Love vs. Law

[Robert]

Back to "love vs law".

Now you guys say that the Ten Commandments are written in our hearts. I disagree. What's written in our hearts is agape.

If the law was written in our hearts then all Christians, without a doubt, would know that Saturday is the Sabbath and hence all Christians would be resting the 7th day.

[Q.E.D.]

Back to "love vs law".

Now you guys say that the Ten Commandments are written in our hearts. I disagree. What's written in our hearts is agape.

If the law was written in our hearts then all Christians, without a doubt, would know that Saturday is the Sabbath and hence all Christians would be resting the 7th day.

If the law was written in our hearts then all Christians, without a doubt, would know the 10 Commandments by heart and hence all Christians would not commit idolotry or swear in vain, they would all keep the 7th day Sabbath of the Lord thy God, they would all honor their father and mother, they all would not hate and murder, they all would not fornicate, they all would not steal or lie or bear false witness or covet.

Sounds like all Christians have fallen short of the Glory of God. . .

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

They all began to cry, 'Agape! Agape! There is NO LAW!'

"The fanaticism was checked for a time; but several years later it broke out with greater violence and more terrible results. Said Luther, concerning the leaders in this movement: "To them the Holy Scriptures were but a dead letter, and they all began to cry, 'The Spirit! the Spirit!' But most assuredly I will not follow where their spirit leads them. May God of His mercy preserve me from a church in which there are none but saints. I desire to dwell with the humble, the feeble, the sick, who know and feel their sins, and who groan and cry continually to God from the bottom of their hearts to obtain His consolation and support."–Ibid., b. 10, ch. 10"(Great Controversy, 1911 edition, pages 190-191)

"165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them."(Ps 119:165)

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

Christianx follow Jesus Christ and when they find a point where they are not, they change and do His will. They are constantly looking to see if they are on every point and the desire is heavy in their hearts to do His Total Will.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Quote:

Sounds like all Christians have fallen short of the Glory of God. . .

Heb 10:16 This is the agreement which I will make with them after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws in their hearts, writing them in their minds....

What laws? Does He mean rules?

Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.

So our minds desired what the sinful nature desired before we accepted Christ. Our minds were in harmony with what we were by birth. By birth we are born bent-to-self, which means we are born selfish and everything we do (even the so called good things) are for our personal gain. So before Christ our minds are in harmony with what our nature desires, which is to be # 1.

You can outwardly keep the commandments and still be unconverted. How? Your nature prompts your mind to act good outwardly so that inwardly you can get something in return. Maybe a good name at work (he is a moral man) so you can get that promotion you've always coveted, etc.

Agape, however, is not self-seeking (1 Cor 13:5). Until that's written in the mind nothing is going to genuinely happen. So it's not the Ten Commandments that are written in your heart, it's agape.

[Robert]

Christians follow Jesus Christ and when they find a point where they are not, they change and do His will.

Good, now sell all you have (and you do have a computer) and give it to the poor.

Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

You know why you and I aren't doing these things? We still have a nature bent-to-self and it still has a hold on our minds. We are not totally free of the nature's influence therefore, as far as the law is concerned, we are still sinners and in death row.

So you, Gibs, are failing to follow Christ in His denial of self. You still love yourself....you aren't willing to follow Christ. Hence you are a sinner! Do you still claim to be under law? If so, you must die!!!! No heaven for you!

[Robert]

You know why you and I aren't doing these things? We still have a nature bent-to-self and it still has a hold on our minds. We are not totally free of the nature's influence therefore, as far as the law is concerned, we are still sinners and in death row.

But now the good new: Christ delivered from under the law. The Christian isn't under law! To be under law means death because none of us are measuring up to its broad demands. Only Christ has answered all the law. That means there is hope for us wretched sinners as we by faith remain with Christ.

[Robert]

We are not totally free of the nature's influence

Does Ellen White agree? Let me put it another way, was Ellen White free from all sin (her bent-to-self)?

"An ornamental glass panel in the main front door, and an entire, tall window beside the stairway in the hall were made of numerous pieces of colored and patterned glass. Blues, reds, greens, yellows, purples—all were there to spice up the appearance of the entryway and the stairway. Around the fireplace (a feature that was a strong attraction to Ellen White) the Pratts had installed imported tiles depicting the legend of King Arthur. Ellen White would not have selected such decorations, but she was not so straitlaced as to have them removed.” [Ellen G. White: The Early Elmshaven Years Volume 5 1900-1905, P 37]

Did Ellen White give all her possessions up and deny self? Doesn't look like it. Did she practice what she wrote below?

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

Apparently she succumbed to her bent-to-self. She wasn't sinless (as you, Gibs, require of us) because there was still self-seeking in her life.

Now, did she extend the same grace to fellow believers? Yes:

They profess (claim - like Gibs) to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another (and you can see that here at CA). Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

...while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.” [P&K 588]

[Robert]

They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.” [P&K 588]

"I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. I am the medium through which Heaven's blessings shall come to you. [DA 357]

So Gibs, you are wrong. We are accepted in Christ even though our character is faulty. Yes, if we see our sinfulness, we are growing in grace. As Ellen states, we are "growing away from selfishness", but as she also states, "there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained."

So you go ahead and try to place that yoke around the necks of those here on CA. I think they will reject it. At least I hope so.

In fact I wish you would rest in Christ. Have some assurance man! You are perfect in Him now. Give up on your works program.

Robert

[Robert]

The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. [DA 357]

What constitutes a "faulty character"?

1] lovers of self

2] own interests

3] loved the things of the world

4] their selfishness

Note - all these come from our "bent-to-self".

So with the man of Romans 7 we must say, "For in my inner being I delight in God’s law"

That's His love written in our hearts/minds.

23 but

Yeah, that pesky coordinating conjunction....

I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind (were agape is written) and making me a prisoner of the law of sin (our bent to self) at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So we need to repent of our sins....we need Christ's righteousness.

[Robert]

Is law against love, and love against law?

The law was given not to improve on things, but to turn sin into transgression. (see Gal chapter 3) The law was given to actually make matters worse so that the sinner had two choices:

1] Accept Christ's righteousness

2] or remain under law and die the 2nd death

The problem is that the self-righteous chose to remain under law. These have deceived themselves that they are righteous and therefore they remain under category # 2. Pride will not let them rest in category # 1.

So under law means death. But because of love, God's agape love, God "made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (of the law)--it is by grace you have been saved." Eph 2:5

So the law can't love you...it can only condemn you every time you fail (as we fail to meet it fully). So the law can't sympathize with you. However, Christ, who loves you more than Himself, can. He can present you perfect in Himself. He can help you live in harmony with the principles of the law, but that's because of agape. So the two are not the same. There are differences.

[Gibs]

He can present one faultless only if he is not continuing or falling continually in sin,

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Yes it is by wonderful grace He made a way that we too could be saved. He had to pass the same test as we, or He and we all would have been lost. In our case we must just for our self, none others are dependant on us. Our responsibility is for one, but do we want to die the eternal death.

Yes the Way that He made is He would come and dwell within ( costs only full surrender ) and then we are empowerd as He was and we then have no excuse to not walk as He did. No excuse is accepted.

He said it, "The overcomer will not be hurt of the second death". And yes the rest will!

An admonition from Sister White,

"Do not excuse yourself in any error. If you have one objectionable trait, which you find it difficult to subdue, do not talk of your weakness as something that others must bear with. Do not soothe your conscience with the thought that you cannot overcome the peculiarities that deform your character, nor listen to Satan's suggestion that they are not very grievous. There is no way by which you may be saved in sin. Every soul that gains eternal life must be like Christ, “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.” [Hebrews 7:26.] The followers of Christ must shine as lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation." {GW92 445.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

He can present one faultless only if he is not continuing or falling continually in sin

Bull! You are continuing in sin because you do not follow Christ in His denial of self. Compared to Christ you are a rich man. Sell your possessions and give them to the poor. Otherwise you are continuing in sin and according to your own gospel Christ cannot present you faultless!

[Gibs]

One must have the faith that He is able to keep you from falling, if one don't have it he must pray for it. Pray that you will have the faith to believe His promises. Yes He is able to do it in and for any who will.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

One must have the faith that He is able to keep you from falling.....

Back to the works trip....

[Robert]

One must have the faith that He is able to keep you from falling....

In other words, folks, if you are sinning you don't have faith. Funny, Gibs is still sinning....Apparently you don't have faith. Two can play your bad theology game....

[Gibs]

Am I still sining Robert? Do you know that for a fact? No you do not! I do have the faith Robert that He is able to keep me from falling. Is He a liar? He showed you it could be done with the Father in Him and He in you is the same power, where on earth is your problem?

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

We must hate sin, do you hate sin enough yet to drop it like a burning coal?

Continuing in sin proves one loves it and sin is of the Devil.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Then hate your love of self....Give all your possessions away....Awake to righteousness, and sin not!

[Gibs]

Do we know and love Him enough that we see His Law is of Love and is not against us.

Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If we truly have the Love of God in us that Law is part of us and natural for us to do. It is in our hearts and we love thy law o God.

Ps 119:163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.

We have then come to hate sin and the lie and now our true love is God and He in us is our strength and stay and impervious covering for what is fast coming upon the world and all Satan would throw at the Saints if God didn't cover them with His Wings.

The end is at hand, let us get ready as never before in our lives!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Do we know and love Him enough that we see His Law is of Love and is not against us.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law tells you that you are a sinner. Remember, Ellen White states that "the lover of self is a transgressor". To be under law is death. Christ came to deliver us from under the law.

[Gibs]

It has been brought out here many times now that if the law is in your heart, you love it and you are no longer under it, you keep it as it is now your love too. The law reflects Gods love.

I love His Law, it is in my heart and is my law too. So it falls naturlly now to obey. To disobey and you are back under it, it condemns your sin. It is needed to do that as to sin you had to cast it out of your heart!

It is summed up in Jesus's statement, "If you love me keep my commandments". Who will we prove we love the most? To him to whom we obey, sin unto death, eternal death, or God to eternal life.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Yes if one sins he is back under the law condemned and you cannot change that except by obedience and love enough to keep it in your heart as a part of you.

He who loves self cannot do that! That old man must be killed. Then that man no longer lives to please self but Jesus Christ and God the Father.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

To disobey and you are back under it, it condemns your sin.

I can't believe as 7th-day Adventist is stating this legalistic nonsense. What are you, Shepard's Rod - Firm Foundation?

Your above statement implies total ignorance! One sin places you under condemnation! The law doesn't handout credit. It doesn't forgive. Break one you've broken all of them.

What you are presenting is legalism. It's also called yo-yo salvation. As long as you are obeying you are in, but when you slip you are out.

Well, I've got bad news for you - you are never fully living what the law requires. Look at Christ's life - that's what the law requires. He lived to serve and never to serve Himself. Hence in this world He had nothing! When you live as He did you'll have nothing too. You'll live only for others and never for yourself.

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

[olger]

It sounds like you are a proponent of "social justice" Robert. ...

Sounds like you may be a very strong proponent.

rejoice always

G

[Robert]

Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind (there was unity on the gospel). No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had....(the result?) 34 There were no needy persons among them....

Matt 19:21 "If you want to be perfect (in agape), go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 9:57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go." 58 Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

Matt 6:19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth....24 No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."

Luke 12:33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Now Ellen White:

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

Selfishness girds many about as with iron bands. It is “my farm,” “my goods,” “my trade,” “my merchandise.” Even the claims of common humanity are disregarded by them. Men and women professing to be waiting and loving the appearing of their Lord are shut up to self. The noble, the godlike, they have parted with. The love of the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, have so fastened upon them that they are blinded. They are corrupted by the world and discern it not.

[Gibs]

I bet Robert hasn't sold all he has and is a homeless person living as an Apostle of God and has followers who support him. Can any do that in this day and age, especially if they are out preaching the TRUTH Gospel Message. Jesus did have many true followers then, but today, it would be but very, very few Robert and I believe you would be one against Him.

He hasn't changed, He would still tell you the same as 2,000 yrs ago, "If you love me keep my commandments". And Robert what would you say to Him? He or no one ever said they were nailed to the cross. You are to take them and write them in your heart though, to be a part of you from AGAPE LOVE for Him who gave all that was possible to redeem man. You talk of this love and it is the love that writes them on your heart. Then you tell us it is impossible to do them. That is a contradiction.

Robert, Bro., if you break them and continue to break them as you say one can't do them, I must tell you, that you are continually under the law. It can't be in the heart when we break them. Tell me how that could be.

We must walk with Him as Enoch did and now since He came and made it so He will come and dwell in us, that walk is very easy. We just keep Him in our mind and heart continually.

Pr 23:17 Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long. ( fear = reverance )

We then are dead to the old man continuing in sin as walking with Him you will not.

Ro 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.