Homosexuality - a moral issue?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Upon what basis do you assert that human beings (apart from the Christian Worldview which you have rejected), should ascribe to your moral standard?

As a pagan, do you have a source for absolute moral standards?

Much prayer and meditation with my Gods.

Do these gods all agree with one another, do they all hold to the same absolute moral standard?

Have these gods manifested themselves in reality, so that we can test them?

Do they make absolute moral claims?

If they do, please share those claims.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

So, the answer to your question is "Yes, for me...but not for another"...

In fact, to speak for an absolute morality for the community is to set oneself up as God and to misrepresent Him to the community...that is wrong, and akin to the worst Sin, making oneself out to be God....

2 points:

1. You have argued subjective moral standards as a basis for absolute morality, which is of course illogical.

2. You then state it is wrong to state an absolute moral standard for a community, whilst doing the very thing you are condemning, by setting a standard for the community.

Not so.....I have argued for a personal standard, subject only to me....that is absolute for me...It is not for a community...Although while I can discuss it with the community, I am not imposing it upon the community.

However, the community holds various standards about God, and one of the first ones is that God speaks individually. To do otherwise is to set one self up as a God, and the community has the right to belittle that person as much as he makes himself out to be the hind end of a genetically damage horse....

I merely reflect to you what the community upholds....So, you are totally wrong in this area...

[Twilight II]

Quote:

If that text was the only text on this subject, then you would have a point.

Suggesting that scripture contradicts itself is dangerous ground. If read in proper context - I think you will see the error in your theories.

Since when does suggesting we should read many texts on a subject to come to a knowledge of the truth become contradicting scripture?

[Twilight II]

Twilight - I see most of your posts as full of it.

Which post, I am concerned that one of my posts could reflect hate speech.

Please quote one instance of this hate speech you are appealing to as the basis for your rejection of my arguments?

[Woody]

Quote:

Which post, I am concerned that one of my posts could reflect hate speech.

See my post above

[Twilight II]

You asked a question and I supplied an answer based on my personal opinion. Its not a judgement in any way at all. I see you doing what you think is right, and to a degree I admire that. I am simply suggesting a different approach. What you do with that is up to you totally.

I appreciate your honesty, that you are appealing to subjective moral positions.

But the difficulty you have now, is that without an absolute moral standard to impose on the world, you have no basis for right and wrong.

If morality is just subjective, then you have no basis for defining anything as right or wrong.

Which means there is no concept of evil in your worldview.

I am of course waiting for your response on this subject, as I now recall that you do say you have an absolute standard of morality you can appeal to.

So please clarify, is your morality absolute or subjective?

[Woody]

Quote:

So, you are totally wrong in this area...

I agree.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Do you want to quote the "hate speech" you have taken issue with?

To give you an example -

Claiming someone is not a Christian - just because they disagree with your theories - is hate speech. And not only that - it us UN-Christian to make such a judgment. And I hate seeing it on this forum.

Don't blame me for bringing this up. You asked for an example. Trouble is - it permeates all through your posts.

Assumption and all its resultant dangers is not by any stretch of the imagination "hate speech".

You would do well to examine the concept of hate speech and then re-examine my posts...

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

What of the scripture that says "Judge righteous judgement" Tom?

You know enough to know that one deals with the heart and the other deals with the actions.

But let us say I take your argument to its logical conclusion.

You see a man with a shotgun rob a bank, in your argument it would be wrong to judge him as a thief...

Which of course you know is illogical, which then shows that your argument does not hold at all.

Ok, let's try a different tact....

By evidence of your posts, you are trying to convince us that there is an absolute morality and it is ok to impose this upon the community. This is the evidence of your posts. I can say that you are trying to be a religious leader along the lines of Moses or EGW...Moses had the problem of messing up, "Must WE fetch water from this Rock!" was what he said to the children of Isreal when they were thirsting...as if Moses could bring water from the rock...and make himself to be as God...

And that is what you are trying to do...make yourself out to be as God, supplanting the Holy Spirit's principles of Him teaching us...

So, how do you like being God? How do you like being like Satan, craving the power of God?

for that is what you are trying to do.....

Now, having given that example, how do you feel about your calling a man with a gun into a bank a "thief" when you are trying to reckoncile him back to God?

Just to deal with the first part of your post.

I do not claim absolute moral authority in any way shape or form.

That claim is Gods.

The second part I have already answered:

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

[Twilight II]

It's difficult to communicate when people twist scripture to their own biases. We need to take scripture in context.

Indeed.

Do you claim to be without bias?

[Neil D]

Does not Paul tell us to exhort and rebuke?

Does it not say in Ezekiel 3:21 the very thing you are denying we should do?

The passage does not say that one person instructs another to a standard...Exhorting and rebuking and warning are not the same as the Holy Spirit personally instructing us...And that takes presidence over someone instructing us...Now, the HS can IMPRESS us, but we do more study on this on our own....Still, not the same as what you are trying to push...

[Woody]

You are free to have whatever hate you desire Twilight. And I am free to describe them as I have. But, I have no desire to re-examine your posts. They disgust me. I see hate throughout. I have no doubt you are unable to see it.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

2 points:

1. You have argued subjective moral standards as a basis for absolute morality, which is of course illogical.

2. You then state it is wrong to state an absolute moral standard for a community, whilst doing the very thing you are condemning, by setting a standard for the community.

Not so.....I have argued for a personal standard, subject only to me....that is absolute for me...It is not for a community...Although while I can discuss it with the community, I am not imposing it upon the community.

However, the community holds various standards about God, and one of the first ones is that God speaks individually. To do otherwise is to set one self up as a God, and the community has the right to belittle that person as much as he makes himself out to be the hind end of a genetically damage horse....

I merely reflect to you what the community upholds....So, you are totally wrong in this area...

So you say that I should not express a moral standard to the community.

But that the community should express a moral standard to me?

How does that work?

If individuals are not allowed to input into the community?

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

You asked a question and I supplied an answer based on my personal opinion. Its not a judgement in any way at all. I see you doing what you think is right, and to a degree I admire that. I am simply suggesting a different approach. What you do with that is up to you totally.

I appreciate your honesty, that you are appealing to subjective moral positions.

But the difficulty you have now, is that without an absolute moral standard to impose on the world, you have no basis for right and wrong.

If morality is just subjective, then you have no basis for defining anything as right or wrong.

Which means there is no concept of evil in your worldview.

I am of course waiting for your response on this subject, as I now recall that you do say you have an absolute standard of morality you can appeal to.

So please clarify, is your morality absolute or subjective?

My personal morality (which does not necessarily even reflect that of my chosen religion) is absolute. There are a number of things that in my world view are absolutely morally wrong. Things that there is no excuse for, no reasoning that can justify them at all. But they are things that I would put money on 90% of people sharing those same morals.

[Woody]

Quote:

Do you claim to be without bias?

I do admit to being bias for God's Word as written.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Does not Paul tell us to exhort and rebuke?

Does it not say in Ezekiel 3:21 the very thing you are denying we should do?

The passage does not say that one person instructs another to a standard...Exhorting and rebuking and warning are not the same as the Holy Spirit personally instructing us...And that takes presidence over someone instructing us...Now, the HS can IMPRESS us, but we do more study on this on our own....Still, not the same as what you are trying to push...

I am not trying to push anything.

You are making the claims about it being wrong to express an absolute moral standard and that only the Holy Spirit should do that in person.

That for an individual to do that is to claim the position of Ellen White and Moses.

I am merely pointing out that that is not what the Bible says.

Because of that, I reject your argument and conclusion as fallacious.

[Tom Wetmore]

As to my solution, it is simple.

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

And what does that mean? How does that work, practically speaking? Offering religious sayings doesn't seem to solve the problem, does it? Is the gay person that is born again changed into a heterosexual person? If not, does that born again gay person stop having homosexual thoughts or attraction toward another person of the same gender? And if no to that as well, how does that born again gay person live with that struggle?

And don't offer up the usual tautology that a born again person is changed and if they are not changed they are not born again. That is just maddening and makes the situation all the worse for a struggling sinner.

[Twilight II]

You are free to have whatever hate you desire Twilight. And I am free to describe them as I have. But, I have no desire to re-examine your posts. They disgust me. I see hate throughout. I have no doubt you are unable to see it.

So you have made spurious claims you are not willing to support with evidence.

You are being arbitrary and therefore your claims hold no ground, beyond your own personal opinion and prejudices in your own mind and in the minds of others that hold to the same arbitrary principles.

[M. T. Cross]

Do these gods all agree with one another, do they all hold to the same absolute moral standard?

Have these gods manifested themselves in reality, so that we can test them?

Do they make absolute moral claims?

If they do, please share those claims.

This line in this thread is getting way off topic and should almost be another thread.

But none the less I will answer.

The Gods I pray too - yes from all I can tell do agree with each other.

For the words of one you can read the Havamal

For the lessons of others I would suggest going to Sacred-Texts .com and looking under the Icelandic section and the Celtic section. If you are interested in doing so shoot me a pm and I would be happy to make some suggestions of what I find to be some of the best reading.

[Neil D]

Just to deal with the first part of your post.

I do not claim absolute moral authority in any way shape or form.

That claim is Gods.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

My personal morality (which does not necessarily even reflect that of my chosen religion) is absolute. There are a number of things that in my world view are absolutely morally wrong. Things that there is no excuse for, no reasoning that can justify them at all. But they are things that I would put money on 90% of people sharing those same morals. [/quote']

How can your personal subjective morality be absolute?

To be absolute, it has to apply to all people and be external to you in its origins and authority.

What you are describing is a subjective moral position, that you adhere to.

[Twilight II]

Quote:

Do you claim to be without bias?

I do admit to being bias for God's Word as written.

Are you omniscient, so that your bias is without fault?

[Woody]

Quote:

You are being arbitrary and therefore your claims hold no ground

I never expected them to have any ground with you. I am writing for all those who read. I have no doubt that others will see 'ground'. WE are often blind to that which we do. Until we take the vision and input of others - we will not grow.

[Woody]

Quote:

Are you omniscient, so that your bias is without fault?

My biases are mine. I am free to judge them as I do. You are getting way off any established discussion.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

As to my solution, it is simple.

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

And what does that mean? How does that work, practically speaking? Offering religious sayings doesn't seem to solve the problem, does it? Is the gay person that is born again changed into a heterosexual person? If not, does that born again gay person stop having homosexual thoughts or attraction toward another person of the same gender? And if no to that as well, how does that born again gay person live with that struggle?

And don't offer up the usual tautology that a born again person is changed and if they are not changed they are not born again. That is just maddening and makes the situation all the worse for a struggling sinner.

As Doug displayed earlier, Christian victory through the Born Again experience is indeed a function of that experience.

You ask how?

1. Explain to the sinner that he knows God and is rejecting Him because of the love of his sins.

2. Help the sinner Turn to God.

3. Explain he needs to accept the merits of Christ.

4. Throught that he can accept the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

5. Teach him to seek the pearl of great price, the revelation of Gods character to your soul.

6. Teach him to behold Christ, as the Holy Spirit reveals Him.

7. Be changed into His Image by the power of the Holy Spirit as you behold by faith.

8. Abide in that beholding.

Now of course, the sinner may not be able to comprehend and receive all of this at once.

But this is the Biblical map to victory.

Gods gift to humanity.

His character.