How Do We Know?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Legalism is alive and well. Legalism makes good atheist. It gives you no hope - it's a yoke of bondage.

The statement above refers to those who are not disciples of Christ.

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."John 15:9 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Everyone claims to have the truth - how does any know which one is THE one?

Or a person could just listen to how Jesus says you can know.

"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority."John 7:17 NKJV

God blesses!

[BobRyan]

I would think you would recommend against critical reading of the Bible. It points to a pretty cruel and unreasonable Deity that just like to mess with people.....

On the contrary - critical thinking enables us to admit that "God so Loved the World that HE GAVE his only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him might not perish but have everlasting life" John 3:16 is a "good thing". And so also the 1John 2:2 statement that Christ is "the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole world" -- a "good thing".

At the same time critical thinking informs us that in all of time amoebas do not turn into horses - greek mythology, and diehard alchemy not withstanding.

in Christ,

Bob

[LifeHiscost]

God blesses!

[JoeMo]

Woody says: "Hang in there JoeMo - soon I predict that you will join Gerry and I in the Woody Institute of Liberalism."

JoeMo says "Awesome, Woody - that puts me in good company!

[JoeMo]

MT says: "Joe, I think really to much time is spent on wondering which side is right and not enough worshiping and celebrating your God...."

JoeMo says: "Thanks for catching that, MT! That is the conclusion I was hoping people would make when I posed the final question in my post - 'We should be able to "know" we are on the right side of an issue if our salvation and eternal life depends on it ...or does it?'"

MT says: "I say don't be so narrow minded that you shut out all the possibilities and miss wisdom and knowledge."

JoeMo says: "I gotta go with Woody on this one -

WOW !!! Great Words EmptyCross!

Keeping an open mind is one of the most important aspects of spirituality. If we close our minds to all but a narrow set of doctrines, how will we ever learn? You've heard me say before - I reserve the right to be wrong or to change my mind at any given moment!

[Gibs]

Well you see many of us you may call "narrow minded" as we see "His" way and ONLY His Way will suffice and is the TRUE WAY.

You should see that is why He made a way we could be saved from sin and not in sin.

Power is given just for that and is expected we take hold of it and overcome!

Because, - - 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

Power is given just for that and is expected we take hold of it and overcome!

Jesus just wants you to get to know Him Gibs.

The focus on overcoming will just bring misery and death.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The focus on overcoming will just bring misery and death.

God has given us enough assurances so we do not have to let that be our focus.

Doing so removes our focus from God. We either look up or down.

[Gibs]

Focus our Love to Him over and above all and you are an overcomer naturlly.

1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Woody and CoAspen,

very much!

[phkrause]

Well you see many of us you may call "narrow minded" as we see "His" way and ONLY His Way will suffice and is the TRUE WAY.

I don't always agree with Gibs on everything that I read from his posts. But this statement is a very interesting thought. As Jesus says in the word, "narrow is the way to heaven, and wide is the way to destruction," something to that effect. What would you say he means by that? An actual road? I don't think so! I would tend to believe he's talking about our minds not taking in to much info from outside the Bible, that we get so confused, that we don't know which way is up or which way is down. To much info can be as bad as not enough info. On this point I am in agreement with Gibs. Just my 2 cents worth, I guess with inflation, I could say my 5 cents worth. :)

[Gail]

I hear ya, pk- and if the road was narrow THEN, how much more so now?

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Power is given just for that and is expected we take hold of it and overcome!

Jesus just wants you to get to know Him Gibs.

The focus on overcoming will just bring misery and death.

It is not "either or" as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Quote:

It is not "either or" as it turns out.

in Christ,

IF you are focusing on overcoming - then you are not focusing on Him.

[BobRyan]

You must be kidding.

"I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9

"Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7.

"The one who says he knows Christ and yet does not keep His Commandments is a liar" 1John 2.

Looking into that perfect mirror of James 4 - what do we see?

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Transformation of Character Takes Place Here, October 20

Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee. Psalm 84:5. {RC 307.1}

We are none of us what we may be, what God would have us be, and what His Word requires us to be. And it is our unbelief that shuts us away from God; for we may at any time lift up our souls to Him, and find grace and strength. When Christ shall come, our vile bodies are to be changed, and made like His glorious body; but the vile character will not be made holy then. The transformation of character must take place before His coming. Our natures must be pure and holy; we must have the mind of Christ, that He may behold with pleasure His image reflected upon our souls. {RC 307.2}

Enoch was a marked character, and many look upon his life as something far above what the generality of mortals can ever reach. But Enoch’s life and character, which were so holy that he was translated to heaven without seeing death, represent the lives and characters of all who will be translated when Christ comes. His life was what the life of every individual may be if he will live near to God. We should remember that Enoch was surrounded by unholy influences. The society around him was so depraved that God brought a flood of waters on the world to destroy its inhabitants for their corruption. {RC 307.3}

Were Enoch upon the earth today, his heart would be in harmony with all of God’s requirements; he would walk with God, although surrounded by influences the most wicked and debasing. The palm tree well represents the life of a Christian. It stands upright amid the burning desert sands, and dies not; for it draws sustenance from springs beneath the surface. {RC 307.4}

Joseph preserved his integrity when surrounded by idolaters in Egypt, in the midst of sin and blasphemy and corrupting influences. When [he was] tempted to turn aside from the path of virtue, his answer was, “How shall I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?” Enoch, Joseph, and Daniel depended upon a strength that was infinite; and this is the only course of safety for Christians to pursue in our day. {RC 307.5}

The lives of these marked men were hid with Christ in God. They were loyal to God, pure amid depravity, devout and fervent when brought in contact with atheism and idolatry. Through divine grace they cultivated only such qualities as were favorable to the development of pure and holy characters. {RC 307.6}

Thus it may be with us. The spirit which Enoch, Joseph and Daniel possessed, we may have; we may draw from the same source of strength, possess the same power of self-control, and the same graces may shine out in our lives.—The Signs of the Times, November 11, 1886. {Reflecting Christ: RC 307.7}

[BobRyan]

1 John 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin not"

"I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9

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Let no Christian seek to excuse himself in sin on the ground that others who have claimed to follow Jesus have committed the same errors. Your sin is none the less heinous because others have been guilty; and your manifest duty is to confess your sin to Jesus Christ, your intercessor. Take the weight of your woe to no human being. You have one mediator, Jesus Christ the righteous. In contrition of soul go to him and tell all your sins. The promise is sure, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." John says: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." "That ye sin not,"--here is where you bring yourself into condemnation when you continue to sin. But in the strength of Christ cease to sin. Every provision has been made that grace should abide with you, and that sin may appear to you the hateful thing it is. But if any man sin, he is not to give himself up to despair, and talk like a man who is lost to Christ. "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." {RH, March 21, 1912 par. 1}

Signs of Times July 20

Let us arise in faith, and press closer to Jesus. Let us rejoice in his love. We may obtain the most precious victories. There is help for us in God. Let us grasp the promises, and look to Calvary. Jesus died to save us from sin; then let us cease to sin, and open the heart wide, that he may come in and abide with us. {ST, July 20, 1888 par. 5}

======================

It is "both AND".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

"8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,

14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3

Phil 2 - "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"

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Says the prophet: “Who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? ... He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.” Malachi 3:2, 3. Those living on earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease are to stand in the sight of God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling.

Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of putting away sin among God’s people on earth. This work is presented in the message of Revelation 14. When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive will be “a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing.” Ephesians 5:27. {HF 263.2} {GC 425.1} {GC88 425.1} {Mar 254.3}

An upright character is of greater worth than the gold of Ophir. Without it none can rise to an honorable eminence. But character is not inherited. It cannot be bought. Moral excellence and fine mental qualities are not the result of accident. The most precious gifts are of no value unless they are improved. The formation of a noble character is the work of a lifetime, and must be the result of diligent and persevering effort. God gives opportunities; success depends upon the use made of them.—Patriarchs and Prophets, 222, 223. {CE 226.2}

[Gibs]

Excellent testimony BobRyan, I Pray All See It!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

I didn't see any testimony. I just saw quotes which I skipped. I am pretty set in my ways and no amount of out of context quotes will change that .

[BobRyan]

I didn't see any testimony. I just saw quotes which I skipped. I am pretty set in my ways...

now see? We can all do that if we wish whenever we see the Bible or Ellen White making a point that does not please us!!

It really is not that hard to do as it turns out.

Which just goes to prove that not everything is difficult. Some options are really really easy.

And I am pretty sure everyone can see this point clearly.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

You seem to have about as much confidence in your view as I do mine.

[JoeMo]

pk,

I don't see where it's a matter of "taking in too much info from outside the Bible, that we get so confused, that we don't know which way is up or which way is down". I see ( as I'm sure you have) people strictly use just the Bible and SoP quotes to "prove" that, unless you are focusing on keeping the law (virtually) perfectly, that you're gonna burn. I see other people strictly use the exact same sources to "prove" that the law is no longer in effect; that it's all about faith and grace

I admit that I tend towards the latter group, because I think the NT covenant as described in Hebrews, Galatians, and Romans clearly states that the power to overcome is the RESULT of salvation by grace; not the PREREQUISITE. In Galatians, it clearly states that if you are trying to be justified by the law, you are alienated from Christ and cut off from grace (see Galatians 5:2-4). Romans clearly states that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; and that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags; and that no one is righteous.

On the other hand, the Bible also says "if you love Me, keep My commandments"; and "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 9:6-10)

That's all Bible, brother - no extra biblical stuff needed here; not even EGW. Is it contradiction? I think not. Something else is going on. The "narrow way" has to take both positions into account, doesn't it?

[JoeMo]

Bob and Gibs,

I gotta go with Woody on this. IMO, we need to talk this kind of stuff out using context and logic rather than just spewing quotes with little to no commentary. Like I tried to illustrate in my previous post, we can use scripture to "prove" either position. I'm older than Woody - probably have more miles, too - but he has had a very positive influence on bringing me back into the SDA fold because of his (IMO) balanced view of things. I don't dismiss the law; I just put my salvation in Christ rather than the Law. God cares much more about my identity as His child than about my performance as His servant. If people want to be judged by their performance, God will do so out of respect for your free will; but be careful what you ask for. I feel much more secure in relying on Christ's performance for my salvation rather than my own. He will empower me to obey with His grace, rather than give me His grace on the condition of obedience.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

If we close our minds to all but a narrow set of doctrines, how will we ever learn?

However we do not need to let what is true leak away to make that which is newly discovered true. If the past is true from the Word, what is newly discovered must be consistent with the

truth from the past.

God blesses!