Football and Adventism

[Guest]

Just put a happy guy beside him.

[BobRyan]

ok Will do!

On another thread there is the idea that Ellen White's statements on 6000 years of sin and rebellion in the war between Christ and Satan and the span of time for life on earth - might just be a good "guess" on her part.

The same holds for any statements God may have given to Ellen White regarding this topic (I suppose).

But for the rest of us...It is a matter we have to consider seriously.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

What we have here is an apparent contradiction. There are apparent contradictions in the Bible as well as in the SoP.

For example in Rom.2:13 we read that "the doers of the law will be justified," but in Rom.3:28 we read that "a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

Just an apparent contradiction.

Certainly it is true that we need to look at all the information on a given topic. In the case of Romans 2:13 vs Rom 3:28 - one speaks of coming to Christ (Rom 3:28) and the other speaks of the "judged by works" context of the future judgment.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

"judged by works" context of the future judgment.

You misunderstand the nature of the judgment. If God is seeing who has been naughty or nice then no one will make it to heaven. "By the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight".

There's a judgement because there's an accuser. It's not the works that saves folks rather it is where do those works originate - the flesh or Christ?

[JoeMo]

Has anyone ever considered that part of the judgement will be us judging god's fitness to rule? Whether God or satan is fit to rule the universe seems to be the nature of the Great Controversy. When the citizens of heaven stand up and sing:

“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” (Rev. 4:11)

“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.” (Rev. 5:9-10)

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” (Rev. 5:12)

Could this be the citizens of the universe proclaiming that they have judged Jesus as the legitimate Ruler of the universe?

To make sure this is "On Topic", is this team universe judging that Jesus is worthy to be their "quarterback"?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

"judged by works" context of the future judgment.

You misunderstand the nature of the judgment. If God is seeing who has been naughty or nice then no one will make it to heaven.

"By the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight".

Indeed the rule cannot be "saved by being judged by works".

The lost person who chooses to follow the counsel given to Ellen White in the quotes provided on this thread - and does not watch football - does not by that act, earn salvation.

Nor could he/she do so by honoring their parents.

That is why I note that the Bible says we are saved by grace and judged by works. You do not "change the tree" -- by "looking at it".

God is the one who says "he will judge every work into judgment whether it be good or evil" Eccl 12:14 and that "WE all must stand before the Judgment seat of Christ" 2Cor 5:10. The Devil is not the one setting up that rule.

God is the one that says that it is the "doers of the Law that WILL be justified" Rom 2:13 in that future judgment -- not the Devil.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

God is the one who says "he will judge every work into judgment whether it be good or evil" Eccl 12:14 and that "WE all must stand before the Judgment seat of Christ" 2Cor 5:10. The Devil is not the one setting up that rule.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

God is the one who says "he will judge every work into judgment whether it be good or evil" Eccl 12:14 and that "WE all must stand before the Judgment seat of Christ" 2Cor 5:10. The Devil is not the one setting up that rule.

There's a judgment because there's an accuser. Don't you think that God knows those who are His?

Indeed God knows - and has known - just as He did in the Job 1 and Job 2 case long BEFORE the Investigative Judgment event of Daniel 7:9-10 was set up.

The Judgment with the "Myriads and myriads" in attendance is not for God's benefit. It is for the benefit of the saints and the "Myriads and myriads" of Dan 7.

God is not "Losing cases" to the Devil - to the one who was a "liar from the beginning" - to the "false accuser of the brethren".

NOR are all the names brought up - "passed". Because the Devil has no legal standing at all. His claims are not the claims that have to be met and satisfied. Rather it is the claims of God's own WORD that have to be satisfied. Christ said that every word will be brought into judgment.

Some pass - and some fail - just as Paul explains in Romans 2:6-16. And Christ claims in Matt 7 that it is the great majority that fail.

That happens in true "by their fruits you shall know them" (Matt 7) fashion. "For we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" 2Cor 5:10

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob ... what you fail to grasp ... is that there is no person on the planet who sets out to abide by all that Ellen White says. They always make some kind of excuse to not abide by their pet preferences. And the person can always find an excuse.

Granted that a great many excuses are available on a wide variety of topics.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

"Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned (see the list above), they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.”

"I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. I am the medium through which Heaven's blessings shall come to you. [DA 357]

So according to Ellen White you are a sinner. If you are to stand before God's law it will condemn you. Satan is right - you are a sinner and hence by the works of the law, well, you can forget heaven. Only in Christ is your faulty character hid in the perfection of Christ.

You need to read this again, Bob.

[BobRyan]

If we circle back to the condition of the lost person - we find that they cannot appeal to God on the basis of their faultless sinless record.

Thus all have that problem.

So then all who make some claim to the Gospel solution - claim to have their sins forgiven and claim to be covered by Christ's righteousness - His perfect record.

But not all have it according to Christ in Matt 7 (though all make "the claim"). Christ said "it is not the one who SAYS Lord Lord that will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7.

To continually "circle back" and say "yes but then doing the will of the Father still does not give you a real sinless history - even though you cease to sin from now on - because you cannot undo your past" -- is to miss the entire point Christ is making in Matt 7.

This is why threads such as this one - deal with the subject of turning from sin - rather than wallowing in it.

Look at your own quoted reference

Quote:

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves to the control of evil. They have put away their sins, and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin, and also their repentance, declares: “‘The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan.’ I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands.” {5T 474.2}

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

Preach on Bob!

[BobRyan]

Thanks! It is good to find such strong affirmation and agreement here on Club Adventist.

Keep up the good work.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

But not all have it according to Christ in Matt 7 (though all make "the claim"). Christ said "it is not the one who SAYS Lord Lord that will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father"

It doesn't get any plainer than that Bob. :)

[BobRyan]

Thanks again. Certainly we could wish that all mankind would be saved. In 2Peter 3 we find that God would like that very much. But free will being what it is - not all will make that choice according to Christ in Matt 7.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves to the control of evil.

So, Bob, you think all your sinning is in the past tense?

Let's look at the sins mentioned by Ellen White:

1] "lovers of self"

2] "their own interests"

3] "loved the things of the world"

4] "their selfishness"

Now look at Ellen White once again:

"The lover of self is a transgressor of the law"

And on self-interest:

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish"

Are you above these sins or are they still in your life?

Be very careful with your answer for God knows you heart. He can read the thoughts of your mind.

[Guest]

So, Bob, you think all your sinning is in the past tense?

This shows/provides/reveals/proves, that you have missed the whole point.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So, Bob, you think all your sinning is in the past tense?

This shows/provides/reveals/proves, that you have missed the whole point.

No, Bob insists that "the doers of the law will be justified". What have I missed?

[Robert]

3] "loved the things of the world"

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So, Bob, you think all your sinning is in the past tense?

This shows/provides/reveals/proves, that you have missed the whole point.

[phkrause]

You miss the point where quoting Romans 2:13 and then signing my name to it as you are doing above - is not proof that I am a Bible writer or that I am the author of Romans 2:13 instead of God.

Your argument is with the text - so you sign my name to it.

in Christ,

Bob

That seems to be happening quite a bit Bob

[Guest]

No, Bob insists that "the doers of the law will be justified". What have I missed?

You've missed quite a bit.

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Jas 2:24 You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It looks like Bob is not the only one insisting that. He seems to be in good company.

Actually I think Bob got the whole idea from these guys, truth be known. So it's really not accurate to say "Bob insists".

)

[phkrause]

Actually I think Bob got the whole idea from these guys, truth be known. So it's really not accurate to say "Bob insists".)

Exactly

[BobRyan]

You miss the point where quoting Romans 2:13 and then signing my name to it as you are doing above - is not proof that I am a Bible writer or that I am the author of Romans 2:13 instead of God.

Your argument is with the text - so you sign my name to it.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No, Bob insists that "the doers of the law will be justified". What have I missed?

You've missed quite a bit.

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Jas 2:24 You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It looks like Bob is not the only one insisting that. He seems to be in good company.

Actually I think Bob got the whole idea from these guys, truth be known. So it's really not accurate to say "Bob insists".

)

Well, I did find this:

"Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of the law by carrying them out." [Deuteronomy 27:26]

I guess you got me....