I'm told by adventist 31 AD Friday Crucifixion. Is this correct?

[Green Cochoa]

There is one technical problem with your black and white mathematical reasoning regarding AD 30 and/or AD 31, Samie. It is this:

AD 30 and AD 31 overlap.

Which year we are looking at depends on whether we are calculating by the Roman calendar or the Jewish calendar or our modern calendar, etc.

This is the reason we sometimes see things like AD 30/31 as a written convention. But, when you get really close to figuring out exact dates like this, you better know which calendar you and your documentation are following, and be sure that they are the same calendar. Otherwise, you may be just creating problems where none exist.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Samie]

There is one technical problem with your black and white mathematical reasoning regarding AD 30 and/or AD 31, Samie. It is this:

AD 30 and AD 31 overlap.

Which year we are looking at depends on whether we are calculating by the Roman calendar or the Jewish calendar or our modern calendar, etc.

This is the reason we sometimes see things like AD 30/31 as a written convention. But, when you get really close to figuring out exact dates like this, you better know which calendar you and your documentation are following, and be sure that they are the same calendar. Otherwise, you may be just creating problems where none exist.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Do you know what you are talking about, Bro Green? Did you ever know about Julian dates? If you do, then you would not have even imagined of any overlap.

In Christ,

Samie

[Green Cochoa]

Samie,

Suppose you are right that the Julian year in which Christ was crucified was AD 30, and not AD 31. (At least, it seems to me this is what you've been trying to assert here.) In your supposedly-unrefuted post above, your error seems to occur in your reasoning of Test #2. It is the same error as I will now relate relative to the years 30 vs 31 A.D.

Julian calendar starts the year on January 1. But the Jewish calendar began ten days before Passover, in the spring. At the time of their New Year (Abib 1), the Jews would have considered themselves to have entered upon the next numbered year. This would have the effect of overlapping about nine months of AD 30 and AD 31 (depending on whose calendar is used). Jesus would have been, therefore, crucified in the Jewish year 31 AD, but in the Roman year 30 AD. If we count back three and a half years from this point, what do we get? We arrive at approximately September/October of 26/27 AD, with the latter being that of the Jewish reckoning.

(Don't forget that since the Jews' reckoning would have been more advanced than that of the Romans for nine months of the year, the 15th year of Tiberius would likely have equaled his 14th year by Roman reckoning, which yields the one-year discrepancy you would expect to find in the numbers above.)

To put it simply: There are so many variables and complexities with this mathematical conundrum that a simple answer is not possible. A detailed and thorough research is required to approach the correct answer without bias. For most of us, a prophecy in Daniel that saw its fulfillment in 1844 takes care of the hard math by solving it in reverse.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Gustave]

To make this simple for those who don't want to sift through his massive posts....

...While true that it is impossible for Christ to have died on a Gregorian Friday in 31 AD.

...And have that date coincide with a Julian / Gregorian Friday & Passover.

This will help those to want to understand know what he's talking about.

[Samie]

Samie,

Suppose you are right that the Julian year in which Christ was crucified was AD 30, and not AD 31. (At least, it seems to me this is what you've been trying to assert here.)

[Samie]

To make this simple for those who don't want to sift through his massive posts....

...While true that it is impossible for Christ to have died on a Gregorian Friday in 31 AD.

...And have that date coincide with a Julian / Gregorian Friday & Passover.

This will help those to want to understand know what he's talking about.

...

Bro Gustave,

It appears that you are a believer in lunar sabbaths, fixed sabbaths in the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of a lunar month. While your intentions are pure, I would have to tell you that you study further. That is, if you are a believer in fixed Sabbaths of a lunar month.

In my case, I had, and proven it to be unscriptural.

In Christ,

Samie

[Gustave]

Bro Gustave,

It appears that you are a believer in lunar sabbaths, fixed sabbaths in the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of a lunar month. While your intentions are pure, I would have to tell you that you study further. That is, if you are a believer in fixed Sabbaths of a lunar month.

In my case, I had, and proven it to be unscriptural.

In Christ,

Samie

If SDA's maintain ( in keeping with their prophetic origins & affirmation of Ellen White )...

...Christ absolutely had to die on the cross in 31 A.D.

...At the Jewish Passover AND on a Julian / Gregorian Friday.

This isn't possible.

"The synoptic witness gives us the following information about the timing of Jesus crucifixion...

Mark 15:42 "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath..."

Luke 23:54 "And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on".

Mark 15:42 "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath..."

John 19:14-16 "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour:...Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away."

John 19:31 "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day)"

So we have the following...

...Jesus died on the preparation day...it was Passover...the following day was the Sabbath.

Ellen White quite specifically agrees with this combination in her book The Great Controversy.

"The slaying of the Passover lamb was a shadow of the death of Christ. Says Paul: "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us." 1 Corinthians 5:7...

...These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On of the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain...the antitype of the wave sheaf our Lord was raised from the dead on the third day..." GC 399

Now if you put Ellen's specific nomination of the 14th Nisan for Jesus death...

...together with her quotes regarding His resting in Joseph's tomb on the Sabbath from the last blog...

"At last Jesus was at rest. The long day of shame and torture was ended. As the last rays of the setting sun ushered in the Sabbath, the Son of God lay in quietude in Joseph's tomb. His work completed, His hands folded in peace, He rested through the sacred hours of the Sabbath day." DA 769

"At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb." DA 770

Ellen White clearly says Jesus died on the 14th Nisan...

...and was therefore in Joseph's tomb on the Sabbath which is the 15th Nisan.

The scriptures support this timing and Ellen White supports this timing...

...and Ellen White clearly thought that Jesus died on a Friday and was in Joseph's tomb on a Saturday/Sabbath...

...which was also a Passover.

However, Ellen White also supported the 31 AD crucifixion date required for the termination of the 2300 days/years in 1844...

...but a weekly Saturday/Sabbath and Passover can not coincide using a Julian/Gregorian calendar in 31AD.

Ellen White taught the paradox."

[Gustave]

A discussion group friend of mine put the following ( and other materials together on this )...

...Vetter is attempting to "fix" the Adventist / Gregorian Sabbath paradox.

"William Miller (1782 – 1849) was an American Baptist preacher whose followers were called Millerites....

...he is credited with the beginning of the Advent movement of the 1830s and 1840s in North America...

...among his direct spiritual heirs are Seventh-day Adventists...

...who formed following 'the great disappointment' when Jesus did not return.

Prior to 1843/1844 William Miller held to a 33AD date for the crucifixion of Christ in accord with most of Christendom...

…but changed his position to the 31 AD date to fit his 2300 day/year prophetic schema...

...which he saw as having the same start date in 457 BC as the 'seventy-sevens' (Dan 9:24)...

...then by converting the days to years in Daniel 8:14 using the extra-biblical year for a day principle...

...found the 2300 days/years terminus in 1844 on 22 October, the Karaite date of the Day of Atonement that year.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar calendar make 31 AD a viable date?

Answer: On a luni-solar calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath day.

This is how it works...

...on a lunar calendar, weekly Sabbaths were calculated from the first appearance of the New Moon each month…

”In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev 23:7…

The first day of the month was New Moon day, the day following the sighting of the New Moon, it was a rest day…

…then six work days were counted until the first Sabbath of the month that was always on the eighth day of the lunar cycle...

...so the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also weekly Sabbath’s...

...then the New Moon was again sighted and the weekly cycle repeated.

So weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite luni-solar calendar were determined by the sighting of the New Moon each month…

…and not by the perpetual weekly cycle we use now.

For the Hebrews the lunar year began with the month Nisan…

…the 1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first sighting of the New Moon following the Barley Harvest…

...Barley naturally ripens according to the solar cycle, so this device kept the lunar year in sync with the solar year...

...with the occasional extra intercalated or leap month added to the end of the year.

The Passover lamb was killed on the 14th Nisan…

…and eaten that night, the night of the full moon (Passover Moon)…

…this was the beginning of the 15th Nisan which was a lunar weekly Sabbath every year.

So on the Karaite luni-solar calendar every Passover fell on a lunar weekly Sabbath...

...and William Miller/Samuel Snow relied on this Lunar calculation to place the crucifixion in 31 AD...

...to calculate 2300 days/years from 457 BC via 31 AD through to 1844...

...establishing 22 October 1844 as the Day of Atonement on which Miller believed Jesus would return.

...this is also the date that Seventh-day Adventists claim as their origin.

However, this created for Seventh-day Adventism a Sabbath paradox...

...when they later adopted a Saturday/Sabbath based on the Julian/Gregorian calendar...

...so their prophetic origin was determined by a lunar calendar that calculated weekly Sabbath from the New Moon each lunar cycle....

...but they observed a successive Saturday/Sabbath determined by the Roman Julian/Gregorian calendar...

...which can not be reconciled with the conditions for a 31 AD crucifixion."

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Bro Gustave,

It appears that you are a believer in lunar sabbaths, fixed sabbaths in the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of a lunar month. While your intentions are pure, I would have to tell you that you study further. That is, if you are a believer in fixed Sabbaths of a lunar month.

In my case, I had, and proven it to be unscriptural.

In Christ,

Samie

If SDA's maintain ( in keeping with their prophetic origins & affirmation of Ellen White )...

...Christ absolutely had to die on the cross in 31 A.D.

...At the Jewish Passover AND on a Julian / Gregorian Friday.

This isn't possible.

...

It is possible. But not on 27 April 31 AD, Friday, because Jesus would have eaten Passover Thursday night which is not a full moon night and would have violated the Law He said He came to fulfill.

Our Savior came to fulfill the Law which includes the law on Passover, and so He had to eat Passover on the night the moon was full. That full moon night was the first full moon after the spring equinox of 31 AD and it occurred on Tuesday night, 27 March 31 AD. He was crucified the following day, Wednesday March 28, 31 AD.

And after 3 days & 3 nights, the period from Crucifixion to Resurrection He Himself specified (Matt 12:40),

Wednesday daytime - Day 1; Wednesday nighttime - Night 1

Thursday daytime - Day 2; Thursday nighttime - Night 2

Friday daytime - Day 3; Friday nighttime - Night 3

He rose from the grave early morning of Saturday, the chief Sabbath in that paschal week. This the Greek Scriptures in Mark 16:9 delineates. Sadly, the Greek genitive "sabbatou" in that verse, a word that always referred to "sabbath" in the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint, was instead translated into "week" to perhaps give a semblance of Scriptural authority to Sunday-keeping by translators who were themselves Sunday-keepers.

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

He does not realise he is reading the word from a Christian document called a Gospel; or that the Gospel is one of several documents collected into one document known as ‘The New Testament’ (the ‘official’ document) representative of this new phenomenon of a collective people and peoples distinguished by their peculiar ‘sectarian’, called ‘Christian’, idiom / metaphor / dialect / vernacular—language.

One does not have to be 70 to know that the then infant New Testament Church could not have developed its own version of the Koine Greek. The Koine Greek was long in existence before Mark was born, the same Koine Greek of the Old Testament Greek Scriptures, with its own language structure and idioms that Mark merely utilized in writing the synoptic gospel that bears his name.

You can't drag the genitive "sabbatou" in Mark 16:9 into the IDIOM you want it to be, brother. It had always referred to "sabbath" NEVER to "week" in the Greek Old Testament, and NATURALLY, because in ALL its occurrences in the Septuagint it was derived from the Hebrew "shabbath" and NOT from the Hebrew "shabuah", a period of 7 days.

Your dragging of the genitive "sabbatou" into an IDIOM is your own concoction bereft of Scriptural basis both in the Old & New Testaments in an attempt to perhaps eclipse the truth of an early weekly Sabbath resurrection of our Lord in favor of your Sabbath afternoon thesis.

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

....

Packed showcase of your IGNORANCE, Samie.

I very much ENJOY to look at it.

You did the work, for me; thanks. I can now go cut my lawns.

That's a better option than trying hard to win a losing proposition.

Samie is Ignorant? Why? How?

Is it being ignorant to show your unscriptural stance of making IDIOM out of "sabbatou" just to promote your Sabbath afternoon thesis you inherited from Herbert W. Armstrong you now claim your own?

So you are not ignorant, brother? So why don't you even know the simple fact that Passover is a full moon feast?

Sorry, but you need this parting shot: If you want to be respected, be respectful.

In Christ,

Samie

[Gustave]

My dear brother Gustave, Please! In the Name Jesus, PLEASE!

HOW DO YOU GET

<< So we have the following...

...Jesus died on the preparation day...it was Passover...the following day was the Sabbath>>

or

<<"The synoptic witness gives us the following information about the timing of Jesus crucifixion...>>

IN OR FROM OR BY, THIS:

<<Mark 15:42 "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath..."

Luke 23:54 "And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on".

Mark 15:42 "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath...">>

AND THIS:

<<John 19:31 "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day)">>????????

Please, for heavens' sake, PLEASE!!!!!

How do you NOT get it?

Jesus died on the 6th day of the Jewish week prior to the setting of the sun...

...This specific day must coincide with a Julian / Gregorian Friday.

...And also coincide with the Jewish Passover in 31 A.D.

It's doesn't.

...However to establish it's prophetic origins SDAism must have it coincide.

...The ONLY way to make it work is lunar calendation.

[Samie]

You can NEVER read anywhere in Scriptures that Jesus died on the 6th day of the Jewish week. That is but reading meaning into the phrase "preparation day" as preparation day for the weekly sabbath. But that preparation day on which Christ was crucified was preparation day of passover (John 19:14).

The Full Moon evidence disproves both Friday crucifixion and lunar calendation.

[Samie]

And I thought you said Scriptures only. Why seek shelter in your scholars? Are their writings Scriptures for you, too?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

And I thought you said Scriptures only. Why seek shelter in your scholars? Are their writings Scriptures for you, too?

... another beautiful exemplar of your insight and wittiness ...

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

You can NEVER read anywhere in Scriptures that Jesus died on the 6th day of the Jewish week. That is but reading meaning into the phrase "preparation day" as preparation day for the weekly sabbath. But that preparation day on which Christ was crucified was preparation day of passover (John 19:14).

The Full Moon evidence disproves both Friday crucifixion and lunar calendation.

Samie o Samie, Why do you not close your book after you have settled the issue from your book?

Are you a Baal worshipper that you must call on the heavens to accept your offerings before you will have trust in them yourself?

[Gustave]

You can NEVER read anywhere in Scriptures that Jesus died on the 6th day of the Jewish week. That is but reading meaning into the phrase "preparation day" as preparation day for the weekly sabbath. But that preparation day on which Christ was crucified was preparation day of passover (John 19:14).

The Full Moon evidence disproves both Friday crucifixion and lunar calendation.

For A.D. 31 it does.....

...Not for 33 A.D.

[Gustave]

According to these Seventh-day Adventists 'The SDA Church'...

...Fully realized that either the 7th day Sabbath on Saturday is wrong.

...Or their prophetic origins involving the 2300 day prophecy is wrong.

...It's one or the other.

Samie is most likely distraught these facts are coming to light now....

...So he is attempting to justify the 2300 day prophecy by moving some times around.

...Because he knows a Friday Cross in 31 A.D. at the Jewish Passover is impossible.

[Samie]

According to these Seventh-day Adventists 'The SDA Church'...

...Fully realized that either the 7th day Sabbath on Saturday is wrong.

...Or their prophetic origins involving the 2300 day prophecy is wrong.

...It's one or the other.

Samie is most likely distraught these facts are coming to light now....

...So he is attempting to justify the 2300 day prophecy by moving some times around.

...Because he knows a Friday Cross in 31 A.D. at the Jewish Passover is impossible.

...

I have long ago shown, Bro Gustave, that Christ ate Passover on Tuesday night, a full moon, March 27, 31 AD, the first full moon after the vernal or spring equinox, and was crucified Wednesday March 28, 31 AD. 3 days and 3 nights later as our Savior Himself specified in Matt 12:40, He rose from the grave early morning Saturday, the chief Sabbath that paschal week. This the Greek Scriptures in Mark 16:9 delineates. Sadly, in order to perhaps give a semblance of Scriptural authority to Sunday-keeping, the genitive "sabbatou" in that verse was made to refer to "week" by translators who were themselves Sunday-keepers.

In Christ,

Samie

[Gibs]

I for the life of me I cannot see how anyone with even a fifth grade education reading the scriptures with a bit of understanding cannot see that Christ was crucified on a Friday before sundown.

It all shows me that many cannot read and comprehend!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

I have long ago shown, Bro Gustave, that Christ ate Passover on Tuesday night, a full moon, March 27, 31 AD, the first full moon after the vernal or spring equinox, and was crucified Wednesday March 28, 31 AD. 3 days and 3 nights later as our Savior Himself specified in Matt 12:40, He rose from the grave early morning Saturday, the chief Sabbath that paschal week. This the Greek Scriptures in Mark 16:9 delineates. Sadly, in order to perhaps give a semblance of Scriptural authority to Sunday-keeping, the genitive "sabbatou" in that verse was made to refer to "week" by translators who were themselves Sunday-keepers.

In Christ,

Samie

Here,

Matthew 27,52

Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate

What causes you to believe that "the chief" priests and Pharisees...

...Opted to blow off the Sabbath and go see Pilate instead of hanging around the Temple?

...The day before Friday would have been a "preparation day" for Passover.

The day before the Sabbath would be "the preparation day" for the Sabbath...

...Scripture is concrete that Jesus died on the 6th day of the Jewish week.

...And on the first day of the week following His Death He rose again from the dead.

You need to watch the SDA video about your 2300 year prophecy that I posted earlier....

...That will help you understand.

[ClubV12]

The scriptures are certainly clear on Jesus being crucified on Friday. Certainly sufficient evidence exists for those who choose to believe.

But not every occasion for doubt will be removed. The Father allows some room for the evil doer to present his false theories and to place hooks for some to hang their doubts on.

So it will always be, with every aspect of truth, with every prophecy. That the true condition of the heart may be revealed, not only to God, but to the heavenly host observing this great controversy. So that no question sufficient light was presented and rejected.

[phkrause]

The scriptures are certainly clear on Jesus being crucified on Friday. Certainly sufficient evidence exists for those who choose to believe.

But not every occasion for doubt will be removed. The Father allows some room for the evil doer to present his false theories and to place hooks for some to hang their doubts on.

So it will always be, with every aspect of truth, with every prophecy. That the true condition of the heart may be revealed, not only to God, but to the heavenly host observing this great controversy. So that no question sufficient light was presented and rejected.

Exactly Club

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

I have long ago shown, Bro Gustave, that Christ ate Passover on Tuesday night, a full moon, March 27, 31 AD, the first full moon after the vernal or spring equinox, and was crucified Wednesday March 28, 31 AD. 3 days and 3 nights later as our Savior Himself specified in Matt 12:40, He rose from the grave early morning Saturday, the chief Sabbath that paschal week. This the Greek Scriptures in Mark 16:9 delineates. Sadly, in order to perhaps give a semblance of Scriptural authority to Sunday-keeping, the genitive "sabbatou" in that verse was made to refer to "week" by translators who were themselves Sunday-keepers.

In Christ,

Samie

Here,

Matthew 27,52

Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate

What causes you to believe that "the chief" priests and Pharisees...

...Opted to blow off the Sabbath and go see Pilate instead of hanging around the Temple?

...The day before Friday would have been a "preparation day" for Passover.

The day before the Sabbath would be "the preparation day" for the Sabbath...

...Scripture is concrete that Jesus died on the 6th day of the Jewish week.

...And on the first day of the week following His Death He rose again from the dead.

You need to watch the SDA video about your 2300 year prophecy that I posted earlier....

...That will help you understand.

The Lord died on preparation day for the Passover Sabbath (John 19:14) of the Jews, NOT, on preparation day for the weekly Sabbath. That Passover Sabbath occurred on Thursday, March 29, 31 AD. Its preparation day was Wedneday, March 28, on which our Lord was crucified. Tuesday night was full moon, the night when the Savior ate Passover with His disciples. Biblically and astronomically correct.

The 2300 days, not years, will be fulfilled shortly before the 2nd Coming. This our Savior Himself delineated in Matt 24. I opt to believe the Savior, rather than in videos.

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

Matthew 27:62 to 28:1-5a annihilates Samie's Sabbath-morning resurrection phantasm.

According to you, brother. But you are not Scriptures.

Greek Scriptures in Mark 16:9 explicitly inform us Christ rose early morning of the chief Sabbath, Saturday, in perfect harmony with the 3 days & 3 nights specs of our Lord Himself (Matt 12:40) for the period from crucifixion to resurrection.

Christ ate Passover on the full moon night of Tuesday March 27, 31 AD; crucified on Wednesday March 28, Preparation Day of Passover (John 19:14) of the Jews. Thursday March 29 was Passover Sabbath of the Jews, a ceremonial Sabbath. After 3 days & 3 nights from Wednesday crucifixion,

Wednesday daytime - Day 1; Wedenesday nighttime - Night 1

Thursday daytime - Day 2; Thursday nighttime - Night 2

Friday daytime - Day 3; Friday nighttime - Night 3

He rose from the grave early morning Saturday, the chief Sabbath of at least 2 Sabbaths (there were actually 3) that Paschal week, March 31, 31 AD - as the Greek Scriptures in Mark 16:9 explicitly tell us. This verse demolishes the Saturday afternoon thesis of Gerhard and the Sunday resurrection lie long believed on by the world.

In Christ,

Samie