How Do We Know?

[Robert]

Therefore, in the context of John 3:16, the title "power of the gospel" should always be understood as the power of God saving us from our sinful lives to live eternally with Him after accepting Jesus through our faith and belief in Him.

Are you as perfect, as God is perfect? No? Then no heaven for you!

Next...

[phkrause]

Great discussion, folks! I may be a biased judge, but I think Robert is winning the debate. He gets it. God indeed judges our hearts, not our external behavior. (See 1 Sam.16:7, 1 Kings8:38-39, Luke 16:15, Acts 15:8, 2 Cor. 3:3). Robert had a good point about the thief on the cross. I will add Sampson to the list. All the debate about Paul in Corinthians, he still says: "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" In spite of their corruption and twisted deeds, Paul calls them saints!

God knows our hearts. He knows who loves Him and their fellow men. We are broken; and have beed since Adam and Eve fell. But God sees past that. He's our Father (dare I say Daddy?). I may not subscribe to OSAS; because some maeyend up wanting a "divorce" from God (don't ask me why). But I believe that If we want to be in heaven with Him; and believe He is who He says He is, we will be with Him.

He is so good!

"Oh! How I love Him so! Oh how we love Him! How we love Him so!"

I do agree that God judges our hearts, but disagree that Robert is winning any debate. Do you remember the parable that Jesus told about the guy who owned much to the King, and when he came before the King and pleaded his case and the King forgave him. Was it required that he go out and forgive those that owned him? No, but out of love of what was just done to him should've forgiven the person that owned him much. I look at this parable as the same thing as when Jesus came and died for our sins, which we owe him and he has forgiven us, are we now required to show him how much we love him for this act? NO, but out of love we should "do" "keep his commandments" (as he has ask) out of love not because if we "do" for the purpose of getting to heaven. Not sure I'm saying this the way I'd like it to come out, but hopefully you get the idea.

[Felix Florimon]

Originally Posted By: Felix Florimon

Therefore, in the context of John 3:16, the title "power of the gospel" should always be understood as the power of God saving us from our sinful lives to live eternally with Him after accepting Jesus through our faith and belief in Him.

Are you as perfect, as God is perfect? No? Then no heaven for you!

Next...

How do you explain Luke 19:10?

FF

[Samie]

How do I know it is the Comforter that tells me "it is by grace that you are saved"? How do you know it is the Comforter that tells you that "no one who defiles the law will be saved?" Why would He tell us two opposing messages?

[LifeHiscost]

Heb 10:9 Behold, I [Christ] have come to do your (God's) will." He takes away the first [covenant] in order to establish the second [covenant], 10 by which will (i.e., His doing & dying) we have been (past tense) made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's]there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's doing & dying] there resulted [past tense] justification of life to all men.

Accepted. All are given opportunity. Not all accept the gift. Would you see those who have been responsible for the death of millions of God fearing people innocent of purposeful antagonism against God, as at last given sanctuary in the Kingdom of Heaven?

"Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Philippians 2:8-11 NASB

"“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."John 3:16 NASB

underlined mine LHC

"He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."Revelation 20:8-10 NLT

BTW, that last text can be confusing. Those forever fires are the same as the fires that burned up Sodom and Gomorrah. They only burn as long as all is burned up that is intended to burn.

"But to you who fear My name

The Sun of Righteousness shall arise

With healing in His wings;

And you shall go out

And grow fat like stall-fed calves.

You shall trample the wicked,

For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet

On the day that I do this,”

Says the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:2-4 NKJV

God blesses!

[JoeMo]

Hey phk,

I think you, Robert, and I are saying the same thing. If I understand things correctly, we all agree that anything we do for God or our fellow man should be done out of love. We obey the law out of love and gratitude for what Christ has done for us. Obedience and good works out of any motivation besides love (i.e., to earn merit towards heaven) doesn't work. At the other end of the spectrum, falling short of God's standard (which is perfection) does not disqualify us from heaven. We can do nothing to make God love us any more or less than He already does. For the most part, whenever we act out of love of God and/or love of our fellow man,- even if we mess up every once and a while-we are showing our hearts true to God. I think that is one of the main thrusts of Robert's message. That's why I think he is winning the debate (that and the fact that he and I agree on a lot of things! )

BTW,true love of God and love of our fellow man will never conflict with one another.

[JoeMo]

Samie,

Thanks for your input; I appreciate your comment and understand (and mostly accept) your "3 dimensions" model. The statement I made was strictly to stimulate conversation. It seems to have worked.

[Robert]

This is the gospel that needs to be preached in all the world just before the Lord comes again.

Not the gospel....

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

It is blasphemy to infer we can be justified by the deeds of the law, period!

" Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].

Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?"James 2:22-25,24 NASB AMP brackets parenthesis their's LHC

Is that period above indicating an accusation that the apostle James was a blasphemer and God permitted his writings to remain with the rest of the Word, for the sake of what?

God blesses!

[BobRyan]

You can't do anything to justify yourself before God's law. You are either perfect in Christ by faith or you are not.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Samie

This is the gospel that needs to be preached in all the world just before the Lord comes again.

Not the gospel....

Here is Paul - describing the Gospel -

Romans 2

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

===========================

We can see the point clearly when we are willing to actually read complete sentences from Romans 2.

Notice that in Romans 2 Paul does NOT say "no one goes to heaven here - because I am not talking about the gospel -- I am just talking about the case of the lost - those without the Gospel.

In fact - let's notice just how far from that idea - is Paul's actual point in Romans 2.

Notice that in Romans 2 Paul shows salvation and the Gospel "in the text" with eternal life given to those who are saved under the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

How long will we have that fallback to catch us, none know, the time is coming though the door will be closed.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Very true - according to Rev 15:8 there comes a time when the ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary - ministering the benefits of the atoning sacrifice made on the cross and completing the full Gospel scope of atonement in heaven in terms of judgement - ends. It is then that the saints stand in the presence of a holy God without a mediator for sin.

No more atoning blood available for new sins committed at that time.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Felix Florimon

The Apostle Paul had a very sour experience with those who strongly felt that those who accepted our Lord Jesus Christ were living in sin if they were not willing to circumcise and to do a series of rituals written by Moses (see Acts 15).

No, you messed that one up...like the law in Galatians in 1888 GC. The law in Galatians was "especially the moral law". The law in Acts is the law of Moses - "the book of the law" - which includes the moral law.

Good try.

Indeed in Galatians 3 Paul speaks to the problem that the lost have when it comes to the Law of God - just as we see in Romans 2.

The Law is given to the lost as a schoolmaster - until they come to faith in Christ.

but when they come to faith in Christ - then the go to the place you do not like to speak of. The New Covenant - Gospel - place where the Law of God is written on the mind and on the heart.

Like Romans 2 and Matt 7 and Hebrews 8 and Romans 6 and 1Cor 6 and 1John 2 and 1Cor 7:19 and John 14:15 and John 15:12 and Rev 14:12 and Romans 8:5-8... tell us.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

No person is just before God by the law, period! You cannot stand just before God's law because you aren't living Christ's life

[BobRyan]

Bob,

"And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." (Rev. 15:8)

I don't see where it says here that "the role of Christ applying forgiveness for new sins to your account - ends". In fact, I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says those who truly repent are refused forgiveness. In context, it seems to me that this verse refers to the heavenly temple; and I'm not aware of humans entering that temple before the Second Coming anyways.

"God will judge the secrets of all mankind through the man Christ Jesus"

We have a high priest who applies the benefits of his blood to cleanse us of sin according to Hebrews 9.

He is in the heavenly sanctuary doing that work for us now.

This is a key element of the Gospel teaching on Atonement missed by many of our Calvinist friends. It means that the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary is just as necessary to the plan of salvation as was his death on the cross.

It means while in that role as mediator and high priest "if anyone a sins we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1 in reference to sin and forgiveness.

It means that when His role as mediator for sin and forgiveness ends in that sanctuary "Which Christ has entered - a sanctuary made without hands... in to heaven itself" - that the 7 lat plagues can now fall upon mankind for there is no longer a mediator between God and man. Just as we see in Rev 15 and Rev 16.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Concerning your repetitive quote from Romans 2:9 that "There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek", I could give many "proof texts" about the righteous suffering tribulation and distress as well (e.g., Dan.7:25)

[JoeMo]

Bob,

Who are the "wicked" who do not receive eternal life? Are they those who come to Jesus as they are; and cast their entire hope on Jesus' love, sacrifice, and grace as the basis for salvation; and partner with the Holy Spirit to work on sins with which they still struggle?

Are they those who obey the Law "almost perfectly", relying on Christ's sactifice to hopefully cover the few minor sins they occasionally commit as they work under their own power to overcome, fulfilling the contractual obligation between God and man to obey every precept of the law?

I will grant that those who know about Jesus; and willfully rebel against Him and His Kingship MAY be lost; but I'm not God - I can't judge or condemn any man. Given a choice between His wrath and His love, I'll pick His love every time. Given a choice for Him to show me the mercy that only Jesus deserves or the justice that Jesus has already suffered on my behalf, I'll take the mercy.

I'm God's child; I am an heir to the Kingdom of God - not some orphan servant with a choice of working my way into favor or receiving a beating because I don't work hard enough. Jesus' yoke is easy, and His burden light. He says He will give us rest. I'll take the "rest" - I'm tired of striving to be "good enough" and never being sure.

[Gibs]

Php 2:12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Php 2:14 ¶ Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Php 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

???

What's that in response to?

[Gibs]

To know where our strength comes from. I feel that is always important to keep in mind and heart and I was moved to post that.

The main verse to like for most is this one from the rest,

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The others gave a wider view. Note the verse I always post at the end of each post.

We need Him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The New Covenant - Gospel

Masterful presentation. The gospel for both those who will be saved in the city of Light and for those who will sadly, never experience eternal life in Christ. Thank you for your patience and insights, Bob.

I am confident that the "new covenant" you reference is only part of the everlasting gospel revealed in both the old testament and the new, being more fully discovered as one serves Jesus as a Friend, as well as the sacrificial Lamb Whose blood was shed for all equally.

The true joy of putting off the works of darkness for the garments of Jesus' righteousness is often misunderstood as a list of dos and donts by those not yet experiencing victories, and will many times not be fully understood until revealed by those who truly love as Jesus loved.

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."John 13:35 ASV

" Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—" Revelation 14:6 NKJV

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”Jeremiah 31:33,34 NKJV

“ FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE."Hebrews 8:10 NASB emphasis their's LHC

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Given a choice between His wrath and His love, I'll pick His love every time.

Sad to say, not all respond that way, even after being shown the Truth.

"For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God." Romans 1:20 NLT

"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."Philippians 2:9-11 NKJV

" And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them." Revelation 20:9 NLT

God blesses!

[12tribes]

I've been a member of CA for over 9 months now; and have been active in many discussions. The Theological Town Hall is generally where I hang out. Many discussions either start or evolve into "saved by grace" or "saved by works"; and others either start as or evolve into church unity discussions.

Many of you hang out in the same place - you know what I'm talking about. Many of you also know that I have a pretty liberal theology. Although I am a card-carrying Adventist, I am open to certain doctrine that is outside of the typical SDA purview.

I am also quite open-minded; and I must admit that several of the conservatives on this site pose persuasive evidence from scripture and the SoP to support the conservative viewpoint. being a strict legalist during a large portion of my Adventist experience, I understand how they think and why they think the way they do.

In the time I have been here, I have never seen anyone on one side of an issue "convert" anyone else.

My question is, how do we "know" if we are on the right side of an issue? I can say "I know because I know because I know"; or because "God showed me". - Or is it my imagination? We should be able to "know" we are on the right side of an issue if our salvation and eternal life depends on it ...or does it?

We must remember that no one has the truth only God. The Bible mentions three things as truth.

Psalms 119:142

(142) Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

John 14:6

(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:17

(17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Truth has to have all three elements

[Gibs]

12tribes,

This verse here should clear the air on the question you asked at the end,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Being right from Jesus I would say to me that is a promise.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

Matthew 5:17

(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The Law points to the character of Christ and since the Law is truth then any one or denomination that does not teach all God's Law does not teach all the truth and do not teach all that Christ is.