Homosexuality - a moral issue?

[GoLions]

No snark intended.

Fair enough, I was just hoping that there was book that delved into this topic in that way. It would be a very timely book in my opinion. The Good Book is good enough for me.

[Twilight II]

Sorry, I didn't intend to be dismissive - it was my younger daughter's 19th birthday yesterday and I was rushing around (doing fun stuff!) all day. Long forum debates weren't really on my agenda yesterday.

By 'intersubjective', I mean something like Kohlberg's Level 5 - the social contract. There is something essentially different about subjective - by which is usually understood an absolute relativism where every person makes up his/her own moral code - and intersubjective moral codes that arise from the good-faith interactions of whole communities and societies.

Intersubjective morality is not perfect - there are issues around social justice, for example, on which I believe my society (as a whole - I am a member of a smaller, dissenting society (but not a lone individual) on this issue) is morally wrong.

The thing is, 'objective' morality is *also* not perfect. Witness the Biblical genocides. Those are morally wrong actions, claimed to be commanded by the supernatural guarantor of morality.

I don't dismiss the relevance of the spiritual realm, not at all, but (a) there are many very different 'objective' sets of standards derived from it (which is illogical) and ( its track record is not great.

I think we are not necessarily talking about the same thing here.

It seems that you are defining the way we respond to the ideas of absolute and subjective morality.

In essence arguing that we operate on a mixture of both.

Which I would agree with and is not something I am raising issue with.

But that is not my point, my point is that there is either an absolute moral standard or their isn't, to deny that would be to state that two conflicting absolute statements are both correct at the same time.

I am stating there are two options for morality:

Objective / Absolute

Subjective / Non-Absolute

If you feel you have a third, I would like to see it, but I do not see any logical reason for assuming there is a third as there is no basis in reality to make such a claim.

If there is, then please explain it and supply your source.

[Stan]

can you also please start threads that give people hope.

[Twilight II]

can you also please start threads that give people hope.

Why would you assume the purpose of this thread is to remove hope?

Don't you think it important to help people understand that God has set an absolute moral standard, and realising such is a precondition to salvation?

Surely establishing that fact is the first step in promoting hope?

[Twilight II]

can you also please start threads that give people hope.

Of course, if you feel that discussing this issue goes against the Christian principle of establishing hope and helping people reason to that hope, then feel free to delete it...

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Stan

can you also please start threads that give people hope.

Why would you assume the purpose of this thread is to remove hope?

Don't you think it important to help people understand that God has set an absolute moral standard, and realising such is a precondition to salvation? Not if that moral standard (as presented by so many Christians, including here) outright condemns you to death, eternal death.

Surely establishing that fact is the first step in promoting hope?

Not if you are constantly reminded that you don't or cannot possible measure up to that precondition to salvation.

Let me try to put it to you simply. Most gays are gay by no choice of their own. They cannot change that they are gay. Even if they don't act on it they are still gay. They remain attracted to members of the same sex. Deep down in their heart, that is the way it is. They can think no other way. They hear Christian dogma that as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. and even Jesus saying that lusting after a person is the same as doing the deed. They are made to feel they are one thought away from eternal damnation. It is more difficult to control ones thoughts than ones penis. And they still think as a gay person.

While many Christians glibly say, love the sinner but hate the sin, most gays do not feel that love toward them from those very same people. They feel only condemnation. And that is mostly what they read right here. be different. Change that. Give them some hope.

[Twilight II]

Let me put it to you simply. Most gays are gay by no choice of their own. They cannot change that they are gay. Even if they don't act on it they are still gay. They remain attracted to members of the same sex. Deep down in their heart, that is the way it is. They can think no other way. They hear Christian dogma that as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. and even Jesus saying that lusting after a person is the same as doing the deed. They are made to feel they are one thought away from eternal damnation. It is more difficult to control ones thoughts than ones penis. And they still think as a gay person.

While many Christians glibly say, love the sinner but hate the sin, most gays do not feel that love toward them from those very same people. They feel only condemnation. And that is mostly what they read right here. be different. Change that. Give them some hope.

The only hope they have is the hope of Salvation through Christ.

Showing them their sin, so they can see their need of Christ is the first step.

Then receiving Christ into their hearts, so he can change them is the freedom from the sin that condemns them in the judgement.

To give them hope, is to show them that God can cleanse them.

What greater hope can they have than that?

To be forgiven and cleansed from their sin and to experience eternal life.

The problem is though, that many are denying that hope by teaching that homosexuality is not something of concern to God.

And by doing so, condemning others to destruction.

But as you are not a Christian, I do not expect you to understand my line of reasoning, because of your pre-suppositions on this subject which you bring to the discussion.

Which is that if someone is gay, nothing can be done to change that.

I cannot comment on Stans position however, as he has merely left a response which seems to be judging and condemning what he perceives as the tone of my posts, without rationalising his viewpoint so it can be examined.

[debbym]

sigh...

this is been an interesting and at times hilarious thread, but i do want to step in however briefly.

we can talk about abstracts like absolute morality but we are far from comprehending it to the point it may not be useful.

we can talk about the absolute perfection of God, and this is something also that we cannot comprehend.

this does not mean we don't love the idea of the absolutes and perfections.

God in his absolute moral perfection is also absolutely perfect in his mercy, and graciousness.

God alone knows the steps in the path out of sin for every individual, and it is individual. Yes there is only one God, and One Intercessor, and One Spirit that labors to save us from death, but everyone has a totally unique and individual relationship to God.

Jerusalem was not destroyed because of homosexuality, or alcoholism or prostitution or gambling, and you cannot convince me these sins did not exist there.

Jerusalem was destroyed because they rejected the Stone, and the Stone fell on them and crushed them. sigh.... they cannot reject someone they do not know, they cannot accept or reject Christ unless he is revealed.

There are greater sins then sin's of the flesh. Spiritual pride, idolatry in the presence of God is far worse. Rebellion against God is as the sin of witchcraft. The Pharisees and Sadducees became guilty of wanting to murder God. Yet they would not stoop to pay less then a perfect tithe. And in all of their belief in God, they did not believe in God at all.

There is no unbelief like the unbelief of Lucifer, who lived the closest to God, and does not believe in God. It is not the existence of God that in question in his rebellion, it is his rejection of his relationship to God, and he made himself his own God.

People do not know God exists, and they do not know the relationship God has to everyone, and his relationship to their sin. Whether anyone relates to God or not, He relates to them.

Being found in an immoral condition as sinners, is something everyone arrives in this world in, we all share it in common. Not everyone will reject the tender pleading, and sweet long suffering and mercy and graciousness of God.

Homosexuality like any other sin of the flesh can be a sin of weakness and ignorance. God alone can see into the soup of the human race and judge the measure and nature and precise extent of the working of everyone's sin. Jesus knows it to perfection because he died and suffered the consequences for everyone of those sins, and knows the exact measure of grace needed in each heart to cleanse and restore that life. A huge population of Christians raising fists and yelling SIN, will not bring awareness and conviction of sin to anyone for any sin.

When the Spirit comes, he will convict the world of Sin, and convict the world of the righteousness of God, (His amazing character of purity and love), and convict the world of Judgement, for the ruler of this kingdom of Sin has been perfectly judged and condemned, all sin is condemned.

Jesus does not condemn sinners, but individually and personally brings conviction of sin, accompanied by His Perfect Mercy and Grace.

moral issue? Is our innate condition a moral issue? Do we make issues of what God has not made an issue? Is Sabbath breaking a moral issue? Is self righteousness a moral issue?

debjm

[Tom Wetmore]

* * *

But as you are not a Christian, I do not expect you to understand my line of reasoning, because of your pre-suppositions on this subject which you bring to the discussion.

* * *

Excuse me?!?! How did you arrive at the conclusion that I am not a Christian? Simply because you think I disagree with you on this point?!?! By what authority do you make this judgment?

And quite frankly, you still don't get it.

On changing their gayness all you have is a glib "To give them hope, is to show them that God can cleanse them."

OK. He can change them to being truly heterosexuals. But He hasn't done it. Thousands of gays have tried all the change therapies promoted by Christians. But extremely few, if any at all genuinely, have changed permanently and unequivocally. Not great odds is it? How is that giving the gay person hope, change right now in this life in which they struggle daily with what it really means to be gay?

Do you understand what it is like to be gay? Are you gay? Have you genuinely listened to a gay person describing their life as a gay person in a heterosexual world? Have you tried to put yourself in their skin and seriously consider what it would be like to be mocked, ridiculed, condemned, ostracized for that which you have no ability to change about yourself?

Thin hope you offer them... Try harder.

[Twilight II]

A huge population of Christians raising fists and yelling SIN, will not bring awareness and conviction of sin to anyone for any sin.

deb

I liked a lot of your post, but I had to question this line of reasoning.

Do you think Christians should be silent, whilst secular groups and sympathisers tell everyone that homosexuality is not a sin?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

* * *

But as you are not a Christian, I do not expect you to understand my line of reasoning, because of your pre-suppositions on this subject which you bring to the discussion.

* * *

Excuse me?!?! How did you arrive at the conclusion that I am not a Christian? Simply because you think I disagree with you on this point?!?! By what authority do you make this judgment?

And quite frankly, you still don't get it.

On changing their gayness all you have is a glib "To give them hope, is to show them that God can cleanse them."

OK. He can change them to being truly heterosexuals. But He hasn't done it. Thousands of gays have tried all the change therapies promoted by Christians. But extremely few, if any at all genuinely, have changed permanently and unequivocally. Not great odds is it? How is that giving the gay person hope, change right now in this life in which they struggle daily with what it really means to be gay?

Do you understand what it is like to be gay? Are you gay? Have you genuinely listened to a gay person describing their life as a gay person in a heterosexual world? Have you tried to put yourself in their skin and seriously consider what it would be like to be mocked, ridiculed, condemned for that which you have no ability to change about yourself?

Thin hope you offer them... Try harder.

Sorry Tom, I assumed from your posts and arguments that you were an athiest. :-)

I note your indignation and will endeavour not to make the same mistake again.

--------------

As to the ability of God to cleanse sinners from sin, if I follow your argument to its logical conclusion I have to reject that any sin can be cleansed...

Stealing cannot be cleansed because it is inherent.

Lying cannot be cleansed because it is inherent.

Adultery cannot be cleansed because it is inherent.

So you create a false premise by assuming that one has to be a homosexual to understand this issue...

Our sinful nature is the problem, which problem God can solve.

A Christianity that does not solve the sin problem, is merely just any other religion.

And that is a hopeless position.

It is in fact, your position that does not offer any hope to any sinner...

Because according to your argument here, the problem of the sinful nature cannot be dealt with by God.

It doesn't get any more hopeless than that.

[Neil D]

Do you think Christians should be silent, whilst secular groups and sympathisers tell everyone that homosexuality is not a sin?

I don't hear that from either the homosexuall community nor do I hear that from the general community...

Homosexuals always know that they are "different" and don't fit into normal society. They KNOW.....you are seeming to project something that is untrue onto them...that they think it is right to be different and to encourage thier differences....I don't hear that...What I hear is "to thy own self be true" which is different than encouraging homosexuality...

Theologically, your insistence that God hates homosexual does cross the line of hate speech...If homosexuality was a top priority in our behavior, then God would have insisted that "thou shalt not lie with the same sex" would have been included in the top 10 Commandments. As it is, God says something about "adultery" which has broader implications than just sex...as if He wants us to ponder OUR involvement of this...not just our judgement.

Now, if you want acceptable ways of saying that God doesn't approve of homosexuality, you might have a case....but to insist that God places more importance on it than He actually does, shows more about your standing with God than God's standing with the general population....

[Woody]

Quote:

Sorry Tom, I assumed

..... amazing

[doug yowell]

Not if you are constantly reminded that you don't or cannot possible measure up to that precondition to salvation.

Let me try to put it to you simply. Most gays are gay by no choice of their own. They cannot change that they are gay. Even if they don't act on it they are still gay. They remain attracted to members of the same sex. Deep down in their heart, that is the way it is. They can think no other way. They hear Christian dogma that as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. and even Jesus saying that lusting after a person is the same as doing the deed. They are made to feel they are one thought away from eternal damnation. It is more difficult to control ones thoughts than ones penis. And they still think as a gay person.

While many Christians glibly say, love the sinner but hate the sin, most gays do not feel that love toward them from those very same people. They feel only condemnation. And that is mostly what they read right here. be different. Change that. Give them some hope.

How's this for hope as proclamed in the Bible? "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, Neither fornicators, nor idolaters,nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor theives, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. BUT SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU.BUT YOU WERE WASHED, BUT YOU WERE SANCTIFIED,BUT YOU WERE JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD!"

That sounds pretty hopeful for everyone including the afore mentioned gay who feels their case is hopeless.

[Woody]

Quote:

Our sinful nature is the problem, which problem God can solve.

And our job is to ask. HIS job is to decide how much He wants to do in us. It is NOT our job to judge others and how much God has decided to accomplish in them.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Do you think Christians should be silent, whilst secular groups and sympathisers tell everyone that homosexuality is not a sin?

I don't hear that from either the homosexuall community nor do I hear that from the general community...

Homosexuals always know that they are "different" and don't fit into normal society. They KNOW.....you are seeming to project something that is untrue onto them...that they think it is right to be different and to encourage thier differences....I don't hear that...What I hear is "to thy own self be true" which is different than encouraging homosexuality...

Theologically, your insistence that God hates homosexual does cross the line of hate speech...If homosexuality was a top priority in our behavior, then God would have insisted that "thou shalt not lie with the same sex" would have been included in the top 10 Commandments. As it is, God says something about "adultery" which has broader implications than just sex...as if He wants us to ponder OUR involvement of this...not just our judgement.

Now, if you want acceptable ways of saying that God doesn't approve of homosexuality, you might have a case....but to insist that God places more importance on it than He actually does, shows more about your standing with God than God's standing with the general population....

I would point out a couple of things here:

1. The promotion of homosexuality in our society has come to the place where it is so prevalent that Gay marriage is a major issue, the evidence of the promotion of the homosexual act as morally acceptable can be clearly seen. Why do you think there are "Gay Pride" events?

2. I have never made an argument stating how much importance God has placed on the issue, so your argument here is a strawman. I do know however that He calls it an abomination, you are free to quantify that if you want to, I have no reason or desire to however, as it is not really the subject of discussion. But feel free to unwrap that if you want to...

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Not if you are constantly reminded that you don't or cannot possible measure up to that precondition to salvation.

Let me try to put it to you simply. Most gays are gay by no choice of their own. They cannot change that they are gay. Even if they don't act on it they are still gay. They remain attracted to members of the same sex. Deep down in their heart, that is the way it is. They can think no other way. They hear Christian dogma that as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. and even Jesus saying that lusting after a person is the same as doing the deed. They are made to feel they are one thought away from eternal damnation. It is more difficult to control ones thoughts than ones penis. And they still think as a gay person.

While many Christians glibly say, love the sinner but hate the sin, most gays do not feel that love toward them from those very same people. They feel only condemnation. And that is mostly what they read right here. be different. Change that. Give them some hope.

How's this for hope as proclamed in the Bible? "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, Neither fornicators, nor idolaters,nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor theives, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. BUT SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU.BUT YOU WERE WASHED, BUT YOU WERE SANCTIFIED,BUT YOU WERE JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD!"

That sounds pretty hopeful for everyone including the afore mentioned gay who feels their case is hopeless.

Excellent observation here Doug.

We see that Paul here clearly states that the believers who suffered these sins were cleansed.

And that the whole essence of that section is about the reality of cleansing, hope then being intrinsic in Pauls statement of them being cleansed. :-)

Excellent argument and refutation.

[Twilight II]

Quote:

Our sinful nature is the problem, which problem God can solve.

And our job is to ask. HIS job is to decide how much He wants to do in us. It is NOT our job to judge others and how much God has decided to accomplish in them.

God has already specified His intention and desire:

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So I would argue, it is not our job to suggest that God is limited or performs a limited sanctification, when it is stated that He is faithful and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Woody]

Quote:

So I would argue, it is not our job to suggest that God is limited or performs a limited sanctification, when it is stated that He is faithful and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Can you explain then why it is that you are not cleansed? Have you chosen to remain sinful? Do you know of anyone that God has cleansed to your specifications? When do you feel that people will become sinless and fit for heaven? Do you have any scriptures to support your theories? How did you come to believe that that sanctification is an all or nothing and not a process?

[Tom Wetmore]

Sorry Tom, I assumed from your posts and arguments that you were an athiest. :-)

I note your indignation and will endeavour not to make the same mistake again.

While I accept at face value what you have just said that you will not make the same mistake again, I am not sure if you mean the mistake of wrong assumptions/judgmentalism or the mistake of saying so.

However I remain truly offended that you would even presume (notice I won't dignify it with mere assumption) that I do not believe in God just because I believe differently than you and/or disagree with your POV and way of reasoning. That is very telling! Not only telling about an apparent attitude but also very suggestive of a very shallow understanding and a complete lack of real comprehension of what others really say and mean.

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

As to the ability of God to cleanse sinners from sin, if I follow your argument to its logical conclusion I have to reject that any sin can be cleansed...

Stealing cannot be cleansed because it is inherent.

Lying cannot be cleansed because it is inherent.

Adultery cannot be cleansed because it is inherent.

So you create a false premise by assuming that one has to be a homosexual to understand this issue...

Our sinful nature is the problem, which problem God can solve.

A Christianity that does not solve the sin problem, is merely just any other religion.

And that is a hopeless position.

It is in fact, your position that does not offer any hope to any sinner...

Because according to your argument here, the problem of the sinful nature cannot be dealt with by God.

It doesn't get any more hopeless than that.

And you merely confirm what I have said.

[debbym]

deb

[doug yowell]

Neil, if Twilight hadn't already mistakenly adopted that moniker I'd swear that it was your home zone. Either that or a double up of Rip-van-Winkle.You just validated that which you tried to dismiss.It's 2013 not 1973. Equality of same sex relationships, hate speech,same sex marriage, hate crimes,ect... hello??

[Twilight II]

Quote:

So I would argue, it is not our job to suggest that God is limited or performs a limited sanctification, when it is stated that He is faithful and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Can you explain then why it is that you are not cleansed? Have you chosen to remain sinful? Do you know of anyone that God has cleansed to your specifications? When do you feel that people will become sinless and fit for heaven? Do you have any scriptures to support your theories? How did you come to believe that that sanctification is an all or nothing and not a process?

I just gave you the scripture that says God will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Obviously that creates problems for you, as you assume that that is impossible and demand evidence to support your assumption rather than accepting what has been said in the scripture.

How you reconcile this scripture with your own experience should be your first concern. :-)

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Sorry Tom, I assumed from your posts and arguments that you were an athiest. :-)

I note your indignation and will endeavour not to make the same mistake again.

While I accept at face value what you have just said that you will not make the same mistake again, I am not sure if you mean the mistake of wrong assumptions/judgmentalism or the mistake of saying so.

However I remain truly offended that you would even presume (notice I won't dignify it with mere assumption) that I do not believe in God just because I believe differently than you and/or disagree with your POV and way of reasoning. That is very telling! Not only telling about an apparent attitude but also very suggestive of a very shallow understanding and a complete lack of real comprehension of what others really say and mean.

Well after we have all accepted that I have a very shallow understanding and complete lack of ability to comprehend others, we can get back to the discussion at hand. :-)

[doug yowell]

i believe God is up to the Job of convicting people of what is sin and what is not sin, he really doesn't need my voice to make this clear.

Why do you believe that? Do you believe that it is a sin to tell people what the Bible says is sin or do you consider that telling people what is sin is the same as convicting people of what is sin? I'm not sure I follow. Could you clarify a little more?