How Do We Know?

[BobRyan]

notice that in Romans 2 Paul does NOT say "no one goes to heaven here - because I am not talking about the gospel -- I am just talking about the case of the lost - those without the Gospel.

In fact - let's notice just how far from that idea - is Paul's actual point in Romans 2.

Notice here that Paul shows salvation and the Gospel "in the text" with eternal life given to those who are saved under the Gospel.

Romans 2

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

===========================

We can see the point clearly when we are willing to actually read complete sentences from Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

...all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

You can't sin under law. That's all Paul is saying. If you are under the law you must keep the law to stand just before it.

You realize of course that my argument that you have to read in complete sentences is going to be quickly accepted as a "given" by the objective unbiased readers.

This point is not too difficult to follow.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

You realize of course that my argument that you have to read in complete sentences is going to be quickly accepted as a "given" by the objective unbiased readers.

This point is not too difficult to follow.

Then you and "the unbiased readers" will be lost!

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated (i.e., cutoff) from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

[Gibs]

None are fallen from Grace of God who have the law in their hearts. By them the keeping of the law isn't the object to obtain salvation.

The law is merely kept by them from a faith that works by love. (paraphrase) If you love me you will keep my commandments. (it proves out!) From love we have no higher priority but to plese Him and that being our pleasure.

With these, they are not under the law, but the law is in them, it is part of us as with the God of it. It is a law of love from the God of love.

So then we know the gospel is of Love, from He who is Love, truth and justice.

We will be judged by that wonderful law of liberty, but the justification for the sins we have committed comes through Jesus Christ.

There is none here that I am aware of that are working to be justified by the law.

That is not our thrust, sanctification is the thrust and we grow each day in that or we are falling back. There is no standing still.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

There is none here that I am aware of that are working to be justified by the law.

That is not our thrust, sanctification is the thrust ....

But sanctification, as wonderful as it is, does not save. What Jesus did 2000 years ago in our corporate humanity is what saved us. That should be the emphasize.

"You will meet with those who will say, “You are too much excited over this matter (context: of justification by faith). You are too much in earnest. You should not be reaching for the righteousness of Christ, and making so much of that. You should preach the law.” As a people, we have preached the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboa that had neither dew nor rain. We must preach Christ in the law, and there will be sap and nourishment in the preaching that will be as food to the famishing flock of God. We must not trust in our own merits at all, but in the merits of Jesus of Nazareth. Our eyes must be anointed with eye-salve."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

There is none here that I am aware of that are working to be justified by the law.

That is not our thrust, sanctification is the thrust ....

But sanctification, as wonderful as it is, does not save. What Jesus did 2000 years ago in our corporate humanity is what saved us. That should be the emphasize.

We are not justified by sanctification, but no one will be saved without it. Saving faith is faith that works by love.

[Robert]

We are not justified by sanctification, but no one will be saved without it. Saving faith is faith that works by love.

Some will be saved without....Those who are under the age of accountability. But other than these, yes, I agree all will experience something.

Now, I asked this question before, did the thief on the cross (the one who accepted Christ) experience holy living (growth)?

I say yes, but do you know what fruit he experienced?

Here's the event:

Luke 23:42 Then he (the thief on the cross) said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. " 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise." (Yes, I moved the comma)

John 19:31 Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

So the thief was not dead when Christ died. The Romans broke his legs to keep him from running away. (Side point: The cruelty of the Romans is astounding. Truly they were barbaric.)

I'm not sure where it is in Scripture, but the thieves were placed back on the cross after the Sabbath. Death, on a cross, takes about 3 to 7 days.

So what fruit did the thief on the cross experience?

You must remember that the thief saw Christ die. I'm sure he questioned Christ's promise of paradise, after all Christ had died!

So the fruit that I would say God gave the thief was peace & patience.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness ...

[Gibs]

Jesus saw of course the intent of the heart of the thief on the cross, and He saw TRUE repentance and a new man in Himself or it could not be that Jesus declared what He did.

And no sanctification of course does not save, it is the work of Christ in us. We want to as it is of the NEW hearts desire to obtain it fully.

Works no matter how it is attained don't undue our sins, we are only and can only be justified in Jesus Christ.

"The sinner can be justified only through faith in the atonement made through God's dear Son, who became a sacrifice for the sins of the guilty world. No one can be justified by any works of his own. He can be delivered from the guilt of sin, from the condemnation of the law, from the penalty of transgression, only by virtue of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ. Faith is the only condition upon which justification can be obtained, and faith includes not only belief but trust." . . . {NL 20.1}

That dear friends is the "believe", TRUE faith, and be saved we must have! Wonderful faith that works by our love, and be saved, yes just believe that!

We must come to love Him over all other things and a full and undoubting trust in Him, His Word and His forgiveness.

We become His trusting, faithful and obedient children that He needs of us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Jesus saw of course the intent of the heart of the thief on the cross, and He saw TRUE repentance and a new man in Himself or it could not be that Jesus declared what He did.

Isn't that speculation?

[Gibs]

No speculation to it. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

"But the history of David furnishes no countenance to sin. It was when he was walking in the counsel of God that he was called a man after God's own heart. When he sinned, this ceased to be true of him until by repentance he had returned to the Lord. . . . {CC 180.3}

Though David repented of his sin, and was forgiven and accepted by the Lord, he reaped the baleful harvest of the seed he himself had sown. . . . His authority in his own household, his claim to respect and obedience from his sons, was weakened. A sense of his guilt kept him silent when he should have condemned sin; it made his arm feeble to execute justice in his house". . . . {CC 180.4}

Even though we know our sin is forgiven us it remains to haunt us and stymie any counsel we may have.

Like the preacher in sin, is saying, do as I say, not as I do or have done. He has lost credibility and so can not be effective as he should. I believe Paul experienced this too and his sin was a strong deterent to his witness.

None come though except drawn to Him,

"But while it is true that repentance must precede forgiveness, for it is only the broken and contrite heart that is acceptable to God, yet the sinner cannot bring himself to repentance, or prepare himself to come to Christ. . . . The very first step to Christ is taken through the drawing of the Spirit of God; as man responds to this drawing, he advances toward Christ in order that he may repent." . . . {FLB 110.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

No speculation to it. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness..

No, not true....The human race has been redeemed in Christ. There will be many in heaven who did not know of Christ or His law.

Babies, who never could repent, will be in heaven. Ellen White didn't know if all babies would be saved, i.e., those who died before they could exercise faith in God, but nevertheless they didn't repent and yet they will be in heaven. What saved them? The gospel!!!!

The Gentiles who were without law, didn't repent. God took them where they were at.

God's hand is not limited to your legalistic interpretation, Gibs. He has saved the human race in His Son. Therefore He can take to heaven whomever He wants.

[Robert]

Babies, who never could repent, will be in heaven. Ellen White didn't know if all babies would be saved, i.e., those who died before they could exercise faith in God, but nevertheless they didn't repent and yet they will be in heaven. What saved them? The gospel!!!!

As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again nevermore to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life. 2SM 260

[Gibs]

Robert, only the ones He in His foreknowledge who will be obedient will be in the kingdom. We are not saved our way in sin! That will never happen. Sin will not enter Heaven and He does not remove it from any who will not cooperate.

Yes He could have just forgot about a redeemer and made all to be sinless without a free will but He will only have it that His people will be obedient and still have free will.

Those who don't and won't put away sin now have chosen their own destiny.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Robert, only the ones He in His foreknowledge who will be obedient will be in the kingdom.

That's salvation by obedience, and not by the gospel. You are living under the law, Gibs. Face it, you are in the works camp. You are teaching a subtle form of legalism.

[Robert]

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression (Adam's - and we all share his life) there resulted (at the fall) condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ, as the Son of Man] there resulted (past tense) justification of life to all men. [NASB]

Like I said, God has legally satisfied the law in His Son's doing & dying. He can save whom He wants.

All those infants aborted He has saved them in Himself. He has "justified all men unto life".

Now not all men know of the gospel. Babies who die prematurely. Men in lands where there is no knowledge of God (except through nature). Since God has legally saved them "in Christ" then God can take them to heaven at the second coming. Besides, we do not take our humanity indwelt with sin to heaven. All will be glorified before they enter heaven. We will be fully restored in the likeness and image of God.

[Gibs]

Those who truly love Him are obedient to Him, without any doubt and without any striving.

"Do you show that you love God supremely by rendering obedience to his commandments? If not, you are not "unspotted from the world." Only the obedient will is accepted by God; and by constant reliance upon his power, we may gain strength to do his commandments." {RH, May 4, 1897 par. 4}

It is not works or legalism that gets it.

It is the Faith that works by Love.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

It is the Faith that works by Love

yes, for those who have accepted the gospel, but many haven't because they didn't hear the gospel or understand it. Are those lost?

Jesus has saved the human race in Himself. The law has been satisfied.

[Gibs]

For sure I know Jesus satisfied the law and by the law He is exonerated. But is the law satisfied in him that are condemned found guilty by it. There will no doubt be many claiming to be Christians and saved found to be guilty.

We cannot be the judge of those who have not heard the Gospel. Those who don't understand such a simple message then are they drawn by the Spirit of God?

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If one will be drawn and some will not, are drawn to Him. Again we don't know the capacity and depth of knowlege these who don't understand may have and this is God's call.

Most of the time it is the common not so educated man who understands the spiritual than the highly educated of the world who begin to think they have the wisdom but with God nothing but foolishness.

The law is satisfied in us when we have put on Christ's robe of Righteouness by faith. Our past sins forgiven and our slate is clean. Washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb!

Moment by moment then we walk with Him and He will keep us in the way!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Great discussion, folks! I may be a biased judge, but I think Robert is winning the debate. He gets it. God indeed judges our hearts, not our external behavior. (See 1 Sam.16:7, 1 Kings8:38-39, Luke 16:15, Acts 15:8, 2 Cor. 3:3). Robert had a good point about the thief on the cross. I will add Sampson to the list. All the debate about Paul in Corinthians, he still says: "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" In spite of their corruption and twisted deeds, Paul calls them saints!

God knows our hearts. He knows who loves Him and their fellow men. We are broken; and have beed since Adam and Eve fell. But God sees past that. He's our Father (dare I say Daddy?). I may not subscribe to OSAS; because some maeyend up wanting a "divorce" from God (don't ask me why). But I believe that If we want to be in heaven with Him; and believe He is who He says He is, we will be with Him.

He is so good!

"Oh! How I love Him so! Oh how we love Him! How we love Him so!"

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

How can we not love Him with all our hearts and souls, all Heaven could bestow was given that each and every last one could be saved.

That love for Him will do all that pleases Him with no trouble!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I agree with your statement; but I'm not "perfect"! I inadvertently hurt the ones I love - not cuz I want to, but because I make mistakes. I do the same with Jesus. I love Him more than you could imagine; but sometimes I do stupid things. One of the reasons I love Him so much is cuz I don't believe He condemns me when I screw up. I talk to Him, He forgives me and encourages me; and we go on. He is so awesome ! I WISH I was more like Him. He's not only my Lord and Savior; He's my Role Model and my Hero! Oh, how I wish you could see Him like I see Him!

[Woody]

Gibs,

I agree with your statement; but I'm not "perfect"! I inadvertently hurt the ones I love - not cuz I want to, but because I make mistakes. I do the same with Jesus. I love Him more than you could imagine; but sometimes I do stupid things. One of the reasons I love Him so much is cuz I don't believe He condemns me when I screw up. I talk to Him, He forgives me and encourages me; and we go on. He is so awesome ! I WISH I was more like Him. He's not only my Lord and Savior; He's my Role Model and my Hero! Oh, how I wish you could see Him like I see Him!

[Robert]

The law is satisfied in us when we have put on Christ's robe of Righteouness by faith. Our past sins forgiven and our slate is clean.

No, we died to the law in the humanity of Christ. As far as the law is concerned we are dead - killed by the law itself. Therefore we are not under the jurisdiction of the law. That means every time you sin you do not come unjustified. Also, keep in mind, that we are never fully measuring up to Christ's life. Again, under law, that would condemn us.

This clean slate idea is subtle legalism. To be just before God's law in Christ means just that. We are perfect "in Christ" even though in experience we are very unlike Christ.

[Robert]

At least I have some friends like Woody and JoeMo here on CA.

[Gibs]

Robert, I noticed JoeMo is your friend, and I am too, but you don't realize it.

Do I have to agree to be a friend? It isn't neceaary really.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.