joeb Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Quote: Lucifer was a created being, and in these arguments Christ is not the everlasting God with no beginning and no end, but a created being.... Maybe Joeb you would be so kind as to explain why you and many others I have noted view that to be begotten implies created. I don't see the reasoning as I begat 5 yet I am the creator of none. They are of the same substance as I and all that I have is theirs things material as well as my DNA all by way of inheritance. I can neither understand how it is so, any more than I can understand how the Father brought forth a Son in his image. But believe I am asked to do by faith and by and by if I am faithful all shall be revealed unto me. Any time you would take to answer this would be appreciated, it would help me understand others thinking more clearly. I have never believed Christ to be other than the divine Son of God yet I don't subscribe to a triumvirate of Divinity. Happy Sabbath Because, very simply stated, you do not believe that the Son of God existed before the creation of anything in the universe, that He existed with the Father from all past eternity. Therefore He had to have been a created being, not the self-existant Son of God, a part of the Godhead. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
skyblue888 Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 If Christ is not God in the highest sense and from all eternity He can not be the Saviour of the world. And if the Holy Spirit is not God in the highest sense than who or what is He? a mere impersonal essence???!! Not one of us can explain the doctrine of one God in Three Persons. We can only accept it by faith. Period. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Ted Oplinger Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Quote: If Christ were a created being, the angels could/would not be worshiping Him, Heb 1:6, Rev 22:9. Why not? If God tells them to worship Jesus, they'll do so. In all truthfulness, if this was true, then God in perfect wisdom should have seen this would have prevented Lucifer's rebellion in heaven, since that is all Lucifer really wanted. Because God would not grant that desire, only then did Lucifer start going around claiming God was unfair, and his law unjust. Such a statement as your quoted statement is just plain nonsense. Worship belongs solely to Deity. So strong is this known among the angels that twice the angel leading John in vision (Revelation 19:10 and 22:8, 9) rebukes John for worshiping him, an angel. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Gibs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Yes Christ is the Highest, it is the Father that is in Him, He is the one and only True God with us. 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Comphrehend, please, God was in Christ, Christ is not another God but the one and only God there is is in Him. Yahweh King of Israel. He came to us in the mediator He extended of Himself that we could connect to the Throne of Grace! God with us you all. The one and only God. Scripture is adamant there is but ONE GOD! Only God Himself could redeem us and forgive us our sin! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
skyblue888 Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Gibs, yours is a private interpretation. The fact that God the Father was in Christ did not take away the deity of Christ any more than Christ being in us takes away our humanity or individuality. While Jesus Christ lived among men His deity was kept back at all times for it was necessary that the Father alone should be made manifest in Jesus of Nazareth. If Christ had used His own divinity at any time, the plan of redemption would have been jeopardized. So His deity was kept back at all times and that is why He said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Ted Oplinger Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 I'm one of the very few who will follow Him only and no man. Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
skyblue888 Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
joeb Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Gibs, yours is a private interpretation. The fact that God the Father was in Christ did not take away the deity of Christ any more than Christ being in us takes away our humanity or individuality. While Jesus Christ lived among men His deity was kept back at all times for it was necessary that the Father alone should be made manifest in Jesus of Nazareth. If Christ had used His own divinity at any time, the plan of redemption would have been jeopardized. So His deity was kept back at all times and that is why He said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." sky I agree. That Christ, as a man, voluntarily subordinated Himself to His Father's will in all things is not evidence for the non-Trinitarian viewpoint. That's one reading of such evidence, but surely not the only one. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Gibs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 The Deity in Christ is the Father in Christ, there is none other any where to be in Him. Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Put this thought together, Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. They cannot be plucked out of my hand Jesus reaveals anymore than they can the Fathers, well because he states, "I and my Father are one"! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
JoeMo Posted February 5, 2013 Posted February 5, 2013 Quote: Maybe Joeb you would be so kind as to explain why you and many others I have noted view that to be begotten implies created. I don't see the reasoning as I begat 5 yet I am the creator of none. I don't see why "begotten" has to be synonymous with "created". To me, "created" means "made out of nothing - like When God created the universe. "Begotten" means "brought forth; made of the same substance". As crude as it seems, the best way I can explain Jesus (before His incarnation) was split off (begotten)from the Father like an aomeba divides itself. A created being would be a superior aomeba zapping another inferior aomeba into existence simpley by "speaking it" into being. Jesus may have had a beginning in the fact that He was "brough forth" from the Father; and it could have been so long before Day 1 of creation ("The Beginning") that it might as well have been from eternity. Someone above responded to the Question" why should we worship Jesus?" I liked the answer, which pretty much said "Because God told us to." Quote
JoeMo Posted February 5, 2013 Posted February 5, 2013 Quote: I'm one of the very few who will follow Him only and no man. Nothing like tooting your own horn, huh Gibs? It might be a good idea to re-think your wording to this statement. It sounds a little bit like the Pharisee that said "Thank you, God, that I'm not like that infidel publican over there". I can appreciate the likelihood that you are probably a better man than many of us, but it's kinda self-righteous to rub our noses in it. Quote
Gibs Posted February 5, 2013 Posted February 5, 2013 If that is tooting me ole horn for stating the fact of whom I follow, then so be it. You see it was Jesus that said, "few" would find that "strait" gate and take that narrow way. Why don't more go through that gate is because so many are deceived of men! And so I admonish all follow Him only whom is the TRUTH the WAY and the LIFE! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
JoeMo Posted February 5, 2013 Posted February 5, 2013 It's not so much that you say you are following Christ (I'd like to think I'm following Christ, also); it's the fact that you are saying you are "one of the few" who is. It sounds like you're saying "I have it right and the majority of the rest of you have it wrong. I know where to find the strait gate and the narrow way; and you don't." It's not your call - it's God's call. Quote
Ted Oplinger Posted February 5, 2013 Posted February 5, 2013 Quote: I'm one of the very few who will follow Him only and no man. Nothing like tooting your own horn, huh Gibs? It might be a good idea to re-think your wording to this statement. It sounds a little bit like the Pharisee that said "Thank you, God, that I'm not like that infidel publican over there". I can appreciate the likelihood that you are probably a better man than many of us, but it's kinda self-righteous to rub our noses in it. If it's kinda self-righteous to rub people's noses in things, it's kinda the indication of not being that much of a better person. In my experience, better people don't do this kind of thing. Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Ted Oplinger Posted February 5, 2013 Posted February 5, 2013 If that is tooting me ole horn for stating the fact of whom I follow, then so be it. You see it was Jesus that said, "few" would find that "strait" gate and take that narrow way. Why don't more go through that gate is because so many are deceived of men! And so I admonish all follow Him only whom is the TRUTH the WAY and the LIFE! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Trouble is, Gibs, the "few" you proclaim yourself to be of, are a bit more numerous than you think. Toot your horn all you want; it won't change who God knows are His...and these have no need to toot their horns. If more aren't getting in through the narrow gate. Christ said it's the self-proclaimed righteous who prevent them, and these won't even enter in themselves. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Gibs Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 It's the false that is being taught that is keeping so many for one thing of finding that srait gate and narrow way. The false gospel of salvation saved in sin when the true Gospel points the way of being overcomers in the here and now. We are saved by one God and He only is our Saviour. Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Enabled Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 The scripture is always clear when looked at in the context of here a little there a little, rather than a little Theology here and a little Tradition there. He is our Lord and our God, yet his Father is "thee God", yet Christ knows no other God besides him as he is appointed to rule in his Fathers place anywhere he is. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 6, 2013 Moderators Posted February 6, 2013 I looked at your quotes. They don't say Jesus is worshiped. Remember, the same word for god in Hebrews 1:9 is used here twice: Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 6, 2013 Moderators Posted February 6, 2013 It's not so much that you say you are following Christ (I'd like to think I'm following Christ, also); it's the fact that you are saying you are "one of the few" who is. It sounds like you're saying "I have it right and the majority of the rest of you have it wrong. I know where to find the strait gate and the narrow way; and you don't." It's not your call - it's God's call. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 6, 2013 Moderators Posted February 6, 2013 Quote: I'm one of the very few who will follow Him only and no man. Nothing like tooting your own horn, huh Gibs? It might be a good idea to re-think your wording to this statement. It sounds a little bit like the Pharisee that said "Thank you, God, that I'm not like that infidel publican over there". I can appreciate the likelihood that you are probably a better man than many of us, but it's kinda self-righteous to rub our noses in it. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 6, 2013 Moderators Posted February 6, 2013 If that is tooting me ole horn for stating the fact of whom I follow, then so be it. You see it was Jesus that said, "few" would find that "strait" gate and take that narrow way. Why don't more go through that gate is because so many are deceived of men! And so I admonish all follow Him only whom is the TRUTH the WAY and the LIFE! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. One thing about being deceived - the person who is deceived does not know know he is deceived! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 6, 2013 Moderators Posted February 6, 2013 The Deity in Christ is the Father in Christ, there is none other any where to be in Him. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5} In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. Quote
Dr. Waite Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 If Christ is not God in the highest sense and from all eternity He can not be the Saviour of the world. And if the Holy Spirit is not God in the highest sense than who or what is He? a mere impersonal essence???!! Not one of us can explain the doctrine of one God in Three Persons. We can only accept it by faith. Period. sky Skyblue: You seem to be very knowledgeable. Please answer these questions: My bible states: "one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6 Is Jesus Christ, the second person of the godhead, the father of his Father? Is the holy spirit, the third person of the godhead, the father of the first person of the godhead? Is the holy spirit, the third person of the godhead distinct from the first person of the godhead, the father of the second person of the godhead? Quote grw
Gibs Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Dr. Waite, it seems most will read into it what they have been taught or have come to believe and will not budge. I am of the fact, He says what He means and means what He says. He didn't put a twist on saying it and so don't need a twist to unravel it! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
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