Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way.

[jamesonofthunder]

Good debate brothers, that was the intention.

When I asked the question, "was Jesus born perfect" I wanted to draw attention to the fact that Mrs White was shown and wrote under inspiration that Jesus was "perfected as a man". (Look to original post)

This issue is important for several reasons but none more than this, God had not been tempted like men have until He became a man. He had to endure the test that Adam had failed to become our redeemer.

So in this context alone was Jesus "perfected" even more than the character perfection He was born with, namely He endured the temptations of Satan and this resistance to evil made Him the perfect man.

God sacrificed Himself through Jesus, but He could not physically die. The Father is outside of our time and space and is Eternal, so was His Son Jesus until He became a man. Then He was subject to our limitations and physical laws. He only used what is available to men to overcome sin, the word of God.

Jesus took on our fallen nature but did not sin. He had every opportunity to sin and did not do it. THIS IS WHAT PERFECTED HIM AS A MAN. He died with a perfect record.

Perfection for men can only come through obedience. We have all sinned except one. His record was spotless.

Jesus could not have died as God, but after He took the sins of the world upon Himself, He could die as a man. The wages of sin is death and since He had not sinned, wicked men could not lay hands on Him until He took the sins of the world upon Himself leaving the upper room and exiting Jerusalem. Then it was possible for them to touch Him, but since He still even then had not sinned they could not touch His soul where the Holy Spirit resides.

[Gustave]

So do you see this to be Truth, Gustave?

"In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son."John 1:1,14 NLT

[Gustave]

Good debate brothers, that was the intention.

When I asked the question, "was Jesus born perfect" I wanted to draw attention to the fact that Mrs White was shown and wrote under inspiration that Jesus was "perfected as a man". (Look to original post)

[jamesonofthunder]

What are you talking about? Jesus did die AS God....

...He was as much God as He was man.

...Two natures united perfectly in the ONE Person Jesus Christ.

I know what you are saying and let me clarify what I meant, His divine nature could not die.

"Humanity died; divinity did not die." {1SM 301.1}

"Deity did not die. Humanity died..." {5BC 1113.4}

This is what the Spirit of Prophecy says.

Are a non-believer in the Spirit of Prophecy?

[jamesonofthunder]

So Jesus could not die in His deified state.

Ever notice all the emphasis on the fact that His body did not rot?

[jamesonofthunder]

On the cross when Jesus the Son of God was dying the physical death He said "Father into thine hands I commend my Spirit" then He died.

"Through Jesus, God’s mercy was manifested to men; but mercy does not set aside justice. The law reveals the attributes of God’s character, and not a jot or tittle of it could be changed to meet man in his fallen condition. God did not change His law, but He sacrificed Himself, in Christ, for man’s redemption. “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.” 2 Corinthians 5:19. {DA 762.1}

"When the voice of the angel was heard saying, “Thy Father calls thee,” He who had said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again,” “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died, but Christ now proclaims over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, “I am the resurrection, and the life.” In His divinity Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He had life in Himself to quicken whom He will." {5BC 1113.4}

Notice here how the prophecy says "Humanity died", not the just the humanity of Christ, but all of humanity died in His death. He literally died the second death, cut off from the Father, for every man who would ever be born if they would only accept His offering for us. There is a lot to learn here. Humanity died and in their place came 'son's of God' resurrected to new life.

This is the greatest mystery of scripture.

God called Jesus back to life, and Jesus, who had life within himself resurrected himself by the power that the Father had invested him with at his birth in heaven. But during His stay in the grave do not be confused, He was a PRISONER in behalf of all mankind during the three days and three nights in the grave of Jonah. He was still suffering the wrath of God in the grave, still cut off from the Father.

"He who died for the sins of the world was to remain in the tomb the allotted time. He was in that stony prison house as a prisoner of divine justice. He was responsible to the Judge of the universe. He was bearing the sins of the world, and His Father only could release Him. A strong guard of mighty angels kept watch over the tomb, and had a hand been raised to remove the body, the flashing forth of their glory would have laid him who ventured powerless on the earth. {5BC 1114.1}

There was only one entrance to the tomb, and neither human force nor fraud could tamper with the stone that guarded the entrance. Here Jesus rested during the Sabbath. But prophecy had pointed out that on the third day Christ would rise from the dead. Christ Himself had assured His disciples of this. “Destroy this temple,” He said, “and in three days I will raise it up.” Christ never committed sin, neither was guile found in His mouth. His body was to come forth from the tomb untarnished by corruption (Manuscript 94, 1897).{5BC 1114.2}

Notice how Mrs White was shown that "Prophecy had pointed out that on the third day Christ would rise from the dead"... The thoughts of the Father were made manifest through the mouth of His Son in heaven in the creation of man, and every word that ever came out of his mouth for us HAD to be fulfilled. Every word of prophecy is written in the fabric of eternity and cannot be thwarted, they MUST come true. To understand this IS faith.

So when God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit thought to make men in their image and laid the foundation or our universe, Jesus spoke the words in heaven that where made manifest through Him in His life on earth.

When in His triumphal entry into Jerusalem He said "if they were to stop shouting, the rocks would immediately begin where they left off" he meant that the words that He spoke in heaven, how He could divinely see it unfold before it happened, MUST come to pass.

So the fulfillment of Jesus being cut off from the Father was prophesied and must come to pass. This is how these things were accomplished, through the words of God made manifest on earth. Jesus as man was living out the life He had proposed and foresaw in heaven. Heaven is above space and time of our existence. God did not die when Jesus died as a man because Jesus is part of the Father.

I know this will be misunderstood, but it is a good lesson.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Ellen White claimed that it was possible for God the Son to sin and loose His salvation.

If it were impossible for the Son of Man/Son of God to sin, then He could not personally take my place on the cross, for I can be tempted to give up, knowing I can lose my salvation by sinning. Therefore He would not be the perfect substitute, taking my place and this Scripture would be false.

"For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15 ASV underlined mine LHC

Since I believe the Scripture cannot be broken, I cannot accept your conclusions.

"Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? "John 10:34-36 NKJV underlining mine, parenthesis their's LHC

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

He was bearing the sins of the world, and His Father only could release Him.

Again you make a statement of which I'm sure you believe it to be true. However it is in direct contradiction to the Word.

"“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”"John 10:17-18 NKJV

God blesses!

[Gustave]

I know what you are saying and let me clarify what I meant, His divine nature could not die.

"Humanity died; divinity did not die." {1SM 301.1}

"Deity did not die. Humanity died..." {5BC 1113.4}

This is what the Spirit of Prophecy says.

Are a non-believer in the Spirit of Prophecy?

My primary issue is what Ellen White said WOULD HAVE HAPPENED if Christ sinned and lost His salvation....

...THAT is the issue here James.

...She said that His humanity and divinity could NOT be separated.

This mechanism of Ellen White was what allowed her to boast that "IF" Christ would have sinned....

...Whatever the Pre-Incarnate Christ WAS would have been eternally annihilated by the real God.

....I.E. "He steaked His Future eternal life on the outcome".

Understand that this RISK was realized PRIOR to ( not after ) the Incarnation.

Do you mean to ask me if I'm a believer in Ellen White?

...If that's what you mean of course I'm not.

[jamesonofthunder]

Then why are you here? If you are not a Seventh Day Adventist why would you come to a website for seventh day Adventists? That sounds pretty wicked to me.

You guys like coming here to start problems for others in their faith? That sounds like something Satan would do.

[Gustave]

Then why are you here? If you are not a Seventh Day Adventist why would you come to a website for seventh day Adventists? That sounds pretty wicked to me.

You guys like coming here to start problems for others in their faith? That sounds like something Satan would do.

For the same reason SDA's like to log into Catholic Answers Forums....

...That's how I even found out about you guys here.

...Does that have to be wicked james?

Or perhaps you don't like me illustrating just where in the Bible....

....That God Almighty says over and over again that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to loose His salvation.

....Then showing you over and over again just where Ellen White said it was possible.

Could that be the nerve that's been struck?

[jamesonofthunder]

....That God Almighty says over and over again that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to loose His salvation.

Could you prove this statement? Give me quotes. A thus saith the Lord please.

[jamesonofthunder]

If it was impossible for Jesus to commit sin then why was He allowed to be tempted? Would it be fair for God to come as God to overcome the temptations of the devil? He had to come as a man with the possibility to sin in order for the contest to be fair.

[jamesonofthunder]

Revelation 3:21 (KJV)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

How could Jesus expect us to overcome like He did if it were not possible for him to sin?

[jamesonofthunder]

Mr Gustav,

I have prayed about this situation. In my flesh I wanted to argue. Although I think you are being over confident, you seem to have some knowledge.

So then do I commend you for your honesty in confessing to be from the camp of our adversary the Roman Catholic Church.

I have not yet met anyone to confess such a thing (though I am convicted by the Spirit that it is quite frequent that I have come into contact with many spies from there claiming the Adventist Faith.)

I would be willing to continue this debate on one condition... please do not come into it blind, use scripture to let it defend itself and I will gladly exchange repartee with you. Deal?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

That God Almighty says over and over again that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to loose His salvation

Scripture please.

God blesses!

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

....That God Almighty says over and over again that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to loose His salvation.

Could you prove this statement? Give me quotes. A thus saith the Lord please.

Acts 2,22

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the DETERMINATE COUNSEL and FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was NOT POSSIBLE that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh CONCERNING HIM, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and KNOWING that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Strong's G3727

1) that which has been pledged or promised with an oath

&

G3724

1) to define

a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)

to determine, appoint

1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree

2) to ordain, determine, appoint

Ahhh, James, THAT was "God" who promised that oath....

...And there is approx 100 EQUALLY explicit thus saith the Lord unequivocal Scriptures.

...Which say the exact same thing.

Feel free to check them out in the Nicene Creed thread where I go through them....

...You tell me just how many you need to see.

[Gustave]

Didn't think so - but just in case I've got a literal TON of Scriptures...

...That says the identical thing.

...I.E. God knows the end from the beginning AND declaired it to the Prophets in Scripture.

...Christ Himself CONFIRMED everything in the Old Covenant written about him HAD TO TAKE PLACE.

[Gustave]

Mr Gustav,

I have prayed about this situation. In my flesh I wanted to argue. Although I think you are being over confident, you seem to have some knowledge.

So then do I commend you for your honesty in confessing to be from the camp of our adversary the Roman Catholic Church.

I have not yet met anyone to confess such a thing (though I am convicted by the Spirit that it is quite frequent that I have come into contact with many spies from there claiming the Adventist Faith.)

I would be willing to continue this debate on one condition... please do not come into it blind, use scripture to let it defend itself and I will gladly exchange repartee with you. Deal?

Deal, Scripture, Magisterium, Reasoning....

...&, believe me when I say we are not your adversary.

[jamesonofthunder]

Moderators, this man has come right out and said he's here to be a distraction. Can anyone do something about this?

[Gustave]

Moderators, this man has come right out and said he's here to be a distraction. Can anyone do something about this?

You offered me a deal james - I accepted it and gave you Scripture...

...If you meant what you said now would be the time you answer.

...You did say "Scripture please".

If you think I'm here to cause a distraction you've evidently not read the Nicene Creed thread I started.....

...I'm for real james.

[jamesonofthunder]

I think the argument that ensued off this topic is interesting. That was the intent, for a purpose. It is very important for us to understand this lesson, and it is non-negotiable in the perfection of Character.

John 17:19 "For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified."

The facts remain; no matter what your argument is, there is power here that we have not begun to assimilate as a people yet. The perfection of Godliness is mandatory yet you all want argue against the possibility of the greatest promise ever given to us.

Jesus came as a baby, and he was tested as a child, yet he did not sin. Through every stage of development He resisted every temptation, but He wasn't allowed to be tested to the limits in His youth. It wasn't until He was thirty years old and the Holy Spirit came upon Him that the winds of strife were fully permitted to blow on him in force. (The four winds are let loose in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit)

He was tested to the ultimate abilities of His developed human nature after the Spirit came on Him like a dove, but even then He NEVER used His strength as God to resist evil. His ONLY advantage in this life was the Character He was endowed with by being the Son of God. He was and is and always will be God, but He did not use the strength of His divinity to overcome sin in His humanity.

He did not come out of the womb quoting scripture, our only defense. Nor was He casting out demons.

God showed us the path to raising heavenly inspired children through His development. Look it up in the Spirit of Prophecy. His mother was a great example because of how she was guided by the Holy Spirit to raise Jesus. If this is our example for a Holy outcome through mortality, then it was obviously important in the development of our saviours mind as a human. What good would it do for us fallin mortals to have Jesus as our example if He was using His powers as God to defend himself? Don't you get it? Stop arguing on this point and embrace it.

"In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character."

Jesus is our perfect example in how to perfect the fallen nature of the descendants of Adam. He was fully man yet he never sinned. He fought the devil by the same power available to all of us. THIS IS ESSENTIAL TO UNDERSTAND!!!!

He is God who became man, and we are men who get to become like God. Please think about this, because our sights are set way too low for what we are about to come into.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

But how do we do this? Do we just accept Him and he does the rest? Yes and no. When we accept Him He gives us the power to cooperate with Him in renewing our hearts to the image of Christ, the possession Adam forfeited. But He cannot do it if we are holding on to sin, and the time is coming that everyone who did not let go will be found wanting when the end of probation comes.

"God leads his people on step by step. He brings them up to different points which are calculated to manifest what is in the heart. Some endure at one point, but fall off at the next. At every advanced point the heart is tested, and tried a little closer. If the professed people of God find their hearts opposed to the straight work of God, it should convince them that they have a work to do to overcome, or be spued out of the mouth of the Lord. Said the angel, “God will bring his work closer and closer to test them, and prove every one of his people.” Some are willing to receive one point, but when God brings them to another testing point, they shrink from it and stand back, because they find it strikes directly at some cherished idol. Here they have opportunity to see what is in their hearts that shuts out Jesus. They prize something higher than the truth, and their hearts are not prepared to receive Jesus. Individuals are tested and proved a length of time to see if they will sacrifice their idols, and heed the counsel of the true Witness. If they will not be purified through obeying the truth, and overcome their selfishness, their pride, and evil passions, the angels of God have their charge,—“They are joined to their idols, let them alone,”—and they pass on to their work, leaving them with their evil traits unsubdued, to the control of evil angels. Those who come up to every point, and stand every test, and overcome, be the price what it may, have heeded the counsel of the true Witness, and they will be fitted for translation by the latter rain. {4bSG 34.1}

God proves his people in this world. This is the fitting up place to appear in his presence. Here in this world, in these last days, individuals will show what power affects their hearts, and controls their actions. If it is the power of divine truth, it will lead to good works. It will elevate the receiver, and make him noble-hearted and generous, like his divine Lord. But if the evil angels control the heart, it will be seen in various ways. The fruit will be selfishness, covetousness, pride, and evil passions. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Professors of religion are not willing to closely examine their own selves to see whether they are in the faith, and it is a fearful fact that many are leaning on a false hope. Some lean upon an old experience; but when brought down to this heart-searching time, when all should have a daily experience, they have nothing to relate. They seem to think a profession of the truth will save them. When those sins which God hates are subdued, Jesus will come in and sup with you, and you with him. You will then draw divine strength from Jesus, and you will grow up in him, and be able with holy triumph to say, Blessed be God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. It would be more pleasing to the Lord if lukewarm professors of religion had never named his name. They are a continual weight to those who would be faithful followers of Jesus. They are a stumbling-block to unbelievers, and evil angels exult over them, and taunt the angels of God with their crooked course. Such are a curse to the cause at home or abroad. They draw nigh to God with their lips, while their heart is far from him. {4bSG 34.2}

I have seen a great light, and God has shown me that everyone who mocks this lesson will not make it. Peace in the name of Jesus.

[joeb]

Jamesonofthunder,

I have come to the exact same conclusion--that we as a people are aiming way too low in our spiritual expectations--you have. I've come at it though from a different perspective. All throughout the SOP and the Bible are promises of the work of sanctification God promises to do in and through us, and most people simply do not believe those promises. They don't take God at His word.

[jamesonofthunder]

Very good response.

[Ted Oplinger]

Very interesting point here.

Could it be that the Remnant is not tested to the limits, because we have not grown to the full maturity we are supposed to be?

Likewise, the extension to our own personal walks is deep food for thought as well.

Thanks for sharing this.

Blessings,