Football and Adventism

[BobRyan]

Bob, you know it cannot be found.

sky

[BobRyan]

So the logical question is - if all there is to be said about football in Ellen White's writings is of the following form

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Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

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But there is also another one for "football" -

Some of the most popular amusements, such as football and boxing, have become schools of brutality. They are developing the same characteristics as did the games of ancient Rome. The love of domination, the pride in mere brute force, the reckless disregard of life, are exerting upon the youth a power to demoralize that is appalling. {AH 500.3}

Which appears to go along with this --

I could refer to chapter after chapter of the Old Testament Scriptures that contain great encouragement. These Scriptures are a treasure house of precious pearls, and all need them. How much time is spent by intelligent human beings in horse racing, cricket matches, and ball playing! But will indulgence in these sports give men a desire to know truth and righteousness? Will it keep God in their thoughts? Will it lead them to inquire, How is it with my soul? {CT 456.1}

All the powers of Satan are set in operation to hold the attention to frivolous amusements, and he is gaining his object. He is interposing his devisings between God and the soul. He will manufacture diversions to keep men from thinking about God. The world, filled with sport and pleasure loving, is always thirsting for some new interest; but how little time and thought are given to the Creator of the heavens and the earth! {CT 456.2}

Among the youth the passion for football games and other kindred selfish gratifications have been misleading in their influence. Watchfulness and prayer and daily consecration to God have not been maintained. Converse, communion with God, is life to the soul. The light has been beclouded, and it was well pleasing to Satan to have the impression go forth that notwithstanding the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit in behalf of our institutions of learning, and the office of publication and the church, they fell back to be overcome by temptation. Satan and evil workers cast reflection upon God, and His name has been dishonored.... {6MR 127.1}

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Then how are we getting by with church sponsored football parties, super bowl parties etc? Wouldn't that be like having a church-sponsored alcohol party, world class boxing sports-fan "party" ?

And - Are we seeing the results of this in our churches today?

Though we have some people here posting in a kind of "Ellen White was wrong" fashion -- this is not what most people do in our churches when it comes to super bowl events.

I sincerely doubt that the Adventist men attending church sponsored super bowl parties today are thinking "I am well aware that Ellen White condemns what we are doing - but I am doing this anyway because I really don't care what Ellen White said when it is inconvenient".

Rather I think that most of them would (like me as of a year ago ) be surprised to find that Ellen White even mentioned football how much more surprised they would be if they actually knew that she only condemned it!

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

So your aren't going to watch FB! Others of us, a large others, will continue! You want to make it a sin, then do it for yourself! I disagree with your interpretation, so what. You follow your leader and I will follow mine.

Time, context, etc, are things that people often forget when reading EGW to support a position. I don't condemn you, so how about the same for others by you?

[Amigo6449]

One funny thing though is that, you find that nowaydays, football especially the English Premier League, is being aired mostly on weekends and especially on sabbaths is the day when we have the big football clubs playing. You will find that most of "Us" are in church keenly listening to the preacher's msg but mentally we have been drfited away wondering if time will move quickly so that we can go and watch that game not knowing we are breaking the 4th Commsnd....if you actuall read Isaiah 58:13 the bible records this If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: and with this i agree with Sister White

[Woody]

This football fan still likes football. I watch at least two games a weekend. I would invite all of you to join our Sports section where we cheer on our teams. Lots of fun. Look forward to seeing you there.

[Robert]

In the end here's what Johnny Cash thought of all his trophies (striving to be the greatest): Referring to his attainments (trophies) Cash said, "You can have it all, my empire of dirt". Interesting video!

View

[Q.E.D.]

"15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."(Luke 16:15)

Notice Christ states "highly esteemed among men" and not "highly esteemed among the children of God" or "highly esteemed among my servants".

Goooooood Morning America. . .

Q.E.D.

[BobRyan]

So your aren't going to watch FB! Others of us, a large others, will continue! You want to make it a sin,

Whoah! Step back to reality for just a sec.

I did not claim to be the author of Ellen White's writings.

Nor did I claim that what Ellen White wrote is just now about to be published and we need to take a vote on whether or not to publish what she said - all in favor say "yes" - those opposed "no" - where I then become one of those voting "yes".

Rather actual history shows - that I authored none of what Ellen White said about football. And history will also show that I am not claiming that what she wrote is now a subject of a "vote" to see whether something is a sin that she condemned - as if now I am campaigning to go ahead and let her writings be published.

Recasting this entire discussion as if the substantive material quoted on this thread - is just "my idea", rises to the level of wishful thinking at best.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

One funny thing though is that, you find that nowaydays, football especially the English Premier League, is being aired mostly on weekends and especially on sabbaths is the day when we have the big football clubs playing. You will find that most of "Us" are in church keenly listening to the preacher's msg but mentally we have been drfited away wondering if time will move quickly so that we can go and watch that game not knowing we are breaking the 4th Commsnd....if you actuall read Isaiah 58:13 the bible records this If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: and with this i agree with Sister White

That idea of people sitting in church thinking about something else - be it Soccer, or Tennis, or work, or some funday-event coming up - is one that we all need to struggle with and deal with effectively in true 2Cor 10:4-5 fashion.

But in this case - we are talking about an announcement from the pulpit - promoting that which is flatly condemned.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

This football fan still likes football. I watch at least two games a weekend. I would invite all of you to join our Sports section where we cheer on our teams. Lots of fun. Look forward to seeing you there.

Free will -- each one may choose to ignore whatever material they wish.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I disagree with your interpretation, so what. You follow your leader and I will follow mine.

So ... you have some other "interpretation" of the material quoted?

Did you post it???

in Christ,

Bob

[Q.E.D.]

"The world had been looking on, expecting that if the time passed and Christ did not appear, the whole system of Adventism would be given up. But while many, under strong temptation, yielded their faith, there were some who stood firm. The fruits of the advent movement, the spirit of humility and heart searching, of renouncing of the world and reformation of life, which had attended the work, testified that it was of God."(Great Controversy 1911 edition, page 405)

"You say, Christ is coming???. . .Did you hear about the Patriots?"

Q.E.D

[BobRyan]

Like as in "agree" -- I actually don't "like" the downside of that - but the upside is wonderful.

There is a "sigh and cry" web site -- that goes along with that post.

http://omega77.tripod.com/achansighcry.htm

[Gerr]

>>a number of references exist in Ellen White's writings specifically dealing with football. So far - all of them flatly condemn it for Christians.<<

Wasn't she also against riding bicycles?--and didn't the apologetics revolve around the co$t incurred by those cursed things?

I guess that sometimes we fail to grasp the 'context' of certain matters, ie: football, as it was played whilst she was alive was a much different game than it is today. Whole lot of rules and regulations have since been implemented..., not to mention that padding and protective devices now attend the game of football.

It is far more dangerous and bloody to drive our streets and highways - than either to play or to watch the game of football.

Context, dear ones.

Yep! I don't think she had anything good to say about OWNING a bicycle in her day, and precisely for the reason you mentioned. I don't think the Bible has much good to say about material riches either. Does that mean wealth is a no no?

Isn't evil just a perversion of what is good? I can't think of anything that is inherently evil at the moment. Drink too much water and it could kill you. A Lamborghini would be evil for me but probably not for Bill Gates.

[Gibs]

Man and Satan will make "kosher" what they like you know, we inherit natural rebellion against right.

Men like beer, whiskey, wine and on and on, sex and porn and says how can anything so good be bad?

Come on Christians, who is our guide? Does His Spirit not guide one from these evils?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

Yep! I don't think she had anything good to say about OWNING a bicycle in her day, and precisely for the reason you mentioned. I don't think the Bible has much good to say about material riches either. Does that mean wealth is a no no?

[Gerr]

Let's look at her statements and see what the problem is.

God designs that the body shall be a temple for His Spirit. How solemn then is the responsibility resting on every soul. . . . How many there are, blessed with reason and intelligence, talents which should be used to the glory of God, who willfully degrade soul and body. Their lives are a continual round of excitement. Cricket and football matches and horse racing absorb the attention. The liquor curse, with its world of woe, is defiling the temple of God. . . . By the use of liquor and tobacco men are debasing the life given them for high and holy purposes. Their practices are represented by wood, hay, and stubble. Their God-given powers are perverted, their senses degraded, to minister to the desires of the carnal mind. {Te 142.2}

White, E. G. (1949). Temperance As Set Forth in the Writings of Ellen G. White (142). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

What's the problem here?

[Tallmark]

It's all about keeping it in perspective. I'm a former MMA athlete and bodybuilder. I don't care anything about football, but others do and I respect that.

[Guest]

"You say, Christ is coming???. . .Did you hear about the Patriots?"

Q.E.D

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

I disagree with your interpretation, so what. You follow your leader and I will follow mine.

So ... you have some other "interpretation" of the material quoted?

Did you post it???

[Guest]

You guys are a hoot. :)

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

I guess that sometimes we fail to grasp the 'context' of certain matters, ie: football, as it was played whilst she was alive was a much different game than it is today. Whole lot of rules and regulations have since been implemented..., not to mention that padding and protective devices now attend the game of football.

I was addressing the tone that utilized such words as blood or the following:

>>The love of domination, the pride in mere brute force, the reckless disregard of life<<

…as I’ve never witnessed the ball player who sought to gouge the opponent’s eyes or to cripple his knees, etc. I’ve seen almost nothing except good sportsmanship, which of itself, is laudatory.

Anyway, getting to your objection:

>>That's not the issue! The issue is "striving for the mastery"... who "should be the greatest"!<<

Do you not strive for “mastery” – say, against the temptations of he Devil?—or that sloe-eyed beauty who wants you so much to ‘come up and see her sometime’?—or…

(err, send her my direction [/kidding]

>>In other words you can apply this principle to anything. The idea of self-seeking or self-glory is diametrically opposed to God's agape love - a love that is not self-seeking.<<

One cannot always be self-denying. It is unhealthy.

>>Therefore what Pastor Jack said is true:

is founded upon the principle of love of self,<<

How could I know love except that I have first loved or known myself?—the evidence is the Gd-instilled basic instinct of self-preservation.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Context, dear ones.

>>she was very much against those that spent money on them and at the same time didn't have money to give to the church.<<

Oh, okay, I’d not known of her intrusiveness into the matters belonging only to Gd and her fellow believers…

[jasd]

>>As you point out - her condemnation of it was in cases where people were not using the money God gave them wisely.<<

Ditto, what I said in the above to pkrause. I was of the opinion that what was between the individual and his Gd was sacred, and not open to criticism or a matter of concern to a busybody.

>>Those who have no value at all for what Ellen White said on the other hand, are usually among the first to overstate some position that she held.<<

Sorry, I thought that I’d qualified my statement sufficiently, ie: “and didn't the apologetics revolve around the co$t incurred by those cursed things?”

I suppose I might have unpacked the issue a bit further, but saw no need, as the principle I was addressing obtained.

[jasd]

>>There are both positive and negative references to bicycles in what Ellen White said - hence my focus on details.<<

I suppose that there is the devil in the details, as one may detail a matter to death.

>>So if someone has the positive reference to football - well that is why I created this thread - time to show us the details.<<

“if someone” – anyone?—or simply EGW?

Anachronism carries only so far…