The Trinity?

[Ted Oplinger]

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Jesus Christ was truly God and of the same essence or substance as the Father, but He wasn't the same Person as God the Father.

If what you say is true then we either have two gods or two half gods.

And of what essence or substance were they? Matter, energy of some kind, living tissue like in animals or plants? To talk about Jesus and the Father as being of some substance is talking about what you know nothing of.

Such is what one arrives to when placing a Western mathematical construction upon the Scriptures.

[Ted Oplinger]

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The Scriptures nowhere speak of Christ as a created being, but on the contrary plainly state that he was begotten of the Father.

The above is smoke and mirrors.

Sorry, John 3:16 is not smoke and mirrors. It is a plain balck and white statemant.

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Colossians 1:15 who is an image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

This firmly places Jesus among the created beings.

And what does "begotten" mean? Just what you want it to mean, no doubt. Go to dictionary.com. If A begets B then A is responsible for the existence of B. It is impossible for A to beget B if B already exists. This is really grade school level.

And such is the inevitable result of trying to make God a singularity. It leads one to the conclusion of Arius, which has for centuries been concluded as heresy.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

If I remember right Dr Waite asked, who is the invisibe God,

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

He was not a created being or a formed being, He is the thoughts, wisdom and the Word sent forth from Himself time.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Enabled]

E.G.White, William Miller etc all recommended reading the word as it simply states. Note the following and its scriptural references. Sorry for the length of the quote but context is important. Hope this helps with everyone's understanding. This was a response in the time of difficulty brought on by the Kellog issues. History indicates he became Trinitarian in his views around the time this was written, E.G.White called his views pantheistic. Food for thought!

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The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the personality and individuality of each. {8T 268.1}

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?" Hebrews 1:1-5. {8T 268.2}

God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son. {8T 268.3}

Jesus said to the Jews: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. . . . The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what

He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth Him all things that Himself doeth." John 5:17-20. {8T 268.4}

Here again is brought to view the personality of the Father and the Son, showing the unity that exists between them. {8T 269.1}

This unity is expressed also in the seventeenth chapter of John, in the prayer of Christ for His disciples: {8T 269.2}

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; that they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me. And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one: I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me." John 17:20-23. {8T 269.3}

Wonderful statement! The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one. {8T 269.4}

The relation between the Father and the Son, and the personality of both, are made plain in this scripture also:

"Thus speaketh Jehovah of hosts, saying,

Behold, the man whose name is the Branch:

And He shall grow up out of His place;

And He shall build the temple of Jehovah; . . .

And He shall bear the glory,

And shall sit and rule upon His throne;

And He shall be a priest upon His throne;

And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both."

Zechariah 6:12, 13, A. R.V.

{8T 269.5}

[joeb]

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Such is what one arrives to when placing a Western mathematical construction upon the Scriptures.

It's basically using Greek logic to understand Jewish thinking. It's not a very good idea.

And what happens when someone who claims to believe in Ellen White denies the most explicit statements possible, as Gibs does. I don't see how it's possible to believe Ellen White is a prophet yet deny her exceedingly plain statements about the Trinity.

[Gibs]

Ya can't make 3 Gods from a single God who is the one and only one there is. Ya might as well not be a wasting your time.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

When Christ is in you, the Father of all is in you.

Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I and my father are one He tells us, yes no doubt about it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Ya can't make 3 Gods from a single God who is the one and only one there is. Ya might as well not be a wasting your time.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

When Christ is in you, the Father of all is in you.

Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I and my father are one He tells us, yes no doubt about it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

And, we either accept Ellen White as an inspired prophet or we don't. If we don't understand that an infinite God is beyond our understanding in some ways, well, we end up making Him altogether such a one as ourselves. I can't fully understand the Trinity either, but when an inspired latter day prophet and the Bible both tell me it exists, I accept it, rather than look for reasons to deny it.

[Gibs]

Joeb, there is no reason for any to not know the truth of this, Jesus Himself has made it clear.

He has clearly shown who He and the Father are.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.color [/]

Joh 10:30 [color:#FF0000]I and my Father are one.

Notice He didn't say three!

Go back and read my original post on this, you will know the truth if you are looking for it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Joeb, there is no reason for any to not know the truth of this, Jesus Himself has made it clear.

He has clearly shown who He and the Father are.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.color [/]

Joh 10:30 [color:#FF0000]I and my Father are one.

Notice He didn't say three!

Go back and read my original post on this, you will know the truth if you are looking for it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this as Ellen White makes the issue very clear to me. I cannot reconcile your parsing of scripture with her or the rest of the Bible's statements on this issue. You seem to me to only take one reading of several verses and make all the rest of the Biblical and SOP statements and force your reading on them. I just can't do that. I would see myself as being dishonest with myself if I did.

[Gibs]

Ellen White never upheld trinitarianism. All the old men were not trinitarian. That came in after apostasy begin to come in after 1950 and our head men were whipped by Barnhouse and Martin out on Chapel Hill, Loma Linda.

Ellen was dead then and the last of the old men were dead too.

EGW even stated they were of one substance and Jesus did too.

NLP and SNLP came in and those that were not anchored to His Word were taken in by false theologies. All pastors and salesmen and more are trained in it these days. More or less hynotism.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Ellen White never upheld trinitarianism. All the old men were not trinitarian. That came in after apostasy begin to come in after 1950 and our head men were whipped by Barnhouse and Martin out on Chapel Hill, Loma Linda.

Ellen was dead then and the last of the old men were dead too.

EGW even stated they were of one substance and Jesus did too.

NLP and SNLP came in and those that were not anchored to His Word were taken in by false theologies. All pastors and salesmen and more are trained in it these days. More or less hynotism.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Here's a definition of trinity that I found in an online dictionary. I find it very interesting as it also gives synonyms for the word and those synonyms include the word trio which is exactly the same word Ellen White used in one of her statements when referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

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trinity

n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of one and one and one

[syn: three, 3, III, trio, threesome, tierce,

leash, troika, triad, trine, trinity, ternary,

ternion, triplet, tercet, terzetto, trey, deuce-

ace]

2: the union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost in one Godhead

[syn: Trinity, Holy Trinity, Blessed Trinity, Sacred

Trinity]

3: three people considered as a unit [syn: trio, threesome,

triad, trinity]

[Gibs]

Joeb, tell me which is first the Father or Jesus before and after Bethlehem.

Explain the fact Jesus says He is first and how that is when God the Father possessed Him in the beginning of His ways.

Tell us just who our Redeemmer is, the scripture gives it out very clear if you don't twist it.

Don't you believe Jesus when He says Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Joeb, tell me which is first the Father or Jesus before and after Bethlehem.

Explain the fact Jesus says He is first and how that is when God the Father possessed Him in the beginning of His ways.

Tell us just who our Redeemmer is, the scripture gives it out very clear if you don't twist it.

Don't you believe Jesus when He says Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

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How could "firstborn" here refer to Him as a created being if "ALL THINGS" were created by Christ?

Look up the meaning of the word "born." Try dictionary.com. The Bible is not mathematically accurate, forever doesn't mean forever and much more. Jesus healed either one or two blind men coming into or going out of Jericho. Of course, what's important is that he healed at least one blind man at Jericho. But the details clash.

You give the Bible credit for a level of granularity it doesn't have.

[epaminondas]

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It's basically using Greek logic to understand Jewish thinking. It's not a very good idea.

It's actually God's logic, on which the Universe runs. Yes, the Universe runs subject to mathematical laws, not poetry, the musings of philosophers or the blathering of theologians. There is a great hostility among the ignorami to things they don't understand.

Richard Feynman, page 165 of Quantum Man, said the following about Cornell University, where he worked for years:

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the theoretical broadening which comes from having many humanities subjects on campus is offset by the general dopiness of the people who study these things.

And this is the whole explanation for absolute nonsense, like the trinity dogma, being treated as if it had merit.

[epaminondas]

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So I would presume that it was God the Son talking to God the Father.

And this is how the trinity came to be - from presumptions and conjecture. One can't build anything solid on either of these two, one needs facts. Often the Bible is silent on those facts, leaving us with an inadequate basis for some conclusions. Had God wanted us to know those things, He would have told us.

[epaminondas]

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He is also referred to as God by God, Heb 1:9,

And in Psalm 82 God calls people gods. What's your point? The word "god" is loosely used in scriptures and the ancients understood it that way. The problem comes from using the word as a proper noun. They should have stuck with Jehovah or Yahweh. Things would have been much clearer.

[epaminondas]

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Is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ a "unity of three co-eternal persons"?

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That's how I understand it.

That means Jesus was partly his own father! This is plumbing new depths of absurdity.

[epaminondas]

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Sorry, John 3:16 is not smoke and mirrors. It is a plain balck and white statemant.

John 3:16 does not say Jesus was not created and then goes on to say in the same breath that Jesus was "begotten."

As I said, begotten is a word with a meaning. It's not just a magical sound that can mean what you want it to mean, or not mean anything at all. It does indicate the following chronological flow: not existing --> begotten --> existing.

This is not rocket science. It should be clear to even to most obtuse.

[epaminondas]

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The context of John 17:3 is that of Jesus talking to the Father as one being to another.(so far so good) The relational "together with" distinctly is not necessary if Jesus understood Himself to be solely an extension of the Father. Jesus knew exactly what He was with respect to the Father. It was a co-operational relationship between two manifests of Deity, not an extension of a singular entity.

solely and extension implies "no existence on his own." Jesus disagreed with two manifests of Deity. Jesus explicitly said the Father is "the only true God."

In one breath you talk about solely an extension of the Father and not an extension of a singular entity.

This is Timothy Leary speak. If I treat such convoluted wanderings as having any merit, I'll be going against the following advice:

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ACV: Proverbs 26:4. Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like to him.

[Gerr]

Joeb, there is no reason for any to not know the truth of this, Jesus Himself has made it clear.

He has clearly shown who He and the Father are.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.color [/]

Joh 10:30 [color:#FF0000]I and my Father are one.

Notice He didn't say three!

Go back and read my original post on this, you will know the truth if you are looking for it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

God also said that husband and wife are to be one, not two.

Jesus also said that believers are to be one.

[Gibs]

There is not a shadow of doubt but that our Redeemer was the Father extended for our Salvation. Jesus always spoke as being subserviant to the Father because like Jesus stated, He was sent forth for a great task.

The following verses cinch the fact of Jesus being sent to do a great job and when it is done, then we find, verse 28 the Father is ALL in ALL again.

For sure, for sure He the Father hasn't been ALL in ALL for ages but finally is.

People don't read these verses and comphrehend what is set forth to see and understand!

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

He must reign TILL He has put all under feet! After that, no need!

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

You see He is not to be over the Father!

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Well there we have it cinched down, Jesus is to reign until His job is done and then the Father needs no longer to extend Himself for a Redeemer. HE IS ALL IN ALL FINALLY AGAIN!

We go into eternity a thousand yrs after the 1'st resurrection and so that should be the time our Redeemers task is complete. Sin then will never rise up again!

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

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Sorry, John 3:16 is not smoke and mirrors. It is a plain balck and white statemant.

John 3:16 does not say Jesus was not created and then goes on to say in the same breath that Jesus was "begotten."

As I said, begotten is a word with a meaning. It's not just a magical sound that can mean what you want it to mean, or not mean anything at all. It does indicate the following chronological flow: not existing --> begotten --> existing.

This is not rocket science. It should be clear to even to most obtuse.

Even the "obtuse" should see this:

1) He was "begotten" when He came to this world, Heb 1:1-6; Son by appointment, 1:2.

2) He was pronounced "Son" when He was baptized, Mt 3:17

3) He was "declared to be the Son of God.....by His resurrection from the dead,: Rom 1:4.

If Christ were a created being, the angels could/would not be worshiping Him, Heb 1:6, Rev 22:9.

[Gerr]

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How could "firstborn" here refer to Him as a created being if "ALL THINGS" were created by Christ?

Look up the meaning of the word "born." Try dictionary.com. The Bible is not mathematically accurate, forever doesn't mean forever and much more. Jesus healed either one or two blind men coming into or going out of Jericho. Of course, what's important is that he healed at least one blind man at Jericho. But the details clash.

You give the Bible credit for a level of granularity it doesn't have.

If "firstborn" as it refers to Jesus beans physical birth as you are advocating, was He the "firstborn from the dead?"