Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Clearly Christ, as God, took into Himself (assumed) our fallen life from Adam after the fall.

"Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous."Romans 5:19 NLT

Quote:

Keep in mind Christ "was made sin", who personally as God knew no sin.

""He who truly believes in Christ is made a partaker of the divine nature, and has power that he can appropriate under every temptation.—The Review and Herald, January 14, 1909

" Christ knew that Adam in Eden with his superior advantages might have withstood the temptations of Satan and conquered him."The Ministry of Healing, 73

God blesses!

[Gustave]

All nonsense....You need to understand the gospel. Read Paul, without the Pope's help, and you will learn the gospel.

The Gospel is the great news that God was victorious over the Devil through His Christ....

...And as Jesus Himself said this was a 100% certainty!

...And anyone who doubted it was a FOOL!

Luke 24,25

There is a literal TON of quotes from the Prophets that said without question.....

...That God Himself would come and SAVE us.

...The Great God of Heaven said this specicially through Daniel.

Daniel 2,45!

So, Ellen White's interpretation ursurps what the great God of heaven says WILL for sure happen....

...Then when I bring up this "fact" it's suggested I might be on drugs.

...This is exactly why I detailed all of this out in the Nicene Creed thread.

As I demonstrated in that thread - Ellen White was an Arian.....

...Along with the other founders of SDAism.

...And as such was required to teach a conditional creature christ.

[12tribes]

Was Jesus born perfect?

"None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ’s character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God’s assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2}

Romans 6:16

(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If we are fully surrendered to God we servants of obedience unto righteousness

[Robert]

The Gospel is the great news that God was victorious over the Devil through His Christ....

[Gustave]

No, that's not the gospel. The devil is alive and well.

[John317]

Like I said, the SDA Gospel isn't the Gospel according to the Bible.

The SDA gospel is the same as that proclaimed by Saint Paul in Galatians, Romans, and 1 Cor. 15, and by the first angel of Rev. 14: 6. It is the Good News about who God is and how He has saved mankind because of His love for us. It includes the life, death, resurrection, ascension, mediatorial ministry, and second coming of Christ for His church. In short, the gospel is Jesus Christ.

[John317]

...As I demonstrated in that thread - Ellen White was an Arian.....

...Along with the other founders of SDAism.

Both James White and Joseph Bates were Arian or semi-Arian, true, but it's untrue to say that Ellen White was. She was undergoing growth in knowledge about the nature of Christ, as well as the nature of the Holy Spirit, and she wrote nothing about them except as she knew God wanted her to write. So, if God didn't make something clear to her, she didn't write merely her own opinion.

Notice she didn't condemn the "Trinity" doctrine per se as her husband did. She attacked errors in the Trinity doctrine (such as those espoused by John Harvey Kellogg), but she didn't reject or attack the Trinity doctrine itself.

[Gustave]

The SDA gospel is the same as that proclaimed by Saint Paul in Galatians, Romans, and 1 Cor. 15, and by the first angel of Rev. 14: 6. It is the Good News about who God is and how He has saved mankind because of His love for us. It includes the life, death, resurrection, ascension, mediatorial ministry, and second coming of Christ for His church. In short, the gospel is Jesus Christ.

[John317]

...

No Arian teaching that I know of John suggestes that Jesus ever did sin...

...Arians simply maintained that HE COULD HAVE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE for Him to sin, etc.

...Because only "GOD" is eternally IMPECCABLE.

...And "GOD" in the strict sense = The Father ONLY.

Three points:

1) Just because we agree with Arians on the point about the possibility of Christ's sinning does not make us Arian.

2) Jesus was a man with the freedom to choose whether to sin or not. Yet at the same time, He was also God. But the point is that as a man, Christ could have decided not to go through with the plan of redemption. He could have decided mankind simply wasn't worth the cost.

3) It's a mistake to say that in the SDA view, only the Father is "God" in the strict sense. Ellen White herself says, "Christ was God in the highest sense," and "when He became man, He did not cease to be God." She also says many times that Christ was equal with the Father. Since Christ was/is equal with the Father, it would be a contradiction to say Christ was less God than the Father. As God, Christ is inherently everything the Father is. That is what John 1: 1 and Hebrews 1: 3 are saying.

[John317]

...Because NOTHING could ever kill "God".

...This is a classic example of cognitive dissonance.

...Because SDA's claim Jesus could have been annihilated by God had He sinned.

Jesus the man was not immortal until His resurrection and therefore He could have been annihilated prior to His being made immortal. He was raised and given immortality because His life and His sacrifice on the cross was completely accepted by the Father.

But if Christ the man had disobeyed the Father, it wouldn't mean Deity would have been annihilated; that would have been impossible by very definition. Exactly how Jesus' failure to carry out God's plan would have affected the Godhead and the universe, we simply don't know. But we do know that it would have been catastrophic for both the Godhead and the entire universe.

[John317]

...Kellogg was expelled from the SDA Church because he came to believe IN THE TRINITY.

...Prior to Kellogg accepting the Trinity Doctrine the SDA's used him to deliver apologetics AGAINST THE TRINITY.

The reasons for J.H. Kellogg getting expelled from the SDA Church are more complex than you let on. The bottom line is that Kellogg showed that he wasn't in harmony with the SDA church in many ways, and not merely because of his teaching regarding the Trinity.

Dr. Kellogg wasn't expelled because he believe in the Trinity. Do not forget that there were other SDAs at that time (and earlier) who believed in the Trinity, and these weren't expelled or even disciplined. They weren't even told they must change their beliefs concerning the Godhead/Trinity. Also, remember that James White had earlier published notices in the Review & Herald which announced that the Trinity doctrine was not to be made a test of fellowship or of Christian character.

Dr. Kellogg was expelled because of his false teachings-- something akin to pantheism-- and his refusal to abide by decisions of the church in relation to both doctrine and the management of the Battle Creek sanitarium, etc.

[John317]

...St. Peter comes right out and says Ps 16,10 was God's direct OATH to David.

...That Christ WOULD SIT ON THE THRONE.

No says Ellen White for creature christ could have sinned and lost His salvation!

It's false to claim that Ellen White disputed God's oath to David about Christ sitting on the throne. She never did any such thing.

You're showing that you misunderstand what Ellen White believed and taught.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...

No Arian teaching that I know of John suggestes that Jesus ever did sin...

...Arians simply maintained that HE COULD HAVE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE for Him to sin, etc.

...Because only "GOD" is eternally IMPECCABLE.

...And "GOD" in the strict sense = The Father ONLY.

Three points:

1) Just because we agree with Arians on the point about the possibility of Christ's sinning does not make us Arian.

2) Jesus was a man with the freedom to choose whether to sin or not. Yet at the same time, He was also God. But the point is that as a man, Christ could have decided not to go through with the plan of redemption. He could have decided mankind simply wasn't worth the cost.

3) It's a mistake to say that in the SDA view, only the Father is "God" in the strict sense. Ellen White herself says, "Christ was God in the highest sense," and "when He became man, He did not cease to be God." She also says many times that Christ was equal with the Father. Since Christ was/is equal with the Father, it would be a contradiction to say Christ was less God than the Father. As God, Christ is inherently everything the Father is. That is what John 1: 1 and Hebrews 1: 3 are saying.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...Because NOTHING could ever kill "God".

...This is a classic example of cognitive dissonance.

...Because SDA's claim Jesus could have been annihilated by God had He sinned.

Jesus the man was not immortal until His resurrection and therefore He could have been annihilated prior to His being made immortal. He was raised and given immortality because His life and His sacrifice on the cross was completely accepted by the Father.

But if Christ the man had disobeyed the Father, it wouldn't mean Deity would have been annihilated; that would have been impossible by very definition. Exactly how Jesus' failure to carry out God's plan would have affected the Godhead and the universe, we simply don't know. But we do know that it would have been catastrophic for both the Godhead and the entire universe.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...St. Peter comes right out and says Ps 16,10 was God's direct OATH to David.

...That Christ WOULD SIT ON THE THRONE.

No says Ellen White for creature christ could have sinned and lost His salvation!

It's false to claim that Ellen White disputed God's oath to David about Christ sitting on the throne. She never did any such thing.

You're showing that you misunderstand what Ellen White believed and taught.

[Gustave]

Three points:

1) Just because we agree with Arians on the point about the possibility of Christ's sinning does not make us Arian.

[Gibs]

There is Just One and can only be ONE First and that is Yahweh the Father. Then How could Jesus state,

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

There is only one way, it is, The Father and He are one, Spirit, as God is Spirit.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Father sent out from Hiself our Redeemer. So He too is the eternal One!

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Now who was and is in Christ?,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God only represents Himself to us in Spirit, in His Son, Redeemer, and of course, Himself. But is only ONE God, there is and never will be any other.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

So we see the next verse then don't disagree with the one above,

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life

Yes the Son is the True God, one substance with the Father!

"The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes."--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

....2) Jesus was a man with the freedom to choose whether to sin or not. Yet at the same time, He was also God. But the point is that as a man, Christ could have decided not to go through with the plan of redemption. He could have decided mankind simply wasn't worth the cost.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

At what point in the time hack of eternity do SDA's believe Christ "could have"...

...Made a determination such as that?

...Given that Scripture states that Christ always did those things that pleased the Father.

When He was a man on this earth was when Christ could have decided to allow mankind to receive the consequences of Adam's choice to rebel against God.

Yes, Christ always did those things that pleased the Father, but that doesn't mean Christ HAD to do them. He chose to do what pleased the Father. There's no merit in always doing what pleases God if He couldn't possibly have done otherwise. Obedience to God always implies a choice to obey.

Christ chose to obey His Father because of His infinite love for the Father and because He wanted us to have a choice whether to live with Him throughout eternity. Without His suffering and death, we wouldn't have that choice. We would have been faced with eternal oblivion. That's what Christ saved us from BY HIS CHOICE because of His agape/love.

[12tribes]

"Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was manifest in the flesh. What was his work in this world?—To put away sin by the sacrifice of himself on the cross of Calvary. He was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. By his prayers and strong supplications, he overcame. In his human nature, he perfected a character after the divine similitude. By a life of perfect obedience to every requirement of God, he procured redemption for all who will be obedient. The divine nature is imparted to those who receive and acknowledge him as their Saviour. (JT; it is immediate if we accept the gift) They become partakers of the divine nature, overcoming the assaults of Satan and escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust. Christ energizes by his Spirit those who seek him with the whole heart. {RH August 31, 1905, par. 13}

Christ was tempted while on this earth, if it was not possible for Him to sin while on this earth then why was He even tempted? Also how could He be our example if it was not possible for Him to fall? We are not only saved by the death of Jesus we are also saved by His life. He lived a life of perfect obedience that we may be given His righteousness because the Law demands we be perfect something we cannot give since all have sinned.

[John317]

3) It's a mistake to say that in the SDA view, only the Father is "God" in the strict sense. Ellen White herself says, "Christ was God in the highest sense," and "when He became man, He did not cease to be God." She also says many times that Christ was equal with the Father. Since Christ was/is equal with the Father, it would be a contradiction to say Christ was less God than the Father. As God, Christ is inherently everything the Father is. That is what John 1: 1 and Hebrews 1: 3 are saying.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

This is what I mean John,

Adventist Signs of the Times, March 21, 1878

Bible question to the editor

Q. But does it not say that the Word was God?

A. Yes, and it says that he was with God. Being the Son of God of course he is properly called God. This is his name, but he was NOT THE VERY and ETERNAL God Himself for it says that he was with God

And this,

Adventist Review and Sabbath Herald, Sept 12, 1893

Was Christ the God of Israel?

Who was this being who thus called Moses to this important mission? Was it God the Father or God the Son? Was it "THE KING ETERNAL, IMORTAL, INVISIBLE, the only wise God " OR was it Immanuel?

Those SDA's had no problem at all in calling Jesus "God" John.....

...Do you believe that the people who wrote those statements believed in the Trinity?

Of course they did not believe in the Trinity. They were opposed to the Trinity.

Most of the early Pioneers were confused about the Trinity. But what they taught is not the measuring stick of truth. Much that they taught was indeed true, but some of their views were wrong. That's why we don't go to them to determine what the truth is.

You'll also notice that significantly those statements were not written by Ellen G. White.

Ellen White didn't merely call Christ "God," but she said that Christ is "the eternal, self-existent Son of God." She also said that Christ is God essentially and in the highest sense, equal with the Father. Christ was in close relationship with the Father "from all eternity." She said, too, that Christ is "all the fullness of the Godhead" in the same way that the Father is "all the fullness of the Godhead."

You won't find statements by Uriah Smith or James White where they say the same things that Ellen White did on this subject. She spoke of the "eternal Godhead" which she said consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, "the three holiest Beings of heaven," whom she also called "the heavenly trio."

If you can find statements like that by anyone who says they reject the Trinity, please let me know. That is not the way anti-Trinitarians talk.

[Gibs]

But it must be known as I brought out above, Jesus too was the eternal preexistent one as the Father, because it is the Father that is in Him. He is not another Deity!

You can only have ONE first, means before any other! Was the Father first or was Jesus? Jesus stated He was! Yes rightly so! He and the Father are one as He states, and people don't want to believe Him!

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one

Who had it Wrong? Most today. More had it right back yon. There is no Trinity of Gods! We have ONE God who represents Himself to us in triune.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Three points:

1) Just because we agree with Arians on the point about the possibility of Christ's sinning does not make us Arian.

It's exactly what makes SDA theology semi-Arian, at best.

This is your opinion and you're free to believe it, but that doesn't make it true.

There's no direct or necessary connection between Arianism/semi-Arianism and the belief that Christ underwent real temptations in which He could have failed. The Bible itself clearly implies that Christ could have chosen differently in the wilderness of Temptation and in the Garden of Gesthemene. Christ made REAL choices.

[John317]

Gibs, there are three living, distinct, divine Persons in the eternal Godhead-- do you agree?

Christ is not only "pre-existent" but He is "self-existent." That is why Christ is also rightly called "Yahweh" or "Jehovah."

[Gustave]

This is your opinion and you're free to believe it, but that doesn't make it true.

[Gibs]

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

How could one be tempted if He was NOT subject to fall into the temptation? Not possible.

He came as one of us taking no power but we can have to overcome. If He had've taken more power to overcome Satan, he would still be making the Heavens ring with his accusation of fowl play. Satan really thought he would overcome Christ and his empire of evil on this earth would be his and no stopping it.

God had to prove His Law was not an impossible thing to keep. A law of Love from a God of love is not tyrany.. So it is true, God had a son from Mary a woman 4,000 yrs aprox. from the fall and so was the son of man too. With the intensity of Satan to get one to sin and especially now Jesus Christ the man who was God with us, had to as our example overcome Satan as one of us.

If He hadn't as one of us, taking no power but what can be ours He could not been able to succor us.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Yes the liability was very great but in His Great Love God set about to do it with His Redeemer and ours.

Satan was not tempting God but only the man God dwells in.

Now God will dwell in you, Christ in you is the same power Christ had. For now that He won the victory ALL power of the Father is given Him. Read 1 Cor 15:24-28, He is to reign until this sin business is finished. It now is close to being finished as the culmination of evil has about reached it's max.

Yes God vindicated His law and His Love by showing us how we can also do it and be the coveted overcomers we must be!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.