How Do We Know?

[Guest]

Oh, how I wish you could see Him like I see Him!

You seem to be assuming quite a lot with this statement. That you somehow know the Lord better than Gibs. Or that he can't see the Lord clearly, like you can. I wouldn't bet the farm on that presumption.

[Robert]

Robert, I noticed JoeMo is your friend, and I am too, but you don't realize it.

Look, Jesus loved the Pharisees, but He hated their message. I feel like your message is legalistic and since I still have human tendencies I have a hard time loving those who are legalistic. That's one of my besetting sins I guess....

So I would like to be on friendly terms with you, but your message makes me a bit unfriendly.

Even Paul didn't seem so friendly to the Judaizers. Check out what I mean:

Phil 3:2 Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh.

Acts 23:3 Before long," exclaimed Paul, "God will strike you (High Priest Ananias), you white-washed wall (compare to Matt 23:27)!

Gal 5:2 As for those agitators (Judaizers), I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

emasculate: removal of the genitalia of a male, both the penis and the testicles

You see the Judizers were demanding that new Christian believers keep the law and be circumcised in order to gain heaven. See Acts 15:1,5. His response, especially on circumcision, was I wish they would go all the way and remove both the penis and the testicles.

So I have Paul's problem....I get feed up with those who push perfection & legalism...

Keep in mind Paul said, "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."

I have my limits....

[Gibs]

Know this Robert, neither of us is alone in what we find to be truth. You choose to call my view legalistic but I am not.

Yes your view is the popular one in Christianity this last day of time, not literal.

Anyway do keep an open mind and to the voice of His Spirit.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Yes your view is the popular one in Christianity...

My views are much different then those found in most Christian circles.....I'm not in either camp....

[JoeMo]

RLH,

I'm not really assuming anything here. I'm not saying I see the Lord more clearly - just differently. I was in the same camp as Gibs for years; and it never felt good. I spent a lot of time resenting God for being such a harsh overseer; and resenting those who judged me in their own self-righteousness. Seeing God as a Father rather than an overseer just makes me feel closer to Him and helps me trust Him and respond to Him out of love rather than "fear" (intimidation). I still "fear" Him in the sense that I hold Him in respect and awe; but I'm not afraid of Him any more; nor do I resent those who also know they are saved by grace alone, because they don't judge me or come across as being "better" than me. I simply prefer honesty and encouragement to condemnation and judgement.

I am betting the farm on trusting in God's love and grace rather than His judgement and wrath. I'm betting more than the farm - I'm betting my eternal life.

[John317]

So I have Paul's problem....I get feed up with those who push perfection & legalism...

Did Paul get fed up with Christians who said that we shouldn't go on sinning?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

He has saved the human race in His Son.

Opinion only unless it can be verified with the Word.

God blesses!

[Robert]

Quote:

He has saved the human race in His Son.

Opinion only unless it can be verified with the Word.

God blesses!

Heb 10:9 Behold, I [Christ] have come to do your (God's) will." He takes away the first [covenant] in order to establish the second [covenant], 10 by which will (i.e., His doing & dying) we have been (past tense) made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's]there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's doing & dying] there resulted [past tense] justification of life to all men.

[Robert]

Did Paul get fed up with Christians who said that we shouldn't go on sinning?

In respect to gaining heaven, absolutely.

[Gerr]

"IT IS WRITTEN."

[BobRyan]

Notice this pattern of studying/quoting/presenting Romans 2 "in complete sentences"??

Romans 2

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

===========================

We can see the point clearly when we are willing to actually read complete sentences from Romans 2.

And now notice the claim below that all who read this chapter in "complete sentences" will be lost??

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

You realize of course that my argument that you have to read in complete sentences is going to be quickly accepted as a "given" by the objective unbiased readers.

This point is not too difficult to follow.

Then you and "the unbiased readers" will be lost!

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated (i.e., cutoff) from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

This represents the extremes to which some arguments will go to avoid areas where the Bible flatly contradicts their preferences.

Notice that in Romans 2 Paul does NOT say "no one goes to heaven here - because I am not talking about the gospel -- I am just talking about the case of the lost - those without the Gospel.

In fact - let's notice just how far from that idea - is Paul's actual point in Romans 2.

Notice that in Romans 2 Paul shows salvation and the Gospel "in the text" with eternal life given to those who are saved under the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Gibs,

I agree with your statement; but I'm not "perfect"! I inadvertently hurt the ones I love - not cuz I want to, but because I make mistakes. I do the same with Jesus. I love Him more than you could imagine; but sometimes I do stupid things. One of the reasons I love Him so much is cuz I don't believe He condemns me when I screw up. I talk to Him, He forgives me and encourages me; and we go on. He is so awesome ! I WISH I was more like Him. He's not only my Lord and Savior; He's my Role Model and my Hero! Oh, how I wish you could see Him like I see Him!

How will that work in the Rev 15:8 state where the sanctuary and the role of Christ applying forgiveness for new sins to your account - ends?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

We will be judged by that wonderful law of liberty, but the justification for the sins we have committed comes through Jesus Christ.

There is none here that I am aware of that are working to be justified by the law.

That is not our thrust, sanctification is the thrust and we grow each day in that or we are falling back. There is no standing still.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I believe all sides here can agree that for the lost - the entire focus is on "what must I do to be justified" - which is why all these Bible texts on sanctification are being ignored in some cases.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

the entire focus is on "what must I do to be justified" - which is why all these Bible texts on sanctification are being ignored in some cases.

You can't do anything to justify yourself before God's law. You are either perfect in Christ by faith or you are not. It is blasphemy to infer we can be justified by the deeds of the law, period!

[BobRyan]

You can't do anything to justify yourself before God's law. You are either perfect in Christ by faith or you are not.

Indeed the lost person is faced with that problem - and truthfully only justification will solve the problem for the lost person.

Now let's see what Paul says about the case for the saved person vs the lost person.

And let's also notice this pattern of quoting Romans 2 "in complete sentences"

Romans 2

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

===========================

Notice that in Romans 2 Paul shows salvation and the Gospel "in the text" with eternal life given to those who are saved under the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

BobRyan, Like your post above, Amen.

True enough that by the law not one can be justified for any sin, that is not the purpose of the law.. It's purpose is a schoolmaster to all who have it NOT writen in their hearts. Any sin, and all of us have fallen, must be pardoned by coming to Christ as the only remedy and be cleansed by His Blood.

When it is writen in the heart it is the first nature of that one to do. Satan works to tear it out of that heart, but he can't if one is mindful to cling to His First Love, Jesus Christ and the Father.

Is it not possible then these keep the law with no galling or striving, the answer of course is yes!

Then if we fall in a sin, it shows the law has been dropped or torn from that heart.

It must be quickly picked back up again by strong repentance and a stronger resolve to keep it in the heart from that time on.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

How long will we have that fallback to catch us, none know, the time is coming though the door will be closed.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Felix Florimon]

Originally Posted By: John317

Did Paul get fed up with Christians who said that we shouldn't go on sinning?

In respect to gaining heaven, absolutely.

The Apostle Paul was chosen by Jesus because Paul was the best indicated person, at that time, to accept Jesus' gospel and take this gospel to the gentiles.

If we don't take into account Jesus' method of teaching about God's kingdom, we could, very easily, give a very wrong application to Paul's teaching. Jesus' method of teaching consisted in taking things from our daily experience and then applying such knowledge and experience to spiritual or heavenly matters. In the same way that our Master used food, wine or water to illustrate a teaching, we could do the same to illustrate Paul's feeling toward those people that he could not get along with and understand why. Therefore, let's use the illustration of a sour or rotten apple. A sour or a rotten apple is an apple but it is also a fruit. Now if Paul did not like sour or rotten apples, it doesn't mean that he disliked apples or fruits.

The same thing could be said about some Jews that had accepted Christianity. The Apostle Paul had a very sour experience with those who strongly felt that those who accepted our Lord Jesus Christ were living in sin if they were not willing to circumcise and to do a series of rituals written by Moses (see Acts 15). Only those people were felt to be rotten or sour apples by the Apostle Paul. Paul never felt disgusted with those that believed that they had gained heaven if they were willing to be guided by God's Holy Spirit to have a better frame of mind. Paul never felt fed up with Christians teachings that we shouldn't go on sinning because this is how the power of the Gospel is seen our lives when we stop thinking and acting in the same sinful ways we use to do it before.

FF

[Robert]

The Apostle Paul had a very sour experience with those who strongly felt that those who accepted our Lord Jesus Christ were living in sin if they were not willing to circumcise and to do a series of rituals written by Moses (see Acts 15).

No, you messed that one up...like the law in Galatians in 1888 GC. The law in Galatians was "especially the moral law". The law in Acts is the law of Moses - "the book of the law" - which includes the moral law.

Good try.

[Robert]

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

No person is just before God by the law, period! You cannot stand just before God's law because you aren't living Christ's life and even if you were, which you're not (see 1 John 1:8), you've already sinned. One sin places you in death row. The law doesn't forgive. So Christ, by His doing & dying, took your humanity and it died the wages of sin (what the law demands) in the body of Christ. That's Paul's gospel!!

[Felix Florimon]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

No person is just before God by the law, period! You cannot stand just before God's law because you aren't living Christ's life and even if you were, which you're not (see 1 John 1:8), you've already sinned. One sin places you in death row. The law doesn't forgive. So Christ, by His doing & dying, took your humanity and it died the wages of sin (what the law demands) in the body of Christ. That's Paul's gospel!!

I am afraid that you are having a wrong understanding of the verse: Those that Paul consider doers of the Law who will be justified are those who are doers of the law through God's Spirit working in their lives after they have accepted Jesus as their Savior. They become doers of the law thanks of the power of the gospel or the word of Jesus in their lives. Through their actions they demonstrate their faith in Jesus as a gift from God and they end up having eternal life because God's does what He said He is going to do.

FF

[Robert]

Those that Paul consider doers of the Law who will be justified are those who are doers of the law through God's Spirit working in their lives after they have accepted Jesus as their Savior.

Salvation by what God does in you is not the gospel. That's not what saves. And you are teaching subtle legalism. Wow, everywhere I turn I find a legalist....Let me look under a stone in my front yard. Yelp! There's one under there too~!

[Felix Florimon]

Originally Posted By: Felix Florimon

Those that Paul consider doers of the Law who will be justified are those who are doers of the law through God's Spirit working in their lives after they have accepted Jesus as their Savior.

Salvation by what God does in you is not the gospel. That's not what saves. And you are teaching subtle legalism. Wow, everywhere I turn I find a legalist....Let me look under a stone in my front yard. Yelp! There's one under there too~!

Gospel is just good news: God giving salvation is the good news so when we talk about the power of the Gospel we are referring to the power of God for salvation because God's salvation is what the gospel is all about. Therefore, in the context of John 3:16, the title "power of the gospel" should always be understood as the power of God saving us from our sinful lives to live eternally with Him after accepting Jesus through our faith and belief in Him.

FF

[JoeMo]

Bob,

"And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." (Rev. 15:8)

I don't see where it says here that "the role of Christ applying forgiveness for new sins to your account - ends". In fact, I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says those who truly repent are refused forgiveness. In context, it seems to me that this verse refers to the heavenly temple; and I'm not aware of humans entering that temple before the Second Coming anyways. In fact, this verse reminds me of the OT verses where Solomon's Temple was dedicated and the glory of God filled the temple. If I remember correctly, that was a good thing. Did for forgiveness of sin quit then?

Concerning your repetitive quote from Romans 2:9 that "There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek", I could give many "proof texts" about the righteous suffering tribulation and distress as well (e.g., Dan.7:25) but I prefer to take the whole gospel in context, summarized best by those familiar verses in John 3:16-17.

In response to your proof texts, I offer the following proof text in response:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Cor. 13:13-15)

So yes, the unrighteous will suffer loss (distress); but if they - even in their own unrighteousness - have submitted themselves to Christ, they are covered by His righteousness and are saved.

[Gibs]

Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

He has just finished His Work in the Most Holy place and probation is ended.

And then,

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You can't do anything to justify yourself before God's law. You are either perfect in Christ by faith or you are not.

Indeed the lost person is faced with that problem - and truthfully only justification will solve the problem for the lost person.

Let's see..the lost person can's save himself by law, but the believer can? What utter, legalistic nonsense! Balderdash!