Homosexuality - a moral issue?

[Twilight II]

i believe God is up to the Job of convicting people of what is sin and what is not sin, he really doesn't need my voice to make this clear.

those who reject God will eventually fully understand the missed goodness and mercy of God and the power or authority of sin to bring them death.

if you are going to start labeling behaviors as sin, then you have a long list to write.

let me see,

wife beating

unbelief

cheating at school

not keeping your promises

losing your temper

having no self control

being fearful

distrust in God

smoking

drinking

breaking the Sabbath

don't forget raping, killing and cheating on your spouse

desiring what belongs to others

cheating on your taxes

exceeding the speed limit

oh dear this is going to be an awfully long list

i didn't mention self righteousness

lack of control over appetite

loss of personal identity as a child of God

moral blindness

degeneracy

degradation

oh dear i think this is not going to work we can't list them all

do you want to help name all the sins, will this help us save the world?

you know we are pointing at all the weight that Jesus is bearing for everyone. Just think.

deb

So Christians should not point out sin?

[Twilight II]

And you merely confirm what I have said.

You stated the impossibility of Homosexuals being cleansed from that sin, after trying many methods.

If I have not understood your position as being such, then please state it clearly.

[Twilight II]

Neil, if Twilight hadn't already mistakenly adopted that moniker I'd swear that it was your home zone. Either that or a double up of Rip-van-Winkle.You just validated that which you tried to dismiss.It's 2013 not 1973. Equality of same sex relationships, hate speech,same sex marriage, hate crimes,ect... hello??

I should change my name really...

It allows certain pre-suppositions to be enforced. :-)

[M. T. Cross]

Here is the thing Twilight. Lying, stealing, cheating on your spouse etc........ these things are not hard wired into peoples DNA, its not part of their chemical make up. For many gay people, being gay is WHAT they are. They can no more change that than grow another arm.

Take for example our friend John317. I have seen or talked to few people more in love with their God, having turned their entire being over to their God more than this man. He has managed to live a straight life, is married and has children. Yet by his own admission he needs to stay away from gay people for the most part because he knows he will want to live that way again. His examples have been posted many times. He is still gay. Your God never cleansed him of that. At best, when John was convinced that he needed to quit living a gay lifestyle maybe God helped give him strength to go forward with his convictions. But he never altered Johns physical makeup to make it so he is not attracted to men.

(Sorry John to drag you into this)

Homosexuality is a different beast than all the other listed things. Its not a mental disorder like being attracted to animals, little kids etc. Those things can be dealt with in therapy. Its an actual physical thing.

[Woody]

Quote:

How you reconcile this scripture with your own experience should be your first concern. :-)

It is not and will not be true in my experience - because it is your theory and not mine. Since it is your theory - I was looking for some proof in your life. Obviously it is not true in either of our lives.

[M. T. Cross]

And our job is to ask. HIS job is to decide how much He wants to do in us. It is NOT our job to judge others and how much God has decided to accomplish in them.

That maybe the single greatest thing you have ever posted Woody

[Woody]

Quote:

So Christians should not point out sin?

Obviously not. That's the job of the Holy Spirit and i'm sure you don't want to start going about doing that. Whoops - you already are.

[M. T. Cross]

So Christians should not point out sin?

Now you are getting somewhere. They should make sure that their own life is in order. Lead by example.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

And our job is to ask. HIS job is to decide how much He wants to do in us. It is NOT our job to judge others and how much God has decided to accomplish in them.

That maybe the single greatest thing you have ever posted Woody

Well hold your horses - I'm workin' on more to come. lol

Thanks EmptyCross - that means a lot.

[Tom Wetmore]

As to the ability of God to cleanse sinners from sin, if I follow your argument to its logical conclusion I have to reject that any sin can be cleansed...

Stealing cannot be cleansed because it is inherent.

Lying cannot be cleansed because it is inherent.

Adultery cannot be cleansed because it is inherent.

So you create a false premise by assuming that one has to be a homosexual to understand this issue...

Our sinful nature is the problem, which problem God can solve.

A Christianity that does not solve the sin problem, is merely just any other religion.

And that is a hopeless position.

Yes, that is true, and quite frankly the message you are conveying. When you say "Our sinful nature is the problem" a gay person understands very well that it is their nature to be gay which is sinful. They hear and understand that their sinful gay nature is the problem. And when you continue on by saying that God can solve that, they want to see real evidence that He in fact does change their nature.

And when you say that if Christianity does not solve the sin problem it is just another religion. Well, as has been pointed out numerous times, if one considers the evidence that Christians have solved the sin problem, the jury is still out ponder the sketchy and conflicted evidence that Christians are any better or more moral or not sinful than non-Christians.

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Because according to your argument here, the problem of the sinful nature cannot be dealt with by God...

And that is absolutely not what I have said. Not here. Not ever.

God can. We can't. It doesn't happen now. It happens later. That is reality. To assure a gay person that God can change their very nature now, as many Christians do, is distorting the gospel and offering a false hope that destroys faith.

How do you convince a gay person to hang onto that future hope that "in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye" they will be changed, but only when Christ returns? How do you give them hope that a Christian life will help them now? How do they live a satisfying successful Christian life as someone gay by nature, right here, right now?

That is where I see no real answers from your POV. And that is the problem in a nutshell, IMHO.

[GoLions]

Do you know of anyone that God has cleansed to your specifications?

I know of someone, but only one. That would be me, when I have confess my sins, He forgives and cleanses me from all unrighteousness.

I say I only KNOW of one, God looks on the heart and I don't have that ability. I believe I know a great deal of people who have made the same confession, and have received the very same cleansing that you speak of. It only comes by faith in God, not in myself.

[M. T. Cross]

How do you convince a gay person to hang onto that future hope that "in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye" they will be changed, but only when Christ returns? How do you give them hope that a Christian life will help them now? How do they live a satisfying successful Christian life as someone gay by nature, right here, right now?

That is where I see no real answers from your POV. And that is the problem in a nutshell, IMHO.

Exactly - all the while asking them to give up one of the most basic of human needs - love and partnership with someone they love.

[Twilight II]

Here is the thing Twilight. Lying, stealing, cheating on your spouse etc........ these things are not hard wired into peoples DNA, its not part of their chemical make up. For many gay people, being gay is WHAT they are. They can no more change that than grow another arm.

But here is the problem EmptyCross.

Because of your worldview, you have made these distinctions.

But my worldview, does not allow for any such distinction, because no such distinction is made in scripture.

Homosexuality is not a "special sin", it is just sin and part of humanities sinful nature.

So I cannot accept your argument based on this reasoning.

If you can show me this distinction you have made in the scripture I can consider it, as I am not aware of any such description, I have to reject your argument as one inconsistent with the stated position of God through His servants in the Bible.

[Twilight II]

Quote:

How you reconcile this scripture with your own experience should be your first concern. :-)

It is not and will not be true in my experience - because it is your theory and not mine. Since it is your theory - I was looking for some proof in your life. Obviously it is not true in either of our lives.

I did not make the statement, John did.

With that in mind...

So do you think this statement from John was just his "theory"?

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Twilight II]

Quote:

So Christians should not point out sin?

Obviously not. That's the job of the Holy Spirit and i'm sure you don't want to start going about doing that. Whoops - you already are.

So your position is that the Holy Spirit will never prompt someone to point out sin?

Where do you get that idea from?

I do not find it in the Bible.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

So Christians should not point out sin?

Now you are getting somewhere. They should make sure that their own life is in order. Lead by example.

I agree with your sentiment that Christians should seek to co-operate with God personally, as this is what the Bible teaches.

But you have stated an absolute moral position for a Christian, upon what basis do you make such an absolute moral claim, since you are not a Christian (you stated you were pagan the other day).

You are a pagan, why would you want, as a pagan, to place your own morality on me?

Isn't the essence of paganism that all get to choose their own subjective morality?

And if you believe morality is indeed subjective, why would you want to insist on an absolute moral position for me?

I could understand you making this argument as a Christian, but as a pagan it does not make much sense.

[Neil D]

Neil, if Twilight hadn't already mistakenly adopted that moniker I'd swear that it was your home zone. Either that or a double up of Rip-van-Winkle.You just validated that which you tried to dismiss.It's 2013 not 1973. Equality of same sex relationships, hate speech,same sex marriage, hate crimes,ect... hello??

Not exactly sure what you're getting at...

But just so I am clear, anyone who takes the position that they know what God is saying, [iOWS emphasising one thing and ] ignoring other principles that the bible espouses, sets himself up for hate speech...

For Twightlight to say that God hate homosexuals or that to imply that homosexuality is an abomination before the Lord, is to violate the prinicples of the friendship of God and Abraham....that is, it is written, not once but twice, that Abraham is God's friend...and by extension, God is Abraham's friend. The principles of ambassadorship insist that God is trying to reconcile the world to Himself...you can not do that by offending people thru the call of repentance or calling people an abomination...However, you can thru trust.

To insist that "God finds homosexuality an abomination" is not a trustworthy statement when meeting with a homosexual. These statements stretch the trust of friendship to the breaking point of disbelief. ... and since WE are children who know how to love best, [that is our right and our family heritage], to approach a homosexual in this manner is to undermine the very principles and family heritage that we posses.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Here is the thing Twilight. Lying, stealing, cheating on your spouse etc........ these things are not hard wired into peoples DNA, its not part of their chemical make up. For many gay people, being gay is WHAT they are. They can no more change that than grow another arm.

But here is the problem EmptyCross.

Because of your worldview, you have made these distinctions.

But my worldview, does not allow for any such distinction, because no such distinction is made in scripture.

Homosexuality is not a "special sin", it is just sin and part of humanities sinful nature.

So I cannot accept your argument based on this reasoning.

If you can show me this distinction you have made in the scripture I can consider it, as I am not aware of any such description, I have to reject your argument as one inconsistent with the stated position of God through His servants in the Bible.

And if I show you medical evidence?

[Twilight II]

And that is absolutely not what I have said. Not here. Not ever.

God can. We can't. It doesn't happen now. It happens later. That is reality. To assure a gay person that God can change their very nature now, as many Christians do, is distorting the gospel and offering a false hope that destroys faith.

How do you convince a gay person to hang onto that future hope that "in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye" they will be changed, but only when Christ returns? How do you give them hope that a Christian life will help them now? How do they live a satisfying successful Christian life as someone gay by nature, right here, right now?

That is where I see no real answers from your POV. And that is the problem in a nutshell, IMHO.

Thank you for clarifying your position. :-)

Now let us consider your argument for a moment.

You are arguing that a homosexual should suppress their desires and live in denial to them, holding on until Jesus comes and changes those desires.

Whilst I argue that if a homosexual should confess those desires and ask God to remove them, experiencing freedom from guilt now.

Yet you claim that a homosexual living in torture and trying to live against his desires is somehow more hopeful than what I have presented.

So then I take your argument to its logical conclusion and I come back to the position that you say you reject.

Because God does not cleanse our sinful nature now, these sins are something we just have to supress until Jesus comes:

Homosexuality

Adultery

Lying

Stealing

Pride

Coveting

Etc

So God does not cleanse us from unrighteousness in any real sense until the second coming of Christ.

He just gives us the ability to suppress those desires (and be tortured by them).

How is that in any way more hopeful than having them removed by the Grace of God?

No sir, I reject your claims and place the charge fully back with you.

Your view does not supply hope, just tortured anguish for the sufferers life span...

[Neil D]

So your position is that the Holy Spirit will never prompt someone to point out sin?

Where do you get that idea from?

I do not find it in the Bible.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14:26.....

It doesn't say that the Holy Spirit will teach someone else to tell where you messed up....

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Now you are getting somewhere. They should make sure that their own life is in order. Lead by example.

I agree with your sentiment that Christians should seek to co-operate with God personally, as this is what the Bible teaches.

But you have stated an absolute moral position for a Christian, upon what basis do you make such an absolute moral claim, since you are not a Christian (you stated you were pagan the other day).

You are a pagan, why would you want, as a pagan, to place your own morality on me?

Isn't the essence of paganism that all get to choose their own subjective morality?

And if you believe morality is indeed subjective, why would you want to insist on an absolute moral position for me?

I could understand you making this argument as a Christian, but as a pagan it does not make much sense.

For starters there is no essence of paganism. THe amount of different pagan religions with completely different views is staggering.

Secondly, I spent the first 20 years of my life an SDA, and until I was 30 something I would have called myself a Christian. Much of what I say here is based on how I viewed things when I was a Christian - because that is the language spoken here.

Third - the statement you quoted is not based on any religious viewpoint. It is as a human being that thinks people should worry about getting their own lives in order and spend less time pointing out the flaws of others.

[M. T. Cross]

You are a pagan, why would you want, as a pagan, to place your own morality on me?

And for the record please show where I have tried to place my own morality on you. I have not even stated any of my own morality in this thread.

[Tom Wetmore]

So your position is that the Holy Spirit will never prompt someone to point out sin?

Where do you get that idea from?

I do not find it in the Bible.

How about this Scripture. Let's start out basic. "Judge not." "Remove the beam from your own eye." "He who is without sin can throw the first stone."

Or maybe EGW who most clearly said that pointing out others sins and faults is the work of the Accuser.

Unless you have the power and ability to do all the necessary curing of the disease you really shouldn't be the one to diagnose it.

[Twilight II]

Exactly - all the while asking them to give up one of the most basic of human needs - love and partnership with someone they love.

Again, you have placed your pre-supposition into the argument.

I can understand how as a pagan, you can think that the homosexual act is an expression of love etc.

But in my worldview, founded on the absolute moral standard of God as revealed in the Bible, the homosexual mindset (an aspect of the carnal mind) is considered abominable to God and therefore, as God is love, they cannot be acts of love.

I appreciate however in your worldview, you hold to the idea it is loving, but the question is then, does your worldview provide a basis for absolute morality?

[Twilight II]

For Twightlight to say that God hate homosexuals or that to imply that homosexuality is an abomination before the Lord, is to violate the prinicples of the friendship of God and Abraham....

2 points:

1. Twilight has never said God hates homosexuals.

2. The Bible states that God considers homosexuality an abomination.

So I am not really sure what you are hoping to achieve with this argument?