it EXACTLY what she told us to do.

SO - if one wants to accept her writings - one should accept what she told us to do with her writings. I figure she would know best as our prophet.

[cheddar]

Some areas that must change:

1. Dress reform-- the women need to start dressing more modestly, take off their Jezebel makeup, and Jewelry.

2. Health reform -- they need to give up all their meat, and dairy. (a last day warning--I could produce a score of statements from Sister White on this topic)

3. Morals -- the young people need to quit the "dating game", and learn to build true Christian friendships with the opposite sex before considering moving on to a closer relationship.

4. Chat-Chat -- the young people need to quit the foolish "chat chat", "jesting", and "joking" (Eph 4:5)--and start talking about higher and more noble and elevating things.

5. Studying more--the young people need to become acquainted with true, orthodox, historic Biblical Adventism, and trained in how to effectively defend their doctrines like James White and Ellen White.

6. Quit the Sports Competition--all major competitive Sports games must quit. This time should be dedicated to other recreational activity. There's nothing wrong with a simple game of ball, but the amount of sports that has come into Adventism is a form of witchcraft, and it comes from the Pagans, the Greeks and the Romans. It has to quit.

Our teachers will be held accountable for not promoting these reforms. The reason why these reforms are not made is because the teachers themselves are NOT converted. They are worldly, and liberal.

Haha - LOL!!!!!

Should I sell my car and buy a horse and buggy too.

We can be like the amish and EGW and live back in the 1800's.

You sound like a self-supporter/offshoot.

Those people are so healthy they're anorexic.

[Woody]

Quote:

"The religion of Christ is cheering and elevating in its influence. It is above everything like foolish jesting and joking, vain and frivolous chit-chat." {RH, July 25, 1871 par. 3}

I have to wonder what EGW would think of texting.

[JoeMo]

What EGW would think of texting? I don't even like thinking about texting - especially when my daughters are texting back and forth with their boyfriends! OOOHH, the burden of being the father of teenage daughters! (Just kidding, my girls are awesome!)

[cheddar]

Quote:

"The religion of Christ is cheering and elevating in its influence. It is above everything like foolish jesting and joking, vain and frivolous chit-chat." {RH, July 25, 1871 par. 3}

I have to wonder what EGW would think of texting.

We need more foolish jesting and joking, vain and frivolous chit-chat. I say yes to all those activities.

Those are things that happen when you're not trying to earn your salvation.

When you boil it all down there is really only one sin and that is legalism. If you can stay away from that then you're good.

[Gibs]

cheddar, I don't think you quite mean exactly all the words you posted, but in a different respect.

Here is a thought on the subject by EGW,

"There is no time for engaging in trifling, for amusement, for the gratification of selfish propensities. It is time that you were occupied with serious thoughts. And you can not dwell upon the self-denying, self-sacrificing life of the world's Redeemer, and at the same time be joking and jesting, and whiling away your time by indulging in foolishness. And yet those who have professed to be followers of Christ have been guilty of these very things. Sins of no light character have been committed by those who have been in the truth for years, who have had great light, great privileges and responsibilities. "But turn ye, turn ye, why will ye die?" Make a complete surrender of yourselves to Him who has given Himself for you, that you should not perish but have everlasting life. {PH152 35.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.