I'm told by adventist 31 AD Friday Crucifixion. Is this correct?

[John317]

Todd_vetter33, why don't you make your posts and charts copyable?

[John317]

Your chart and your argument has a major defect in it, because you assume that some of the Gospels are false, or contain false information in them. The writers of all the Gospels tell the truth and they contain no genuine errors. God didn't allow Satan to add his lies to the Gospels. God's word is the truth and can be depended upon.

[todd_vetter33]

Your chart and your argument has a major defect in it, because you assume that some of the Gospels are false, or contain false information in them. The writers of all the Gospels tell the truth and they contain no genuine errors. God didn't allow Satan to add his lies to the Gospels. God's word is the truth and can be depended upon.

I do not assume incorrectly. I state factually and then illustrate fact to back up the fact based statements. It is Christians who assume the 4 roman bible gospels are with out Error because they mis-define them as word of God.

If the writers of the 4 bible gospels tell the truth, then no lie will be found in their testimony. You will have no problem telling the truth concerning when the anointing in Bethany occured prior to the Passover where Jesus was Crucified. Please share! Please state fact based truth for this moment in the life of Jesus as 3 gospels chronicle this event.

You are correct that God's word is truth, and Can be depended upon! Only Christians mis-define word of God as Christian doctrine, because they have yet to know word of God from God.

[todd_vetter33]

Todd_vetter33, why don't you make your posts and charts copyable?

All of my charts are copyable. I share them in PDF format at this link.

The Death and Resurrection

If you would like the Power point version of the study found at the link, you are welcome to e-mail me at todd.vetter@gmail.com

I'll be happy to share the power point where you can add information and take away information you disagree with. Christians have been doing this with the historical record since they first called themselves Christians.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: John317

Your chart and your argument has a major defect in it, because you assume that some of the Gospels are false, or contain false information in them. The writers of all the Gospels tell the truth and they contain no genuine errors. God didn't allow Satan to add his lies to the Gospels. God's word is the truth and can be depended upon.

I do not assume incorrectly. I state factually and then illustrate fact to back up the fact based statements. It is Christians who assume the 4 roman bible gospels are with out Error because they mis-define them as word of God.

If the writers of the 4 bible gospels tell the truth, then no lie will be found in their testimony. You will have no problem telling the truth concerning when the anointing in Bethany occured prior to the Passover where Jesus was Crucified. Please share! Please state fact based truth for this moment in the life of Jesus as 3 gospels chronicle this event.

You are correct that God's word is truth, and Can be depended upon! Only Christians mis-define word of God as Christian doctrine, because they have yet to know word of God from God.

Todd, on who's authority do you appeal to in establishing what IS Sacred Scripture?

...Are you the Pope of your own religion or did you get these teachings you advocate from someone else?

...Also, how does Ellen G. White factor into your determinations?

[todd_vetter33]

Todd, on who's authority do you appeal to in establishing what IS Sacred Scripture?

...Are you the Pope of your own religion or did you get these teachings you advocate from someone else?

...Also, how does Ellen G. White factor into your determinations?

The Authority by which truth comes is from The source of truth. There is only one true religion from the source of truth, All other religions pick other sources. Does Ellen white speak perfect truth via the source of truth?

I know and illustrate Sacred Scipture to be true. Christians claim scripture is truth, and then illustrate historical record that is lacking truth and falsely claimed to be scripture. If truth is lacking, is it truely scripture?

I know Mark 8:31 to be True scripture in comparison to Matt 16:21. Truth will bare witness to truth Just as Mark 8:31 bares witness to the perfect truth found recorded in Matt 12:40. Does Mark 8:31 bare witness to the Christian tradition of a Friday Crucifixion?

Scripture is the authority by which scripture is determined to be truth! Those who keep the commandments of God will have the testimony of Jesus (Scripture) via the spirit of truth! Is this you?

[jamesonofthunder]

Todd, I hope you find help, and I am praying for you, but please stop spamming these forums. Enough with the five mile long charts. You are not on target and are not being led by the Spirit of Truth so knock it off. You are doing a gross disservice to our faith and you do not even know it!

[todd_vetter33]

Todd, I hope you find help, and I am praying for you, but please stop spamming these forums. Enough with the five mile long charts. You are not on target and are not being led by the Spirit of Truth so knock it off. You are doing a gross disservice to our faith and you do not even know it!

Instead of making false accusation aginst me, Share with the members of this thread where I am illustrating anything false other than the many various Christian perceptions which attempt to illustrate Scripture in fulfilment, but fall short.

I know the many various Christian perceptions displayed on the top half of this next very Large illustration does not speak in accordence with prophecy, and is therefore not truth, but represents the many Christian perceptions I speak of that make God look like a liar because they do not speak truth but are claimed to be truth by those who speak falsely!

The lower half of this chart illustrates truth in accordence with all true prophecy including the scriptures concerning time. Please share with me My error with more than empty accusations. It appears to me and the non traditionalist, I am right on point since truth lines up perfectly with truth to bare witness to truth. A disservice to one's faith is to allow them to remain in darkness when the light is on. Truth should be shared freely!

I'm accused of not being on TARGET. This is what the Adventist Church is selling the world. They claim a Friday Crucifixion in a year where the Passover occured on a Monday. They illustrate that truth does not bare witness to truth by claiming Error is truth. Last but not least they claim Scripture is perfect then illustrate that it is less than perfect unless you except their version of inclusive reconning which hold no more truth than the Christian of today or of the past who differs from them.

Blessings.

[todd_vetter33]

Mark 8:31 and Matthew 16:21 say EXACTLY the same thing with the use of different words-of-style. Style and Idiots are MORE the fibre of language – of ANY and ALL languages – than isolated words.

[Gustave]

Todd, do you also believe that St. Luke's Gospel has also been contaminated by the Catholic Church?

Luke 24

Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass. And, behold, two of them went THAT SAME DAY to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in THESE days?And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, TO DAY IS the THIRD DAY since these things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The Prophets were EXPLICIT that Christ would suffer, die and be raised on the THIRD day....

...There was NEVER any possibility that A) Christ would fail or Christ wouldn't rise on the 3rd day.

Do you believe that the Holy Catholic Church has also contaminated the Book of Luke?

Also, do you believe that there was ANY ( and I mean any ) possibility that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation?

Do you believe that IF Christ would have sinned that the wrath of the Father would have been turned against Christ?

It's important that you answer this question Todd.

[todd_vetter33]

Todd, do you also believe that St. Luke's Gospel has also been contaminated by the Catholic Church?

Luke 24

Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass. And, behold, two of them went THAT SAME DAY to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in THESE days?And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, TO DAY IS the THIRD DAY since these things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The Prophets were EXPLICIT that Christ would suffer, die and be raised on the THIRD day....

...There was NEVER any possibility that A) Christ would fail or Christ wouldn't rise on the 3rd day.

Do you believe that the Holy Catholic Church has also contaminated the Book of Luke?

Also, do you believe that there was ANY ( and I mean any ) possibility that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation?

Do you believe that IF Christ would have sinned that the wrath of the Father would have been turned against Christ?

It's important that you answer this question Todd.

The prophets were explicit that Jesus would rise after the third day. Just because rome (a non prophet organization) changed the words of the ancient record to support their Friday Crucifxion theory does not make the words of luke as they appear today to be truth.

See second chart of my last post concerning your first question concerning roman text corruption. Your answer is found in the testimony provide by the book of luke as well as G-12 text (both of which are Catholic products from early Christian history!)

[todd_vetter33]

Originally Posted By: todd_vetter33

The prophets were explicit that Jesus would rise after the third day. Just because rome (a non prophet organization) changed the words of the ancient record to support their Friday Crucifxion theory does not make the words of luke as they appear today to be truth.

See second chart of my last post concerning your question. Your answer is found in the testimony provide by the book of luke as well as G-12 text (both of which are Catholic products from early Christian history!)

Todd Vetter ASSUMES "the words of the ancient record were changed" and upon his incredibly stupid ASSUMPTION avows his even more incredibly stupid PRESUMPTION "rome (a non prophet organization)", "does not make the words of luke as they appear today to be truth".

Incredible! WHAT THE HELL FOR?!! Only to make Tod Vetter look like an angelic prophet of God while meantime he is nobody first seen of heard of on clubadventist to everybody's dismay.

Go scavenge for a following among the retarded in places of safety.

.

I don't assume Rome Changed words due to their bias. I state factually that they did and I offered evidence of this FACT from Multiple Roman Doctrine sources including the bible NT.

To know Rome was Changing the written record one simply needs to read the Didascalia Apostolorum (A product of a second century Catholic BISHOP) who built his perceptions on the Catholic Bible as it appeared in his day prior to the 3rd and 4th century councils. Rome of course simply calls this mans testimony Heresey to deny the confusion of their past, yet the Christian bishop who wrote the document, Loved God Just as much as any Christian existing today who does not keep the law of God but claims to love God.

Gehard, I'm here to share truth Where Christian tradtion and Christian doctrine have not shared truth. If you have no interest in what I am sharing, there are multiple threads present at this site for you to continue your discord built on a book!

Knowing that the G-12 text factually pre-dates the 4 roman gospels, below is more fact based evidence that Rome Attempted to change the record!

[todd_vetter33]

Also, do you believe that there was ANY ( and I mean any ) possibility that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation?

Do you believe that IF Christ would have sinned that the wrath of the Father would have been turned against Christ?

It's important that you answer this question Todd.

Christ would not have sinned after he was born again according to the spirit. The spirit of God directed his every movement and every word. That is the purpose of the New covenant which Jesus established; That perfected souls be numbered unto the church of the firstborn from the dead through spiritual re-birth. A perfected soul is only perfected when led by the source of truth! Other wise you have a Christian who claims to love God, but does not keep the Commandments of God and therefore does not have the testimony of Jesus via the spirit of truth.

The Wrath of the Father was apon Jesus from the first day of his physical birth according to the flesh. Jesus became Christ on the Day God declared "this day I have begotten you". How do you think Jesus was the firstborn from the dead?

If you know not how Jesus was firstborn from the dead, how can you follow his example of repentance and spiritual re-birth?

If for some reason you may still be confused as to whether or not Rome was Tampering with the Historical record, you simply have to know and believe that the spirit of God brings to rememberance ALL things Jesus said. It's a christian claim that the bible gospels were written by the inspiration of the spirit of God. If this Christian speculation/claim were truth, then the gospels as you see them today would speak word for word in perfect truth according to what Jesus spoke, when Gospels are cross compared for a single moment of time in Jesus ministry.

Why do the two bible gospel examples below (ROMAN DOCTRINE) not illustrate word for word truth when cross compared concerning the conversation between Jesus and Peter if led by the spirit that brings to rememberance ALL things Jesus said? You may speculate an answer if you like, but the scripture concerning the difference you see below will be in the illustration following (Also Roman Doctrine before Rome took it out)!

Christians are notorious for making their denomination their God, or making a book their God, and most do not even know they do this. If they would just seek to know the law of God and keep it, they would know God instead of read about the men and women of the past who know God!

Those who have a book and quote from it calling it truth from God, break the law of God and lack the testimony of Jesus.

Blessings!

[todd_vetter33]

Todd, do you also believe that St. Luke's Gospel has also been contaminated by the Catholic Church?

Luke 24

Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass. And, behold, two of them went THAT SAME DAY to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in THESE days?And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, TO DAY IS the THIRD DAY since these things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The Prophets were EXPLICIT that Christ would suffer, die and be raised on the THIRD day....

...There was NEVER any possibility that A) Christ would fail or Christ wouldn't rise on the 3rd day.

Do you believe that the Holy Catholic Church has also contaminated the Book of Luke?

I belive it and know it to be true that Rome made changes to the historical record,and that Jesus rose After the third day in accordence with Prophecy. This is obvious fact when the whole historical record available to man today is examined. In the next chart is Roman doctrine from the book of luke as well as roman doctrine from the G-12 text before Rome rejected it primarily due to the vegetarian message presented and made 4 bible gospels from it leaving out the Health message doctrine.

For anyone doubting that the G-12 text is ancient, an undisputable witness is presented below.

What the lord would like you the reader to determine, should you choose to seek the truth of the matter; why is G-12 the only document available today that can be used to place Jesus being chosen by the people on the tenth day and killed 4 days later while having a complete testimony to put Jesus in the TOMB for 3 days and 3 nights.

The time markers for the G-12 text are highlighted at the link. Follow the day transitions for any Wednesday Crucifixion time line chart and you will be able to use the truth of the actual time line to see the false testimony found in G-12 text that was added by Rome.

week prior to death time line G-12 Text

If the official Christian legend concerning the 4 bible gospels were true, the evence at the link would not exist, and it certainly would not present what is found at the next link I have to share!

You will find it interesting that the final Roman author who made changes to the the G-12 text, had to add a false day transition in Lection LXXI which can now be found broken up between two Bible gospels in the Roman Cannon that is used by Christians today.

Evidence that the bible gospels originated from G-12 text

Blessings!

[John317]

The Wrath of the Father was apon Jesus from the first day of his physical birth according to the flesh. Jesus became Christ on the Day God declared "this day I have begotten you".

This is the Father speaking about Christ at Jesus' baptism:

Matthew 3:17

and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Jesus was Christ from the first day of his birth onward:

Luke 2:10-11

And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy that will be for all the people. [11] For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."

[John317]

Todd_vetter33 said, "Jesus became Christ on the Day God declared 'this day I have begotten you'".

But Jesus was Christ from the first day of his birth onward:

Luke 2:10-11

And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy that will be for all the people. [11] For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."

Originally Posted By: Gerhard

Amen!

But Todd and it seems also Gustav reject Luke!

John's Gospel also testifies that Jesus was already the Christ at the time He began to call the disciples:

John 1:40-41

One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. [41] He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which means Christ).

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: John317

This is the Father speaking about Christ at Jesus' baptism:

Matthew 3:17

and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Jesus was Christ from the first day of his birth onward:

Luke 2:10-11

And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy that will be for all the people. [11] For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."

Amen!

But Todd and it seems also Gustav reject Luke!

Deal with it fellas.

1 John 3,8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested , that he might destroy the works of the devil

G5319

1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown , to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way

a) make actual and visible, realised

to make known by teaching

c) to become manifest, be made known

d) of a person

1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear

e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood

1) who and what one is

God the Son was ETERNALLY the Christ.

2 John 1,7

&

Romans 16,25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began , But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen .

Sorry SDA's, your Arian and semi Arian tricks are not going to work on me.

[12tribes]

Christ died and was resurrected in 31AD. I can put charts on as well just like Todd Vetter.

[John317]

Deal with it fellas.

1 John 3,8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested , that he might destroy the works of the devil

G5319

1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown , to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way

a) make actual and visible, realised

to make known by teaching

c) to become manifest, be made known

d) of a person

1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear

e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood

1) who and what one is

God the Son was ETERNALLY the Christ.

2 John 1,7

&

Romans 16,25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began , But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen .

Sorry SDA's, your Arian and semi Arian tricks are not going to work on me.

We SDAs aren't either Arian or semi-Arian. I agree with your post above, except for your inaccurate, crazy comment at the end. The Logos [Word] is the eternal, self-existent Son of God. He has always been what God has to say to the intelligent universe. The Logos has always been God's message and chief Messenger, which is what the Messiah is.

[John317]

Christ died and was resurrected in 31AD. I can put charts on as well just like Todd Vetter.

X70

[phkrause]

Christ died and was resurrected in 31AD. I can put charts on as well just like Todd Vetter.

[Gustave]

We SDAs aren't either Arian or semi-Arian. I agree with your post above, except for your inaccurate, crazy comment at the end. The Logos [Word] is the eternal, self-existent Son of God. He has always been what God has to say to the intelligent universe. The Logos has always been God's message and chief Messenger, which is what the Messiah is.

You agree then that Jesus was "eternally" the Christ that God ( Father, Son & Holy Spirit ) purposed before the world was created....

...And because God's ( what God alone is in charge of ) purposes NEVER fail then Christ could never fail.

1 Peter 1,10

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them DID SIGNIFY, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

G1213

1) to make manifest

2) to make known by relating, to declare

3) to give one to understand, to indicate, signify

THAT IS WHY Christ was so brutally clear when He encountered those who ever QUESTIONED He would raise!

Luke 24,21

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

And here,

Luke 24,42

And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL THINGS MUST BE FULFILLED, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

G1163

necessity established by the counsel and decree of God, especially by that purpose of his which relates to the salvation of men by the intervention of Christ and which is disclosed in the Old Testament prophecies

In case you MISSED IT at the end of that Scripture Christ said that IT WAS WRITTEN that Christ would suffer and rise from the dead....

...How could that have been fulfilled ( according to the Scriptures )if Christ sinned and lost His own salvation?

...To of course be followed by God annihilating Christ for good!

Like I said John, I wasn't kidding or bluffing when I said Ellen was Arian / semi-Arian...

...There is simply no way around it.

[John317]

... Christ said that IT WAS WRITTEN that Christ would suffer and rise from the dead....

...How could that have been fulfilled ( according to the Scriptures )if Christ sinned and lost His own salvation?

...To of course be followed by God annihilating Christ for good!

Like I said John, I wasn't kidding or bluffing when I said Ellen was Arian / semi-Arian...

...There is simply no way around it.

I'm certainly not Arian or semi-Arian, and yet I agree with Ellen White in regards to Christ's freedom to choose whether to obey or disobey God. There is no virtue in what Christ did if He had no choice and couldn't possibly have done differently than what He did. That would make Christ an automaton, a puppet. God takes no pleasure in forced obedience. That's Satan's thing, NOT our Creator's.

Just because someone believes Christ was fully human and could have decided not to go through with God's plan of salvation doesn't mean they don't believe in the Trinity (as the Bible teaches it, not Greek philosophy or the creeds).

What the Bible says is that if He would save humanity, Christ MUST suffer and die for our sins. It doesn't say that Christ has no choice whether to obey God. He had a choice just like we have choices.

There's no contradiction between having free will and fulfilling God's plan. God has a way of bringing about His plan without violating our freedom to choose Him.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

... Christ said that IT WAS WRITTEN that Christ would suffer and rise from the dead....

...How could that have been fulfilled ( according to the Scriptures )if Christ sinned and lost His own salvation?

...To of course be followed by God annihilating Christ for good!

Like I said John, I wasn't kidding or bluffing when I said Ellen was Arian / semi-Arian...

...There is simply no way around it.

I'm certainly not Arian or semi-Arian, and yet I agree with Ellen White in regards to Christ's freedom to choose whether to obey or disobey God. There is no virtue in what Christ did if He had no choice and couldn't possibly have done differently than what He did. That would make Christ an automaton, a puppet. God takes no pleasure in forced obedience. That's Satan's thing, NOT our Creator's.

Just because someone believes Christ was fully human and could have decided not to go through with God's plan of salvation doesn't mean they don't believe in the Trinity (as the Bible teaches it, not Greek philosophy or the creeds).

What the Bible says is that if He would save humanity, Christ MUST suffer and die for our sins. It doesn't say that Christ has no choice whether to obey God. He had a choice just like we have choices.

There's no contradiction between having free will and fulfilling God's plan. God has a way of bringing about His plan without violating our freedom to choose Him.

[Gustave]

Pkrause, John317, Gibs, Bobryan, or any SDA.

Do any of you believe then that God the Father & God the Holy Spirit.....

...."Choose" to not sin, or, are those two Person's locked-in and must remain "God"?

....Well, what is it?