Football and Adventism

[BobRyan]

It's all about keeping it in perspective. I'm a former MMA athlete and bodybuilder. I don't care anything about football, but others do and I respect that.

My point is for those Adventists who respect what Ellen White wrote on a given subject.

If they have a positive reference to football - then fine - post it.

If not - have they seen this???

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

-------------------------------------------------------------------

But there is also another one for "football" -

Some of the most popular amusements, such as football and boxing, have become schools of brutality. They are developing the same characteristics as did the games of ancient Rome. The love of domination, the pride in mere brute force, the reckless disregard of life, are exerting upon the youth a power to demoralize that is appalling. {AH 500.3}

Which appears to go along with this --

I could refer to chapter after chapter of the Old Testament Scriptures that contain great encouragement. These Scriptures are a treasure house of precious pearls, and all need them. How much time is spent by intelligent human beings in horse racing, cricket matches, and ball playing! But will indulgence in these sports give men a desire to know truth and righteousness? Will it keep God in their thoughts? Will it lead them to inquire, How is it with my soul? {CT 456.1}

All the powers of Satan are set in operation to hold the attention to frivolous amusements, and he is gaining his object. He is interposing his devisings between God and the soul. He will manufacture diversions to keep men from thinking about God. The world, filled with sport and pleasure loving, is always thirsting for some new interest; but how little time and thought are given to the Creator of the heavens and the earth! {CT 456.2}

Among the youth the passion for football games and other kindred selfish gratifications have been misleading in their influence. Watchfulness and prayer and daily consecration to God have not been maintained. Converse, communion with God, is life to the soul. The light has been beclouded, and it was well pleasing to Satan to have the impression go forth that notwithstanding the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit in behalf of our institutions of learning, and the office of publication and the church, they fell back to be overcome by temptation. Satan and evil workers cast reflection upon God, and His name has been dishonored.... {6MR 127.1}

--------------------------------

Then how are we getting by with church sponsored football parties, super bowl parties etc? Wouldn't that be like having a church-sponsored alcohol party, world class boxing sports-fan "party" ?

And - Are we seeing the results of this in our churches today?

Though we have some people here posting in a kind of "Ellen White was wrong" fashion -- this is not what most people do in our churches when it comes to super bowl events.

I sincerely doubt that the Adventist men attending church sponsored super bowl parties today are thinking "I am well aware that Ellen White condemns what we are doing - but I am doing this anyway because I really don't care what Ellen White said when it is inconvenient".

Rather I think that most of them would (like me as of a year ago ) be surprised to find that Ellen White even mentioned football how much more surprised they would be if they actually knew that she only condemned it!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Let's look at her statements and see what the problem is.

God designs that the body shall be a temple for His Spirit. How solemn then is the responsibility resting on every soul. . . . How many there are, blessed with reason and intelligence, talents which should be used to the glory of God, who willfully degrade soul and body. Their lives are a continual round of excitement. Cricket and football matches and horse racing absorb the attention. The liquor curse, with its world of woe, is defiling the temple of God. . . . By the use of liquor and tobacco men are debasing the life given them for high and holy purposes. Their practices are represented by wood, hay, and stubble. Their God-given powers are perverted, their senses degraded, to minister to the desires of the carnal mind. {Te 142.2}

White, E. G. (1949). Temperance As Set Forth in the Writings of Ellen G. White (142). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

What's the problem here?

Ok so clearly in that case liquor, tobacco, horse racing, football etc

Not saying they are bad like "food" if you "eat too much" but rather - that they are bad.

However - maybe she just means "bad if it is an endless round" so that each of them is in fact good just as long as they are not in "endless round"?

Well that is why I also gather the other quotes on the subject of football.

Some of the most popular amusements, such as football and boxing, have become schools of brutality. They are developing the same characteristics as did the games of ancient Rome. The love of domination, the pride in mere brute force, the reckless disregard of life, are exerting upon the youth a power to demoralize that is appalling. {AH 500.3}

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

The love of domination, the pride in mere brute force, the reckless disregard of life....

I.E., the love of self - I'm number one.

"The words of Christ on the mount were an expression of that which had been the unspoken teaching of His life, but which the people had failed to comprehend. They could not understand how, having such great power, He neglected to use it in securing what they regarded as the chief good. Their spirit and motives and methods were the opposite of His. While they claimed to be very jealous for the honor of the law, self-glory was the real object which they sought; and Christ would make it manifest to them that the lover of self is a transgressor of the law.

But the principles cherished by the Pharisees are such as are characteristic of humanity in all ages. The spirit of Pharisaism is the spirit of human nature...." [MB 79]

[BobRyan]

I agree Robert that there is a principle here and it is not simply the "name" football -- but the underlying principle.

For example in that video I posted of the greatest hits in football

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post584912

- many real football fans know exactly what I am talking about. To some non-football fans it simply shows a tragic disregard for life and safety - but to the fans it is one example of the action that is actually part of the draw of football. We don't want them to get hurt as part of that action - but when they do get a little dizzy after a hit - it is proof that the hit was every bit has hard as we thought.

Like attending a car race with the hope of seeing one or two mash ups - not wanting someone to get hurt - just wanting to see action.

In fact another part of it is an example of someone who plays a great game even MVP but was injured at the start of the game - and played anyway. It is as if they are nobly sacrificing for a higher cause.

Football fans know exactly what I am talking about.

in Christ,

Bob

[jasd]

>>Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit (striving to be the greatest), but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Phi 2:3<<

Prov 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron;

1 Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run that ye may obtain.

1 Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things.

>>If God allowed this into heaven, well, heaven would cease to be heaven because "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]<<

Perhaps, this author forgot that she wrote The Great Controversy.

>>Boy...that's Capitalism! Jesus condoning karate! Wow...and this is a Christian website?<<

And “Why not?” I ask. He said that man ought to go naked if must need be – and sell his garment to afford a sword. Hoo-ah!—way better than the empty hand, yes?

Jesus Christ did not eschew the practical – for we live in a very, very wicked world – which will be getting much, much worse.

Lu 22:36 …he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

I suppose that one, having purchased the sword, ought to practice for proficiency - to master the art, yes?—else, he’s no more than a sluggard. Is sluggard okay?—I mean, is sluggardness love?

[jasd]

>>Some of the most popular amusements, such as football and boxing, have become schools of brutality<<.

Abusive language may be considered brutal, ie: the harsh condemnation of another of the congregation… just sayin’.

[Guest]

I reckon I wouldn't like to fight that fellar nossir. He's too slow.

You wouldn't want to hurt him, is that it? That's mighty Christian of you.

[Robert]

1 Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run that ye may obtain. 1 Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things.

[BobRyan]

>>Some of the most popular amusements, such as football and boxing, have become schools of brutality<<.

Abusive language may be considered brutal, ie: the harsh condemnation of another of the congregation… just sayin’.

That is a way to condemn Ellen White's quote above - and I am sure that some among those who reject her as a prophet would accept it.

But there is yet another view presented at this web site - where we find a lot of quotes about the entire denomination held accountable when a certain thing is left to fester.

http://omega77.tripod.com/achansighcry.htm

in Christ,

Bob

[jasd]

>>Jesus: "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword". Remember Christ said "love your enemies".<<

What do you suppose Jesus Christ meant by the words, "...lives by the sword..."?

Was His instruction re selling one's garment to buy a sword intended that one having done so - should live by the sword?

Relevance.

[jasd]

>>That is a way to condemn Ellen White's quote above - and I am sure that some among those who reject her as a prophet would accept it.<<

My statement, "Abusive language may be considered brutal, ie: the harsh condemnation of another of the congregation… just sayin’" was in reference to her confrontation with Kellogg - upon having arrived back from Australia.

When one 'slangs' around words such as "brutal" - one ought to consider how they might redound..., specifically referencing EGW's brutal condemnation of Kellogg.

Let's see, the gist of it was that whilst in Australia she had requested Kellogg send her some monies from the income of the Sanitarium, which he refused. Later, he attempted to explain that the manner in which the Sanitarium was structered in the State (of Michigan, I think), it was illegal for him to send Sanitarium monies to Australia.

Well, we know the ending of the story, ...as it were, don't we?.

What I have posted is from extemporizing. Disabuse me wherein I err.

[Woody]

Bob ... what you fail to grasp ... is that there is no person on the planet who sets out to abide by all that Ellen White says. They always make some kind of excuse to not abide by their pet preferences. And the person can always find an excuse.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: olger

I reckon I wouldn't like to fight that fellar nossir. He's too slow.

You wouldn't want to hurt him, is that it? That's mighty Christian of you.

Dead men are really very slow...

[Robert]

Was His instruction re selling one's garment to buy a sword intended that one having done so - should live by the sword?

Matt 26:51 And suddenly, one (Peter) of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

[BobRyan]

Bob ... what you fail to grasp ... is that there is no person on the planet who sets out to abide by all that Ellen White says.

I think there are a great many in Adventism that choose to ignore whatever they find inconvenient in the writings of Ellen White or who simply reject her prophetic ministry outright.

Those people will not find any statement on any subject by Ellen White to be applicable to them if it is inconvenient. I don't expect them to be too troubled by the fact that Ellen White condemned football or horse racing or alcohol or boxing or whatever.

I also know that for various subjects you can find balancing statements in her writings supporting something in one context and condemning it in another context or if done to excess.

In the case of football it appears that it is only condemned.

I myself was surprised to learn that she even mentioned the sport.

I think a number of other people did not know this as well.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

>>That is a way to condemn Ellen White's quote above - and I am sure that some among those who reject her as a prophet would accept it.<<

My statement, "Abusive language may be considered brutal, ie: the harsh condemnation of another of the congregation… just sayin’" was in reference to her confrontation with Kellogg - upon having arrived back from Australia.

When one 'slangs' around words such as "brutal" - one ought to consider how they might redound..., specifically referencing EGW's brutal condemnation of Kellogg.

Hence my post regarding the problem with Achan that Ellen White mentions as a problem that the SDA church needs to deal with. But ultimately at topic for another thread if interested.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Let's see, the gist of it was that whilst in Australia she had requested Kellogg send her some monies from the income of the Sanitarium, which he refused. Later, he attempted to explain that the manner in which the Sanitarium was structered in the State (of Michigan, I think), it was illegal for him to send Sanitarium monies to Australia.

Well, we know the ending of the story, ...as it were, don't we?.

What I have posted is from extemporizing. Disabuse me wherein I err.

I would certainly be interested in that as a topic for another thread - maybe something like "Kellogg doctrine - ok or a problem?".

As noted above - I have started that thread.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

Dead men are really very slow...

I see...the quick and the dead. (the un-quick) LOL

[jasd]

>>52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

Oh well, I see, …Saint Peter died from a sword wound. But King David died from old age. Doesn't square does it?

Methinks, that there is a certain obliqueness to Jesus Christ’s statement.

[jasd]

>>a problem<<

Or a pique?

[Robert]

>>52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

Oh well, I see, …Saint Peter died from a sword wound. But King David died from old age. Doesn't square does it?

Methinks, that there is a certain obliqueness to Jesus Christ’s statement.

Neither Peter nor David fully reflected Christ. Christ loved His enemies...even gave up heaven for them, but you and I would have struck them down with the sword.

[jasd]

>>even gave up heaven for them, but you and I would have struck them down with the sword.<<

A sad statement indeed. 'swhy there is only the one Jesus Christ - and 'swhy you and I are sinners in need of grace.

In the end we do what we feel obliged - transient objectives by necessity, having been set aside.

We can only cry, "Mercy!" - as the light dims.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Let's see, the gist of it was that whilst in Australia she had requested Kellogg send her some monies from the income of the Sanitarium, which he refused. Later, he attempted to explain that the manner in which the Sanitarium was structered in the State (of Michigan, I think), it was illegal for him to send Sanitarium monies to Australia.

Well, we know the ending of the story, ...as it were, don't we?.

What I have posted is from extemporizing. Disabuse me wherein I err.

I would certainly be interested in that as a topic for another thread - maybe something like "Kellogg doctrine - ok or a problem?".

As noted above - I have started that thread.

[skyblue888]

>>Jesus: "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword". Remember Christ said "love your enemies".<<

What do you suppose Jesus Christ meant by the words, "...lives by the sword..."?

Was His instruction re selling one's garment to buy a sword intended that one having done so - should live by the sword?

Relevance.

Did someone answer this already?

What we have here is an apparent contradiction. There are apparent contradictions in the Bible as well as in the SoP.

For example in Rom.2:13 we read that "the doers of the law will be justified," but in Rom.3:28 we read that "a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

Just an apparent contradiction.

sky

[BobRyan]

>>Jesus: "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword". Remember Christ said "love your enemies".<<

What do you suppose Jesus Christ meant by the words, "...lives by the sword..."?

Was His instruction re selling one's garment to buy a sword intended that one having done so - should live by the sword?

Relevance.

Seems to be a bit off topic.

Wish that offtopic guy was a bit more cheery -