Homosexuality - a moral issue?

[Twilight II]

A simple answer to all those questions lies in one's belief or hope about whether or not there is or isn't an objective Judge Who will judge objectively on an objective standard of law which has been objectively understood by those who are judged.Otherwise it's probably an exercise in futility. Two different worldviews in which never the twain shall meet.

Indeed.

But you also have to show that they are building their worldview on shifting sand.

Not on the solid rock. :-)

[Twilight II]

If the "gospel of the kingdom of God" is about repenting of behaviors, then pharasees should have the first place among the redeemed...But if the Gospel of the kingdom of God is about relationships, and friendships and reconciling man to God thru the relationship of being a friend, emphasising behavior becomes dysfunctional in any relationship. Friendship seeks the betterment of another person rather than the boundarys of exclusion....it is to awaken trust within another, of learning to love better than any plain person can....

This is why God called Abraham His friend...a high honor....one for all of us to achieve. The goal of friendship is to make friends, obviously....not to limit another, but to seek out those good parts of yourself and share them with other....Salvation is automatic, and the sin problem is totally that which God controls within us..

To emphasis that our relationship is based upon behaviors, that we need to stop doing [insert behavior/sin of choice]

shows that our hearts are still of stone....

The principles of reconciling another to God does not start out with " You sinner! You're going to hell!"....that just doesn't endear a person to God, nor does God live up to His name as a "Friend of sinners"...It is NOT our responsibility to force someone to listen to us about God, nor is it our responsibility to tell everyone that they are going to Hell...It is our responsibility to tell everyone just how good it is to know Jesus, and what a good friend He is...

To do any less is to tarnish the principles of holding others in a higher esteem...a betrayal of Christ's friendship...

You are setting up a strawman here.

You are arguing that to point out someones sins is not an act of friendship.

Yet Jesus said to Mary:

Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more...

According to your argument, Jesus was doing it wrong...

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Why would you want to hug them in their sin, when you could help them to overcome their sin?

Where did I ever say I would "hug them"? Now that I think about it, if they needed a hug, I would would hug them.

FYI, our congregation has two LGBT's who are no longer practicing (they are still attracted to the same gender; they just don't fall for the temptation any more). Not because we "scared" them into submission to God's law, but because we accepted them as family and welcomed open discussion of their issues during testimony time. One has even married; and is trying to start a family

[JoeMo]

Quote:

You believe that when someone invites you to abandon the basis of your worldview, the Bible, and step onto their gound of feigned neutrality, you should?

You're right - "abandon" is too strong of a word. Out of necessity, the bible needs to be set aside as a source of authority if you are talking with people who don't accept that premise. That's why I don't understand your discussion with Empty Cross. Your position makes no sense at all because you are claiming an authority that EC doesn't recognize as absolute.

Besides, aren't we asking other cultures to do the exact same thing (abandon the basis of their world view) when we present the gospel to folks that have no concept whatsoever of Jesus and Christianity? Shouldn't we care about what others say as much as we want them to care about what we say? Something about "do unto others" and "reap what you sow"...?

[debbym]

twilight,

you see can speak in pure mercy and love and power as Jesus did, then i should think you would be able to speak to someone their sin, and your word would also at the very same time speak the love and mercy and graciousness of the life giving authority of God over the power of sin and death, and your labors would bring life from heaven to those you speak to.

but if you cannot do that, then it is ill advised for you to go around speaking peoples sin to them. if you do so you are then meddling in the burden of sin that they carry, and that Christ is carrying for them and so increase Christs burden. God alone, through Christ and through the Spirit can reveal the deception of sin and the revelation of mercy and authority over sin to set people free to worship and praise and serve their Creator in joy and freedom.

you are a witness of the saving power of Christ to save you from your sin, and it is yours to freely, openly and abundantly, confess your weaknesses, sin and failings, not the weaknesses, sin and failings of others. and to show the praises of your Redeemer who has saved you from your certain death, and utter degradation.

This is the moral issue, will you reveal the love of God for those around you, or will you be busy condemning their sin. No one is lost because we are great sinners, whatever sin has entangled us. We are lost or saved because of what we will do with the Grace of God towards us.

debjm

[Woody]

Well debjm -

I believe God is even powerful enough to save someone as judgmental as Twilight. That is just how powerful He is. I'm praying He does it quickly - as I am not so sure just how long the saints can endure what we are reading from him.

[debbym]

yes. agreed, twilight is beloved of God as we all are.

i have been judgmental, and a real barrier to others and to my own walk with God. and it was not an easy place to shift from. God help those i was putting down and insisting on how wrong they were.

i can easily fall into my self righteous airs, so please tap me if you see this happening.

twilight please forgive me if i have left you feeling condemned.

deb

[JoeMo]

Quote:

i can easily fall into my self righteous airs, so please tap me if you see this happening.

twilight please forgive me if i have left you feeling condemned.

debjm - I've said it before - you are a gem. Your posts almost always reflect what I perceive to be God's word; yet you are gentle, loving and vulnerable - all worthy traits.

[Twilight II]

yes. agreed, twilight is beloved of God as we all are.

i have been judgmental, and a real barrier to others and to my own walk with God. and it was not an easy place to shift from. God help those i was putting down and insisting on how wrong they were.

i can easily fall into my self righteous airs, so please tap me if you see this happening.

twilight please forgive me if i have left you feeling condemned.

deb

No problem, I appreciate that this is a very emotional subject.

But I do not think you really understand what I have been saying at this point. :-)

[Gail]

Quote:

i can easily fall into my self righteous airs, so please tap me if you see this happening.

twilight please forgive me if i have left you feeling condemned.

debjm - I've said it before - you are a gem. Your posts almost always reflect what I perceive to be God's word; yet you are gentle, loving and vulnerable - all worthy traits.

[phkrause]

Here is the thing Twilight. Lying, stealing, cheating on your spouse etc........ these things are not hard wired into peoples DNA, its not part of their chemical make up. For many gay people, being gay is WHAT they are. They can no more change that than grow another arm.

Take for example our friend John317. I have seen or talked to few people more in love with their God, having turned their entire being over to their God more than this man. He has managed to live a straight life, is married and has children. Yet by his own admission he needs to stay away from gay people for the most part because he knows he will want to live that way again. His examples have been posted many times. He is still gay. Your God never cleansed him of that. At best, when John was convinced that he needed to quit living a gay lifestyle maybe God helped give him strength to go forward with his convictions. But he never altered Johns physical makeup to make it so he is not attracted to men.

(Sorry John to drag you into this)

Homosexuality is a different beast than all the other listed things. Its not a mental disorder like being attracted to animals, little kids etc. Those things can be dealt with in therapy. Its an actual physical thing.

I understand what your getting at. I have a problem with that though. Homosexuality, like alcoholism, drug addiction, etc., etc., etc., will always be gay, an alcoholic, etc. what's being said is that as we give ourselves to Jesus Christ he will help us overcome these problems, diease's, or whatever we want to call them, but we need to do this every single day. Just as John has mention time and time again, that he stays away from things that can trigger his homosexualism, so do alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. We need to be in consent communication with God each and every day. That goes for other problems as well, stealing, hating others, pornography, sex addicts, etc. All these need to be overcome and the only way is by constant prayer and communication with God, each and every day. Allowing him to come into our lives and leading. I know many gays that are just like John. So all that's being said is that it can be controlled just like any other sin.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

we give ourselves to Jesus Christ he will help us overcome these problems, diease's, or whatever we want to call them, but we need to do this every single day.

You make it sound easy. Jesus/Holy Spirit may give you minute-by-minute continuous power to overcome, but (to my knowledge), He doesn't take away the history. My "pet" sins are/were fun; and the only way I can overcome is by staying away. When I don't stay away, or when my weakness comes to me, sometimes I give in. That doesn't mean I'm happy about doing so. Sometimes, I don't hit the mark. I need a Savior or I am doomed (whatever that means to anyone - not just Christians). Who the heck am I to even assume to call someone else a sinner or to rebuke someone for something outside of my "moral circle"? I know NOTHING of their history or of their heart. I don't want to judge anyone lest I be judged. You know, the old "take the beam out of your own eye" thing.

[M. T. Cross]

As far as the legal recognition of gay marriage and its effect on the community as a whole.

Gay marriage has been legal in Canada since 2005. In the 7 years since our economy is still decent, we still have children, we don't have more crime, families are still as intact as they were prior, and the only really bad thing that has happened was the recent NHL labour dispute. In short life has continued just like it was before.

[debbym]

Quote:

from Twilight II

No problem, I appreciate that this is a very emotional subject.

But I do not think you really understand what I have been saying at this point. :-)

what i think you have been saying is...

that there is a God who is perfect, and self existent, and the embodiment of perfect morality, absolute and unmitigated.

and this God finds sin an abomination, basically an offense to Him, which includes homosexual behavior.

and that as believers in this God it devolves upon us to make those around us aware of their sin. It seems like you have stated something to the effect that we are to do this. perhaps you feel it is a responsibility or obligation, perhaps not, i could be mistaken entirely, otherwise the world at large would not know they are in sin.

please correct me.

perhaps you are unhappy that certain kinds of sin seems to be being denied their status as sin in the public arena. I believe God does not see it as we see it. when anyone comes in contact with God, we are all unclean, equally imperfect and equally in need of grace.

i do believe that God owns all righteousness, and all sin that is committed however much other individuals may be involved, it is essentially against God alone. Since every sin that impacts any other person also immediately and fully impacts God. But my comprehension is quite puny, and i trust a God who is very great and has every matter fully in hand.

I believe God is in an immediate sense and vitally involved with the deeply broken human race. He owns all of our sin and owns all of the righteousness in the universe. It is for me to follow His leading and to not go ahead of God in serving and ministering to those around me. I can only ever weakly enter into his love for fallen man, and enter into the work he has already been doing since the creation and the fall, and which He is almost finished. God does not need me to make anyone understand he exists, or to make anyone sensible to his greatness, or sensible to their sinfulness. He is able to do all of these things very effectively and powerfully. He wants me to be tuned and allow him to sit on the throne of my heart. And If God wants me to do anything he is quite able to make his will known to me at the moment he wants me to say or do something.

honestly i am not emotionally involved in this thread in any way. But i do believe it is potentially a very emotionally loaded thread for many others, and i would have consideration, sincere concern, and respect for that.

deb

[phkrause]

You make it sound easy. Jesus/Holy Spirit may give you minute-by-minute continuous power to overcome, but (to my knowledge), He doesn't take away the history. My "pet" sins are/were fun; and the only way I can overcome is by staying away. When I don't stay away, or when my weakness comes to me, sometimes I give in. That doesn't mean I'm happy about doing so. Sometimes, I don't hit the mark. I need a Savior or I am doomed (whatever that means to anyone - not just Christians). Who the heck am I to even assume to call someone else a sinner or to rebuke someone for something outside of my "moral circle"? I know NOTHING of their history or of their heart. I don't want to judge anyone lest I be judged. You know, the old "take the beam out of your own eye" thing.

Didn't say it was easy!

Who said he takes away the history?

Yes sometimes we give in, isn't that why we pray each day for the Lord to help us???

We always need a Savior, who said we don't????

Who's calling anyone a sinner? God is, is he not?

And last but not lest, who's judging anyone?

[BobRyan]

A simple answer to all those questions lies in one's belief or hope about whether or not there is or isn't an objective Judge Who will judge objectively on an objective standard of law which has been objectively understood by those who are judged.Otherwise it's probably an exercise in futility. Two different worldviews in which never the twain shall meet.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

from Twilight II

No problem, I appreciate that this is a very emotional subject.

But I do not think you really understand what I have been saying at this point. :-)

what i think you have been saying is...

that there is a God who is perfect, and self existent, and the embodiment of perfect morality, absolute and unmitigated.

and this God finds sin an abomination, basically an offense to Him, which includes homosexual behavior.

and that as believers in this God it devolves upon us to make those around us aware of their sin. It seems like you have stated something to the effect that we are to do this. perhaps you feel it is a responsibility or obligation, perhaps not, i could be mistaken entirely, otherwise the world at large would not know they are in sin.

Christ put it this way "you are the salt of the earth - if the salt loses its savor then with what will it be salted?"

It is the Christian that points to the light - that helps those in darkness see the difference between light and darkness.

If the Christian chooses to spend their time calling darkness light, and calling light darkness - then it becomes a case of the blind leading the blind. The Bible refers to such cases as people being lead by "blind guides".

This is what I see Twilight trying to avoid. The problem of calling darkness light, and calling light darkness.

Christians can point to the light and can model the walk of faith that walks in the light - but they cannot choose for someone else. Each person much choose for themselves as to whether they will accept or reject light.

In John 1 and John 3 - God says that the world prefers darkness.

in Christ,

Bob

[debbym]

when Jesus walked on the earth, His very presence, his very character, was a continual and powerful reproof to sin. He didn't need to say to the wine bibber, and prostitutes, "you are sinning against God you know." When they were in the presence of His purity they knew. Those that received it did, and those that rejected it did.

he reserved his strong words of rebuke against sin for those who hated him. Those in positions of power also fully experienced the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. He let them know what course they were on, and what results it was going to have for them and the whole nation. He mercifully directly spoke to those who were stepping into some serious guilt. their guilt was that of eternally rejecting the Holy Spirit. He spoke directly to Judas, and it never brought him to repentance, his decision was already made.

The word of God was sent into the world to bring the light of God's character to the world, not to be used to to strike people with. It is no less powerful through the Holy Spirit because we do not wield it upon our fellow man. We are to be wielded by the word. Jesus did not cause his voice to be lifted up in the street. He didn't have to. The power of the Spirit was great enough to bring about all the conviction that was needed for everyone to respond and make their choice. It is the goodness of God that draws everyone who believes unto salvation. As we approach God closer and closer there is time enough for increasing repentance, and deepening of confession and grasping the depth of each individuals sin problems.

i think i am done with this thread, i am merely being repetitive at this time.

deb

[doug yowell]

If the "gospel of the kingdom of God" is about repenting of behaviors, then pharasees should have the first place among the redeemed...But if the Gospel of the kingdom of God is about relationships, and friendships and reconciling man to God thru the relationship of being a friend, emphasising behavior becomes dysfunctional in any relationship. Friendship seeks the betterment of another person rather than the boundarys of exclusion....it is to awaken trust within another, of learning to love better than any plain person can....

[Twilight II]

Quote:

from Twilight II

No problem, I appreciate that this is a very emotional subject.

But I do not think you really understand what I have been saying at this point. :-)

what i think you have been saying is...

that there is a God who is perfect, and self existent, and the embodiment of perfect morality, absolute and unmitigated.

and this God finds sin an abomination, basically an offense to Him, which includes homosexual behavior.

and that as believers in this God it devolves upon us to make those around us aware of their sin. It seems like you have stated something to the effect that we are to do this. perhaps you feel it is a responsibility or obligation, perhaps not, i could be mistaken entirely, otherwise the world at large would not know they are in sin.

please correct me.

perhaps you are unhappy that certain kinds of sin seems to be being denied their status as sin in the public arena. I believe God does not see it as we see it. when anyone comes in contact with God, we are all unclean, equally imperfect and equally in need of grace.

i do believe that God owns all righteousness, and all sin that is committed however much other individuals may be involved, it is essentially against God alone. Since every sin that impacts any other person also immediately and fully impacts God. But my comprehension is quite puny, and i trust a God who is very great and has every matter fully in hand.

I believe God is in an immediate sense and vitally involved with the deeply broken human race. He owns all of our sin and owns all of the righteousness in the universe. It is for me to follow His leading and to not go ahead of God in serving and ministering to those around me. I can only ever weakly enter into his love for fallen man, and enter into the work he has already been doing since the creation and the fall, and which He is almost finished. God does not need me to make anyone understand he exists, or to make anyone sensible to his greatness, or sensible to their sinfulness. He is able to do all of these things very effectively and powerfully. He wants me to be tuned and allow him to sit on the throne of my heart. And If God wants me to do anything he is quite able to make his will known to me at the moment he wants me to say or do something.

honestly i am not emotionally involved in this thread in any way. But i do believe it is potentially a very emotionally loaded thread for many others, and i would have consideration, sincere concern, and respect for that.

deb

I think you have some pre-commitments on how someone should be witnessed to and you are making judgements based on that. :-)

[Twilight II]

Christ put it this way "you are the salt of the earth - if the salt loses its savor then with what will it be salted?"

It is the Christian that points to the light - that helps those in darkness see the difference between light and darkness.

If the Christian chooses to spend their time calling darkness light, and calling light darkness - then it becomes a case of the blind leading the blind. The Bible refers to such cases as people being lead by "blind guides".

This is what I see Twilight trying to avoid. The problem of calling darkness light, and calling light darkness.

Christians can point to the light and can model the walk of faith that walks in the light - but they cannot choose for someone else. Each person much choose for themselves as to whether they will accept or reject light.

In John 1 and John 3 - God says that the world prefers darkness.

in Christ,

Bob

Indeed Bob.

God has decided what absolute morality is and expects us to share that standard.

How can God forgive sin if there is no conviction of sin.

Some have adopted the idea that pointing out moral issues, is a sin in itself...

Absurd.

[JoeMo]

pk - take it easy, bud! My post was not a swipe at you - I apologize if it sounded as such - seriously!

Quote:

Didn't say it was easy!

I know you didn't. I said that because we both know there are people who live in despair because they hear of God taking away people's sins; and wonder why they still wallow in their own sins.

Quote:

Who said he takes away the history?

No one. Many people don't understand that giving the power to overcome is not the same thing as taking away temptation. If the temptation (mostly inspired by your history of enjoying this sin)were truly taken away (which to me requires taking away your history), there would be no need for power to overcome.

Quote:

Yes sometimes we give in, isn't that why we pray each day for the Lord to help us???

Yes - absolutely!

Quote:

We always need a Savior, who said we don't????

No one said we don't. I was simply ackowledginh my own desperate need.

Quote:

Who's calling anyone a sinner? God is, is he not?

Yes; He is. I am simply uncomfortable being a trumpet for that message to the general public. I might to a friend.

Quote:

And last but not lest, who's judging anyone?

I am judging when I call out a sin against a whole class of people, as is being suggested, without walking a mile in their shoes. I feel unqualified to judge othere because I still have beams in my own eyes - not you having beams in yours.

I apologize for my unclear post. You are one of the last people on this board I would "diss".

[doug yowell]

Gay marriage has been legal in Canada since 2005. In the 7 years since our economy is still decent, we still have children, we don't have more crime, families are still as intact as they were prior,

[phkrause]

Excellent post JoeMo, and its easy to misinterpreted what we say to each other on a forum. Its much better to be face to face, than we can see expressions, which make it easier to figure out how we relate. So I apologize also if you got the impression that you did from my post. It does look like we are on the same page.

[Woody]

Quote:

Why would you want to hug them in their sin, when you could help them to overcome their sin?

Where did I ever say I would "hug them"? Now that I think about it, if they needed a hug, I would would hug them.

FYI, our congregation has two LGBT's who are no longer practicing (they are still attracted to the same gender; they just don't fall for the temptation any more). Not because we "scared" them into submission to God's law, but because we accepted them as family and welcomed open discussion of their issues during testimony time. One has even married; and is trying to start a family