Homosexuality - a moral issue?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Do these gods all agree with one another, do they all hold to the same absolute moral standard?

Have these gods manifested themselves in reality, so that we can test them?

Do they make absolute moral claims?

If they do, please share those claims.

This line in this thread is getting way off topic and should almost be another thread.

But none the less I will answer.

The Gods I pray too - yes from all I can tell do agree with each other.

For the words of one you can read the Havamal

For the lessons of others I would suggest going to Sacred-Texts .com and looking under the Icelandic section and the Celtic section. If you are interested in doing so shoot me a pm and I would be happy to make some suggestions of what I find to be some of the best reading.

Are these pagan gods, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent?

Because to establish absolute morality, they would need to be all of these...

[Neil D]

I am not trying to push anything.

You are making the claims about it being wrong to express an absolute moral standard and that only the Holy Spirit should do that in person.

That for an individual to do that is to claim the position of Ellen White and Moses.

I am merely pointing out that that is not what the Bible says.

Because of that, I reject your argument and conclusion as fallacious.

Oh, so now, you are changing the boundarys of the discussion and making it ok to EXPRESS AN ABSOLUTE MORAL STANDARD, instead of holding the community to an absolute moral standard...Yeah, I agree, you can do that....you can express to any community an absolute....doesn't mean that they will accept it...but express it, yeah, sure....no problem...

The problem is that is NOT what you were saying...and now, you are being somewhat dishonest in this discussion..and you are too proud to admit that maybe you overstepped your boundarys....

the problem with falling into cow manure, is that it still stick on you....

[Twilight II]

Quote:

You are being arbitrary and therefore your claims hold no ground

I never expected them to have any ground with you. I am writing for all those who read. I have no doubt that others will see 'ground'. WE are often blind to that which we do. Until we take the vision and input of others - we will not grow.

Refusing your arbitrary opinion is not detrimental to my spiritual growth.

[Twilight II]

Quote:

Are you omniscient, so that your bias is without fault?

My biases are mine. I am free to judge them as I do. You are getting way off any established discussion.

I am merely dealing with your claim that I have been engaging in "hate speech".

Clarifying your definition and asking you to substantiate your claim.

You can of course retract your claim from the discussion and I will then be free to disregard it.

[M. T. Cross]

Are these pagan gods, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent?

Because to establish absolute morality, they would need to be all of these...

Every bit as much as your God is. But then I don't think your God is omnipotent......

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I am not trying to push anything.

You are making the claims about it being wrong to express an absolute moral standard and that only the Holy Spirit should do that in person.

That for an individual to do that is to claim the position of Ellen White and Moses.

I am merely pointing out that that is not what the Bible says.

Because of that, I reject your argument and conclusion as fallacious.

Oh, so now, you are changing the boundarys of the discussion and making it ok to EXPRESS AN ABSOLUTE MORAL STANDARD, instead of holding the community to an absolute moral standard...Yeah, I agree, you can do that....you can express to any community an absolute....doesn't mean that they will accept it...but express it, yeah, sure....no problem...

The problem is that is NOT what you were saying...and now, you are being somewhat dishonest in this discussion..and you are too proud to admit that maybe you overstepped your boundarys....

the problem with falling into cow manure, is that it still stick on you....

You did not understand my point.

So I will restate it.

You claimed it is wrong for an individual to present an absolute moral standard to a community.

You then claimed it is right for a community to present an absolute moral standard to an individual.

My question then is:

If you do not permit an individual to express their view, how does the commmunity come to any standard in the first place?

Denying input from community members, denies the foundation of community.

Your argument is self refuting.

[Neil D]

So you say that I should not express a moral standard to the community.

But that the community should express a moral standard to me?

How does that work?

If individuals are not allowed to input into the community?

No, I said that you can not IMPOSE an absolute moral standard. That make you out to be more than a man...God, or God's prophet...a Moses...

Anyone who does that, the community will take down...depending upon your nuisance quotient..hopefully, they will just ignore you....however, it has been my observation that some will be martyred...if they are obnoxious enough...Of course, to be a martyr for Christ, you must be at the zero or negitive number on the obnoxious scale by many a person in the community's standards...

It just depends upon the input of the obxnoxious-ness of that absolute moral standard that you are insisting be the standard for all...

[Woody]

Quote:

You can of course retract your claim from the discussion

No Need to do that. The claim has already been proven . You of course - as expected - have rejected it. And I have no problem with that for I never expected you to see the light.

[Woody]

Quote:

Anyone who does that, the community will take down...depending upon your nuisance quotient.

Good one there Neil.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Do you know of anyone that God has cleansed to your specifications?

I know of someone, but only one. That would be me, when I have confess my sins, He forgives and cleanses me from all unrighteousness.

I say I only KNOW of one, God looks on the heart and I don't have that ability. I believe I know a great deal of people who have made the same confession, and have received the very same cleansing that you speak of. It only comes by faith in God, not in myself.

exactly GoLions, as soon as we ask for forgiveness we are cleansed, but we need to do this daily. Excellent post GoLions.

[Woody]

Good response pk

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Here is the thing Twilight. Lying, stealing, cheating on your spouse etc........ these things are not hard wired into peoples DNA, its not part of their chemical make up. For many gay people, being gay is WHAT they are. They can no more change that than grow another arm.

But here is the problem EmptyCross.

Because of your worldview, you have made these distinctions.

But my worldview, does not allow for any such distinction, because no such distinction is made in scripture.

Homosexuality is not a "special sin", it is just sin and part of humanities sinful nature.

So I cannot accept your argument based on this reasoning.

If you can show me this distinction you have made in the scripture I can consider it, as I am not aware of any such description, I have to reject your argument as one inconsistent with the stated position of God through His servants in the Bible.

I have to agree here, as its mentioned in the NT, if we break one commandment, it tells us we've broken all?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Are these pagan gods, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent?

Because to establish absolute morality, they would need to be all of these...

Every bit as much as your God is. But then I don't think your God is omnipotent......

So lets examine that.

You say that your gods are equal to God.

And that neither are omnipotent.

Now if your gods are not all powerful, how can they define an absolute moral standard.

After all if they are not all powerful, they do not have all authority.

Therefore they cannot decree an absolute moral standard.

So in my worldview, my God is all powerful, all present and all knowing.

Which is the only logical basis for explaining the idea of absolute moral standards that we instinctively try to use.

In your worldview, they are not all powerful so your worldview cannot account for absolute moral standards.

Therefore, to use them, you have to borrow the Christian concept of God, whilst denying Him and His authority.

And the Bible states that men know the God that is all knowing, all powerful and all present, that He has revealed and is revealing Himself to them, but that they deny Him because of their love of sin.

The proof of this?

The universe could not even exist without the Christian God, logically, scientifically or morally.

Unless you can provide a means for absolute moral standards, logic and science, I cannot see how this biblical truth can be refuted.

[phkrause]

I did not make the statement, John did.

With that in mind...

So do you think this statement from John was just his "theory"?

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Couldn't have said it any better, at that moment that we confess, we are forgiven of all unrighteousness.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

So you say that I should not express a moral standard to the community.

But that the community should express a moral standard to me?

How does that work?

If individuals are not allowed to input into the community?

No, I said that you can not IMPOSE an absolute moral standard. That make you out to be more than a man...God, or God's prophet...a Moses...

Anyone who does that, the community will take down...depending upon your nuisance quotient..hopefully, they will just ignore you....however, it has been my observation that some will be martyred...if they are obnoxious enough...Of course, to be a martyr for Christ, you must be at the zero or negitive number on the obnoxious scale by many a person in the community's standards...

It just depends upon the input of the obxnoxious-ness of that absolute moral standard that you are insisting be the standard for all...

An appeal to the moral authority of this community and how you perceive it agrees with you does not make you right.

If this community wanted to inflict punishment on me for expressing my views, then I would ask for what crime am I being charged?

Obnoxiousness?

Is that your charge?

Why am I being obnoxious?

Because I disagree with you?

Away from the ad hominem for a moment and back to the discussion:

You seem to be confusing Gods moral standard with mine.

Then insisting I should not insist on Gods moral standard.

I am not arguing my own subjective moral standards, I am presenting Gods.

So the question is, do you think God has the right to impose a moral standard on a community?

[Neil D]

You did not understand my point.

So I will restate it.

You claimed it is wrong for an individual to present an absolute moral standard to a community.

You then claimed it is right for a community to present an absolute moral standard to an individual.

My question then is:

If you do not permit an individual to express their view, how does the commmunity come to any standard in the first place?

Denying input from community members, denies the foundation of community.

Your argument is self refuting.

Not so...You are changing the boundardys of the discussion...

You insist that YOU IMPOSE a set of absolute moral standards upon the community. You want them to adopt it...they are not going to...You insist that you are correct, and that it is God's will...It says so in the bible... and that the community follow God or the Bible...but it MUST follow God's will...."Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination before God."

The reality is that the community doesn't want to kill the person, a homosexual. It prefers a less non-life threatening method that doesn't involve destroying a person.

So, let's say you get your way.... what happens if they decide they agree with you? What happens to the homosexual who will not repent of his "evil" ways? What do you do then? You decide...What happens now?

[Woody]

Good Post Neil

[Neil D]

I am not arguing my own subjective moral standards, I am presenting Gods.

So the question is, do you think God has the right to impose a moral standard on a community?

you are making the same mistake...YOU are SPEAKING for GOD. It is your understanding of the bible....YOU point out the verses that impress you that it is GOD'S ABSOLUTE MORAL STANDARD. Even though there are others who are equally qualified who differ on your interpretation...

It is YOU who FORCABLY INSIST that the community adopt THE MORAL STANDARDS which you believe to be God's..

And no, God doesn't impose a moral standard on a community...He teaches it individually....not thru a community...It is only thru individuals that community is made up....and individuals can come to a consensus but only when they have been taught by the Master Teacher....

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

You did not understand my point.

So I will restate it.

You claimed it is wrong for an individual to present an absolute moral standard to a community.

You then claimed it is right for a community to present an absolute moral standard to an individual.

My question then is:

If you do not permit an individual to express their view, how does the commmunity come to any standard in the first place?

Denying input from community members, denies the foundation of community.

Your argument is self refuting.

Not so...You are changing the boundardys of the discussion...

You insist that YOU IMPOSE a set of absolute moral standards upon the community. You want them to adopt it...they are not going to...You insist that you are correct, and that it is God's will...It says so in the bible... and that the community follow God or the Bible...but it MUST follow God's will...."Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination before God."

The reality is that the community doesn't want to kill the person, a homosexual. It prefers a less non-life threatening method that doesn't involve destroying a person.

So, let's say you get your way.... what happens if they decide they agree with you? What happens to the homosexual who will not repent of his "evil" ways? What do you do then? You decide...What happens now?

So many strawmen here I don't know where to start.

1. I am not presenting my own moral standard regarding homosexuality, I am presenting what God has revealed.

2. The idea that someone wants to kill homosexuals has never been stated.

3. The strawman I am in judgement of homosexuals, I am not, God is, my duty is to help all sinners realise they are rejecting the God that can save them from their sin.

You keep attributing to me the attributes of God.

Whilst one might be tempted to be honored by this, I have to reject it on the firm basis that I am not God, never have claimed to be, or want that responsibility...

Please keep it to the discussion Neil, this is not about my view of homosexuality, it is about Gods moral view of homosexuality.

And whether God has an absolute standard in the first place...

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I am not arguing my own subjective moral standards, I am presenting Gods.

So the question is, do you think God has the right to impose a moral standard on a community?

you are making the same mistake...YOU are SPEAKING for GOD. It is your understanding of the bible....YOU point out the verses that impress you that it is GOD'S ABSOLUTE MORAL STANDARD. Even though there are others who are equally qualified who differ on your interpretation...

It is YOU who FORCABLY INSIST that the community adopt THE MORAL STANDARDS which you believe to be God's..

And no, God doesn't impose a moral standard on a community...He teaches it individually....not thru a community...It is only thru individuals that community is made up....and individuals can come to a consensus but only when they have been taught by the Master Teacher....

You state that I am speaking for God and it is wrong.

Whilst at the same time, stating that your interpretation of the scriptures is sound and by implication speaking for God.

Do you really want to go down that rabbit hole Neil? :-)

[Twilight II]

I know you think you are right and I am wrong Neil.

But you have to argue that case, not just keep claiming it.

That is just an arbitrary appeal to your own subjective authority.

You claimed God does not view homosexuality as an abomination.

I pointed out, that that is exactly what the scripture states.

You concluded that I am then misinterpreting the scriptures, (whilst also insinuating the idea that I am a vicious monster that is out to persecute all homosexuals), without ever explaining how you have come to your own position of authority, whilst denying the scripture?

[Neil D]

Please keep it to the discussion Neil, this is not about my view of homosexuality, it is about Gods moral view of homosexuality.

And whether God has an absolute standard in the first place...

There you go again...trying to change the boundarys of the discussion, and now, you are adding words to my mouth..

Ok, it's about "God's moral view of homosexuality"...The trouble is that it is thru YOUR INTERPRETATION....When you have OTHERS EQUALLY QUALIFIED who disagree with your conclusion, you will be known as one who misrepresents God, and violate God's principles of friendship and at worst, spread hate speech. .....I don't know how to make that any clearer to you....

And yes, God does have a PERSONAL absolute moral standard....for the individual...but not for a community....The community can come to a consensus, but it is NOT the same as an absolute moral standard.

Ok, you got that yet?

[M. T. Cross]

So lets examine that.

You say that your gods are equal to God.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Please keep it to the discussion Neil, this is not about my view of homosexuality, it is about Gods moral view of homosexuality.

And whether God has an absolute standard in the first place...

Ok, it's about "God's moral view of homosexuality"...The trouble is that it is thru YOUR INTERPRETATION....When you have OTHERS EQUALLY QUALIFIED who disagree with your conclusion, you will be known as one who misrepresents God, and violate God's principles of friendship and at worst, spread hate speech. .....I don't know how to make that any clearer to you....

You keep stating it is my "interpretation" Neil.

I have pointed you to the fact that God stated Homosexuality is an abomination to Him.

You denied that simple biblical fact.

And then argued that I am relying on interpretation and have no authority to do so.

I am not relying on interpretation Neil, you are presenting a strawman again.

I am simply stating a biblical fact that anyone here, using reason and logic, can see is plain.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

You are denying this simple fact and claiming it is my interpretation.

And that I should not present this view.

It is your pre-supposition that is the problem, you will not allow the bible to have authority in this issue, so you want to make it a fault with my character.

So unless you can justify your rejection of this verse, your continued ad hominem serves no purpose other than to reveal you have no basis for your argument.

[debbym]

twilight you would do well to do a word study on all the sins are are abominations to God,

and class this one sin you refer to with all those sins, and then perhaps you will discover the perspective others are sharing with you.

no one is asking you to deny anything biblical, only that you get the perspective on abominations to God across the board, then see a more balanced view.

if you lie it is an abomination

if you worship God with less then your whole heart it is an abomination

if you do business with dishonest measurements or scales it is an abomination... basically sin is an abomination to God across the board.

the death penalty was once given for kids that persisted in disobedience, and for gathering wood on Sabbath, so this places the abomination of homosexuality on even par with working on Sabbath and incorrigible kids, and other sins... sigh

so why pick out this one sin for any more special attention then the others, other then your personal reactions. God loves all sinners the same....

debjm