Football and Adventism

[Guest]

Are you a sports fan?

Not really, no.

See some previous posts, if you want to show that I am guilty of not following everything she wrote, to the letter. Don't be so lazy.

[Robert]

[BobRyan]

You don't have to say that you reject the writings, in order to make them of none effect. All you have to do is be selective, or pick and choose which parts you will follow, and which parts not.

Indeed - as someone has already stated on this thread - they ignore whatever they find that cuts across a personal preference.

As we all know - that is not even remotely objective exegesis when it comes to the statements that God is making to His prophets.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

Indeed - as someone has already stated on this thread - they ignore whatever they find that cuts across a personal preference.

As we all know - that is not even remotely objective exegesis when it comes to the statements that God is making to His prophets.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Indeed - as someone has already stated on this thread - they ignore whatever they find that cuts across a personal preference.

As we all know - that is not even remotely objective exegesis when it comes to the statements that God is making to His prophets.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't find that to be true at all. I find that most are sincere Christians who are seeking God's truth. They just have different interpretations --- just like what we find here on this forum. I believe that most here are sincere.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Indeed - as someone has already stated on this thread - they ignore whatever they find that cuts across a personal preference.

As we all know - that is not even remotely objective exegesis when it comes to the statements that God is making to His prophets.

[BobRyan]

Now that was an interesting question.

And the answer?

crickets...crickets...

[BobRyan]

So now we come to that time of year when that which God has expressly condemned is to be promoted from the pulpit as if it is a good thing.

For example - God's messages to us often place football in the same category with boxing and gambling on horses and condemns them both.

As noted around page 1 - I did find this quote --

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Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

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But there is also another one for "football" -

Some of the most popular amusements, such as football and boxing, have become schools of brutality. They are developing the same characteristics as did the games of ancient Rome. The love of domination, the pride in mere brute force, the reckless disregard of life, are exerting upon the youth a power to demoralize that is appalling. {AH 500.3}

Which appears to go along with this --

I could refer to chapter after chapter of the Old Testament Scriptures that contain great encouragement. These Scriptures are a treasure house of precious pearls, and all need them. How much time is spent by intelligent human beings in horse racing, cricket matches, and ball playing! But will indulgence in these sports give men a desire to know truth and righteousness? Will it keep God in their thoughts? Will it lead them to inquire, How is it with my soul? {CT 456.1}

All the powers of Satan are set in operation to hold the attention to frivolous amusements, and he is gaining his object. He is interposing his devisings between God and the soul. He will manufacture diversions to keep men from thinking about God. The world, filled with sport and pleasure loving, is always thirsting for some new interest; but how little time and thought are given to the Creator of the heavens and the earth! {CT 456.2}

Among the youth the passion for football games and other kindred selfish gratifications have been misleading in their influence. Watchfulness and prayer and daily consecration to God have not been maintained. Converse, communion with God, is life to the soul. The light has been beclouded, and it was well pleasing to Satan to have the impression go forth that notwithstanding the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit in behalf of our institutions of learning, and the office of publication and the church, they fell back to be overcome by temptation. Satan and evil workers cast reflection upon God, and His name has been dishonored.... {6MR 127.1}

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Are we seeing the results of this in our churches today?

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

So now we come to that time of year when that which God has expressly condemned is to be promoted from the pulpit as if it is a good thing.

That should never, ever, ever, be done. It is not a good thing to do. (promoting football from the pulpit)

[cricket]

New to this thread, but having read 17 pages of other's opinions, I have to say I agree completely with BobRyan. There is no place for the promotion of a football game/gathering from the pulpit of an Adventist church. There should not be a church-sponsored, organized gathering of men (a Super Bowl party will typically have men, women and children attending) to watch (and cheer, grunt, ooh and ahh!) such a brutal sport. There is no reason (especially for young people) to witness the men-folk and elders of the church behaving in such manner. These are the men that women are supposed to be submissive to; the men and women who young persons should respect and often wish to emulate. There is no reason that a church-sponsored event like this should take place.

If men and/or women want to gather in their homes to watch this, this is of course their prerogative. But there is no reason at all to have an official church-sponsored gathering of such nature.

[Guest]

Well put, cricket.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

So now we come to that time of year when that which God has expressly condemned is to be promoted from the pulpit as if it is a good thing.

That should never, ever, ever, be done. It is not a good thing to do. (promoting football from the pulpit)

So has anyone here had that happen? Heard a Pastor promote Football from the pulpit? I've been a member now, I'll round it off, 50 years and have never heard that from any pastor!

[cricket]

So has anyone here had that happen? Heard a Pastor promote Football from the pulpit? I've been a member now, I'll round it off, 50 years and have never heard that from any pastor!

For several years there has been a Super Bowl Sunday event at our church. It is promoted in the bulletin and in the announcements.

In my opinion, that's an official, church sponsorship of the event.

[BobRyan]

Good point - when the church sponsors it - they sanction it.

But sad to say - a lot of Churches not only sponsor it - they promote it from the front, in the bulletin and in emails to the general congregation if not in actual sermons.

However I have to admit that normally they "know not what they do" for to him who "knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". Most of them are completely unaware that this is specifically condemned by God.

Question is - why do our pastors not know it??

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

So now we come to that time of year when that which God has expressly condemned is to be promoted from the pulpit as if it is a good thing.

That should never, ever, ever, be done. It is not a good thing to do. (promoting football from the pulpit)

[BobRyan]

New to this thread, but having read 17 pages of other's opinions, I have to say I agree completely with BobRyan. There is no place for the promotion of a football game/gathering from the pulpit of an Adventist church. There should not be a church-sponsored, organized gathering of men (a Super Bowl party will typically have men, women and children attending) to watch (and cheer, grunt, ooh and ahh!) such a brutal sport. There is no reason (especially for young people) to witness the men-folk and elders of the church behaving in such manner. These are the men that women are supposed to be submissive to; the men and women who young persons should respect and often wish to emulate. There is no reason that a church-sponsored event like this should take place.

Yet I think we can agree that the quotes recently given here on the last few pages -- are never mentioned from the pulpit, never mentioned in Sabbath School, never mentioned in a Bible study...

So do they just "get it by osmosis?" -- if so - then it is apparent that such a method does not work. I genuinely believe that most of our members and Pastors would be surprised to know that these statements on football even exist.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

I would agree Bob, but as I've mentioned before, I've been in the church about 50 years, give or take a few. Have never heard a single pastor organize a Superbowl party at there house or ever make an annoucement that there would be one at someone's house, or publish this in the Church Bulletin to go and see so n so for details. Now having said that doesn't mean that certain members have not gotten together on Sunday to watch the game together.

[Woody]

I would agree Bob, but as I've mentioned before, I've been in the church about 50 years, give or take a few. Have never heard a single pastor organize a Superbowl party at there house or ever make an annoucement that there would be one at someone's house, or publish this in the Church Bulletin to go and see so n so for details. Now having said that doesn't mean that certain members have not gotten together on Sunday to watch the game together.

My pastor did and he held it at his house some years and some years in the church.

[BobRyan]

I too have had pastors that promoted super bowl events and approved of such actions by the church - from the pulpit. In addition to having Pastors talk about their own enthusiasm while speaking in the pulpit for their own personal time watching football.

At other times they simply refer to football players or to the importance of scheduling some event so that people can still go watch "the game".

What I have never heard from the pulpit is any pastor admit to the existence of the statements on football from the pulpit - much less take the time to make up a story about why we should ignore those statements.

I think they simply don't know and are working in the dark on that one.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Here's the only thing I could find:

"There were some who were striving for the mastery (trying to be # 1), each trying to excel the other in the swift running of their bicycles. There was a spirit of strife and contention among them as to which should be the greatest. The spirit was similar to that manifested in the baseball games on the college ground. Said my Guide: 'These things are an offense to God.' " --Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 51, 52.

Guys, even though the subject is football, it's any sport that promotes "who should be the greatest". That probably covers all sports.

Here's what Jack Sequeria states:

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

[BobRyan]

Robert -

The broader principle of pride and domination over others is a separate topic and applies equally well to jobs, politics, sports -- you name it.

However Ellen White actually encourages parents to play sports with their children as a form of fun and recreation.

So I am not condemning all sports.

But when you see something like football hauled up and specifically condemned by a message from God - that is pretty hard to ignore in my book. Which means at the very least - our churches should not be promoting it in the bulletins, from the pulpit, in sermons, and in news announcements via the church email id.

What is more - someone other than me should be quoting these sections from Ellen White's writings with some sort of "just so you know" prefix -- rather than leaving our people to "guess".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Recently someone posted the thought that football is a means of saving souls for our churches. By contrast on this thread there is a statement from God to one of His prophets - that football is an invention of Satan.

Question - does the process of saving souls within Adventism call us to recruit people into what God says is one of Satan's programs?

Is that some kind of Bible principle?

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

How about, "With God, all things are possible."

[Gibs]

" God expects those who bear the name of Christ to represent Him. Their thoughts are to be pure, their words noble and uplifting. The religion of Christ is to be interwoven with all that they do and say. . . . God desires His people to show by their lives the advantage of Christianity over worldliness, to show that they are working on a high, holy plane." {AH 519.5}

Millions Flock to Places of Amusement.--"In this age of the world there is an unprecedented rage for pleasure. Dissipation and reckless extravagance everywhere prevail. The multitudes are eager for amusement. The mind becomes trifling and frivolous because it is not accustomed to meditation or disciplined to study. Ignorant sentimentalism is current. God requires that every soul shall be cultivated, refined, elevated, and ennobled. But too often every valuable attainment is neglected for fashionable display and superficial pleasure. {AH 521.3}

The exciting amusements of our time keep the minds of men and women, but more especially the youth, in a fever of excitement, which is telling upon their stock of vitality in a far greater degree than all their studies and physical labors, and have a tendency to dwarf the intellect and corrupt the morals." {AH 521.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

How about, "With God, all things are possible."

The idea that God would ask us to recruit people into a program that HE declares to be of the devil - does not fit with his "do not fellowship with them - instead even expose them" statement in the New Testament - regarding the idea of engaging in the works of the flesh - the things that are of the god of this world.

So does God call us to rebel against His word in an odd kind of "All things are possible" fashion?

Whatever happened to "By their fruits you shall know them"?

in Christ,

Bob