Football and Adventism

[Tom Wetmore]

And Sam B completely misses the meaning of the original Greek in that gospel story. For someone who claimed to be a scholar, that is very poor scholarship. There is no ambiguity in the Greek word used. It is not like the English word "drunk" which can simply mean to have consumed a liquid or the state of being intoxicated - two very different concepts. The Greek word used has a singular meaning - intoxicated. After the steward of the feast tasted what Jesus had made, he said, this is is the good stuff that is serve first until everyone is too intoxicated to care about the poor quality wine served later. Yes, it was likely new sweet wine that was fermented.

[Woody]

I've been out of touch. So - I am not sure how the discussion got from Football to fermentation. But I'm sure a moderator can explain it to me.

Regarding Sam B. I spoken at length to him at the GC Session in St. Louis. And my conclusion is that he loved to sell books. I will resist saying what I think of his theology.

[Tom Wetmore]

Something to do with continental drift, I think...

[JoeMo]

For the record, I am NOT endorsing the use of alcohol in any way. Someone asked for an example of Jesus ever being partying just for the sake of the party (as in "why would Jesus ever go to a Super Bowl party?"). The Wedding Feast at Cana was my proposed example from scripture - that's all.

If someone can explain how John 2 can be taken any other way than that Jesus made more wine for people who were already loaded, let me know.(biblically, please) let me know. I'm open to debate.

Quite honestly, the wedding feast at Cana as I depict it makes Jesus all that much more attractive to me! He must be a fun God!

[BobRyan]

For the record, I am NOT endorsing the use of alcohol in any way. Someone asked for an example of Jesus ever being partying just for the sake of the party (as in "why would Jesus ever go to a Super Bowl party?"). The Wedding Feast at Cana was my proposed example from scripture - that's all.

In Gen 2 we have a wedding as something invented by God.

None of the quotes I found - stated that "marriage was invented by Satan".

The idea the Jesus affirms and engaged in what God created affirmed provided and approved of - (no alcohol and all)

Is a far cry from - (ok so now let's take something that God says is of the devil and also engage in that as if we do it "for Jesus".)

I think we all can see that much.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Recall that we are talking about something that Jesus claims is one of Satan's programs and is grouped in with boxing and other such activities.

Bob, can you please provide the scripture verse where this is found? I looked all through my New Testament and Strong's Concordance; and couldn't find it.

[JoeMo]

Bob,

Quote:

Again - I was thinking that this is the part that we all knew.

You keep saying stuff like this - "we all know/knew". Pardon my ignorance; but I don't "know" this stuff. I'd have to really believe in the primary source of most of your quotes as much as you do to "know" it. I don't really consider Mrs. White in as high of esteem as you do. Don't get me wrong - I like the stuff she wrote and she was prophetic; I just don't swallow every word as the word of God. She was never officially appointed to the office of Prophet as far as I know.

Sorry, bud - many of your quotes are wasted on me!

But we digress -

Do you think the Denver Broncos have a chance at the AFC Championship next year?

[CoAspen]

.......was digging a field the other day and came across some some decomposing bones.....found a tatered, hardly legibale peice of paper that i could barely make out the words and it said 'football and adventism' or something like that.

(true story)

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Quote:

Recall that we are talking about something that Jesus claims is one of Satan's programs and is grouped in with boxing and other such activities.

Bob, can you please provide the scripture verse where this is found? I looked all through my New Testament and Strong's Concordance; and couldn't find it.

Well we certainly don't want to fall into the problem of "give me the Bible just NOT the words IN the Bible" -- I think we can all agree there.

So fine - the Bible it is.

I think the "Scripture" you are looking for begins with 1Thess 5:19-20 - then Isaiah 30:10-14 where God explains exactly what happens when we choose to quench the Spirit by ignoring messages He sends through His prophets for us.

If you come to the point where you accept those texts - then for those SDAs who accept what the Bible teaches on that key doctrine - we have this.

Quote:

Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

Again - I was thinking that this is the part that we all knew.

[Guest]

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I beg your pardon - I thought everyone here had read 1Thess 5 and Isaiah 30.

Silly Bob! You're so funny! Of course I am familiar with 1 Thess 5: 19-20.

Quote:

Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt

But let's not forget vs 21 - 22:

Quote:

but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil.

If you are referring to a certain female prophet associated with the SDA church, I tested her and she didn't pass my "infallibility" test.

If you're pointing out the Isaiah scripture as a rebuke to me, thank you for your constructive feedback. Jesus loves you, too.

If you were pointing it out as spiritual teaching, I DID already know that, but thanks for refreshing my memory!

If you are implying that I apply that scripture to the prophet Ellen White, we have a problem. I don't consider her a bona fide appointed prophet. I don't expect her to be infallible. Tell me Bob - do you consider her writings to have the same authority (or even more authority) than scripture (the Bible)? Do you give as much weight to her testimony as you do that of Daniel and Isaiah? Even she said we shouldn't do that.

I think that is something we can all agree on.

Yet again, we digress.

What was your favorite commercial? I thought the Budweiser one with the young clydesdale running back to nuzzle his trainer wes very cute!

[Woody]

Quote:

If you are referring to a certain female prophet associated with the SDA church, I tested her and she didn't pass my "infallibility" test.

Amen Brother JoeMo. And she herself declared that.

Quote:

What was your favorite commercial? I thought the Budweiser one with the young clydesdale running back to nuzzle his trainer wes very cute!

Amen on that one also brother. I'm all for Budweiser also.

[BobRyan]

Recall that we are talking about something that Jesus claims is one of Satan's programs and is grouped in with boxing and other such activities.

[Woody]

JoeMo -

Your point that EGW is NOT infallible is SPOT ON.

Thank you. If only more realized this.

[JoeMo]

Hi Bob,

It's great to hear from you!

To answer your questions succinctly:

1. No special infallibility test; just comparing what I consider to be questionable writings to scripture; and deciding the Bible is right and EGW is wrong. Not a bad person - just wrong.

2.Your question about me thinking that Peter being "infallible" means that all other people who supposedly get messages from God are infallible - No; I don't think that. That's precisely why I don't swallow EGW hook line and sinker. Again - I respect her and respect her gift in the prophetic. That doesn't mean that I have to think she's infallible.

3. I did NOT make up the rule in the spot. I learned the hard way to try to figure things out on my own. I have swallowed so much bovine excrement by trusting other (non-SDA) denominations that I trust my read and the input of the Holy Spirit more than I trust someone else.

4. I never said that God didn't give messages to EGW. That is one thing I wish you would quit doing; is twisting people's words to exhibit your own cleverness and self-righteousness.

What I SAID (or intended to say) is that just because she received prophetic messages from God doesn't mean that every word that proceeded from the mouth of EGW was God-inspired or meant to be consumed by the general public. A lot of the published stuff is her private messages to other people. Too bad privacy laws weren't in existence back then. I would guess that she never meant for some of that stuff to be published.

For the last time - Football and the Church is the topic of this thread - not EGW or Jesus being a party boy. So please ... back to topic ------

Do you think the Ravens can repeat their Superbowl prowess next season; or is it the year of the Broncos? I'm guessing a lot of people in my church are gonna be praying for the Broncos, this being Denver and all.

[Woody]

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Your point that EGW is NOT infallible is SPOT ON.

Thanks, Woody. I know you and I are not the only SDAs out there who have moderate positions on EGW. I know there are a lot of fellow believers out there who find her inspired but not infallible. If only people would realize that EGW being infallible is NOT part of the 28 Fundamentals. We are required to believe to be SDA. Prophetic - yes; infallible - no.

[Woody]

Quote:

Your point that EGW is NOT infallible is SPOT ON.

Thanks, Woody. I know you and I are not the only SDAs out there who have moderate positions on EGW. I know there are a lot of fellow believers out there who find her inspired but not infallible. If only people would realize that EGW being infallible is NOT part of the 28 Fundamentals. We are required to believe to be SDA. Prophetic - yes; infallible - no.

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,

It's great to hear from you!

To answer your questions succinctly:

1. No special infallibility test; just comparing what I consider to be questionable writings to scripture; and deciding the Bible is right and EGW is wrong.

[BobRyan]

The Greek word used has a singular meaning - intoxicated.

[BobRyan]

BobRyan,

How do you explain Jesus making a lot more wine for people who were already drunk and the wedding feast in Cana.

Don't tell me "it wasn't wine; it was grape juice"; I don't buy it. The euphanism "after the guests have had too much to drink" ("when men have well drunk" from the KJV) in John 2:10 means they were already loaded - look at the Greek.

As noted in my prior post - your assumption is incredibly mistaken on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

Source? Scholar's name?

[Woody]

Source? Scholar's name?

BTW - what defines a scholar. What is the definition of a scholar. Who makes such determination?

[BobRyan]

Really? You guys don't recognize that scholar?

Tell me it aint so!!

Is this a trick?

[JoeMo]

I

Quote:

f you found that the quotes about football and boxing and horse racing are confined to some private letter and limited to personal opinion - please show it, because at this point you are leaving the impression that you simply reject any message from God that does not fit with our preference - which I am sure you would not intend - so providing some evidence to the contrary would be nice ... about now.

Hey Bob,

As much as I would simply love to continue this debate, I will never win with you. I'm not even gonna try. BTW - I doubt that you will never convince me otherwise, either. It's not about winning; it's about faith. You go on ahead believing your way; and I'll go on believing my way. Blessings to you, bro. Football season starts again next season. See ya then.

BTW - the topic of this thread is FOOTBALL and Adventism - not a debate about EGW.

Who do you think is a better QB - Joe Montana, John Elway, or Peyton Manning? Roger Staubach from the Dallas Cowboys about a million years ago wasn't bad, either.