The Trinity?

[Gerr]

This quote {FLB 46.5} clearly states that the Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, is a distinct person from the Father. This supports the doctrine of Christ which states that the "only true God" is the Father of Jesus Christ.

Does that mean then that Christ is a false god?

[Gerr]

Gerry, of course Jesus Christ was a distinct person, He was the son of Mary and His Father, but that does not alter the fact the Father in Him was the Deity in Him.

I wish I had access to 5th graders to see how they interpret the passage.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

God is Elohiym and this is Our Father and His Redeemer possessed, extended from Himself and they are ONE as Jesus has explicitly stated.

Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person,yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5}

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

John 1:1-3,14 NASB

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."Genesis 1:1 NASB

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

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#607282 - Yesterday at 15:54

Amen and amen!!!

God blesses!

[Gibs]

And I echo it too!

Amen and amen!!!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

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It was Jesus Christ, the Lord and God who saved the people out of the land of Egypt. It was also the Father.

Now why do they have the singular, be it Jesus, the Lord or God? Why didn't they say it was Jesus and the Father? Here we have magic again. The mystery religions are not dead. They're alive and well in the trinitarian dogma. Without magic, the trinitarian dogma can't stand.

In contrast, there is no distance between my conclusions and the raw data in the Bible:

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NETfree: I Timothy Chapter 2

[5] For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,

[6] who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God's purpose at his appointed time.

My conclusion: there is one God and one mediator between God and man, Jesus. Jesus is not mediator between partly himself (playing two roles, the mediator and one mediation party) and man.

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NETfree: John 17:3. Now this is eternal life - that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

My conclusion: the Father is the only true God, like Jesus said.

There are many more. The passages I use as facts also don't need any interpretation, as they are clear. They are also not passages about which there is a great polemic as to how they should be translated and which can legitimately translated in many ways, like the "I am" passage where the same words have been differently translated where they also occur. The passages used in favour of the trinity are often already interpreted raw data. And not interpreted in a vacuum, but interpreted against popular ideas, like the trinitarian concept. So, a conclusion is made based not on fact, but interpreted and often distorted fact. You do know about the comma Johanneum?

There is absolutely no doubt, there is a very much stronger case to be made against the trinity concept than for it.

[epaminondas]

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Does that mean that Christ and the HS are false gods?

Who said they were gods? Jesus never said "I am God." When Jesus asked his disciples who they said he was and Peter said he was the son of the living God, Jesus didn't say "no, no, no Peter, you've got it wrong - I AM the living God."

[epaminondas]

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Whether or not you see him as one god with 3 aspects or 3 gods that work in uniformity with each other I would doubt that he really gives a rats backside.

What about the second, or is it the first, commandment?

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NETfree: Exodus 20:3. "You shall have no other gods before me.

Or does that only go for carved idols?

[epaminondas]

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Most will agree that the Father is "God" or "fully God".

Most likely that's the one statement everybody agrees about. That's a start.

[epaminondas]

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And, you think ad hominem attacks makes your case stronger? Rather, you just showed your case to be far weaker than Gerry's.

The veracity of what anyone says is not dependent on the person being "nice." Look at what the person says and examine his declarative statements against facts. In the case of the Bible, against the Bible.

Any adult of about 35 who is even moderately perceptive will have observed that successful con-men are always nice when it matters and always make a good impression. This at least removes the person whom you find abrasive from the ranks of the con-men.

[epaminondas]

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Christ did. With words and actions too unequivocal to be missed.

Quote me one statement as clear as "I am God." That's clear. Or as clear as "... you, the only true God..." when speaking to the Father or as clear as "one God and one mediator between God and mankind, Jesus."

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There are other possibilities and perspectives to consider. Your second choice in the list really makes a judgmental, bigoted statement - the same spirit is evident in those words as seen in the Papal governance that you rail against.

Name me one other possibility. And didn't the trinitarians smuggle the comma Johanneum into the New Testament and didn't they muddle up John 1:1 so it makes no sense? In John 1:1 we have two entities and are then told, no, it's really one entity. A look at the original Greek of John 1:1 will make things much clearer.

[epaminondas]

The exceedingly long list of scripture references mentioning the Holy Spirit are nearly all irrelevant for determining his relationship to God and Jesus. Yes, he directs preachers where to preach, but so do various church administrative offices as well. And I said the relationship between Jesus and the Father was only expressed as a father-son relationship. Why did you give me the references confirming that? You should have given me a reference where Jesus claimed equality with the Father. The one where Jesus said the Father was greater than he (Jesus) won't do. Neither will the one where Jesus called the Father his (Jesus's) God.

A Biblical statement you use to support your point must use much the same words as the point you want to make - e.g. if you want to say Jesus is god just like the Father is God, that's what your statement must say. Why do the Bible quotations I use almost verbally coincide with the points I support? Surely you can do the same.

2000 years ago even some men saw themselves as gods. In Greek mythology gods had children with humans who were half or minor gods. In many places in the New Testament the word "god" is used in the same sense.

[epaminondas]

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But please look carefully at Hebrews 1: 3, where the Scripture says that the eternal Son of God is "the exact representation [or exact impress] of the Father's essence." "Essence" is a translation of the Greek noun, hupostasis, Strong's #5287. It also means "substance," "essential nature."

This "essence" thing is very vague. Dr Waite did point out how many different translations there are for the word hupostasis. I also looked it up, just now. Seems to me the "essence" and "substance" is more in the sense of "reality", as opposed to e.g. a theory without substance (e.g. the trinitarian dogma) which is therefore not real or true, than it has to do with what something is made up of or consists of. I anyone says to me that Jesus is real like the Father is real, I say a loud amen to that. It makes sense that way, doesn't it? Even if it points to "nature" it doesn't mean the nature of what it is made of.

[epaminondas]

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And the fact is that there are no facts to it.

A fact is reality, something which exists and humans use declarative statements to point out facts. As we regard the Bible as authoritative, clear, unambiguous statements in the Bible are taken as facts. We use them to support or overthrow conclusions. One cannot use an interpretation of (deduction based on) any fact as a fact. Theologians tend to over interpret Biblical statements and use their interpretations as facts on which they build a case. If engineers did this buildings would fall, cars burst into flames, planes fall from the sky, etc. No wonder religion is in the sorry state it is. Disused church buildings are plentiful.

[epaminondas]

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When the HS, Christ, and the Father indwells a believer, what does it mean?

Heaven knows. The writer should have used clearer language. But of course you will get people who will tell you exactly what they think it means as if that is what it means.

[epaminondas]

epaminondas,

you asked

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So, what do you think? Which way do the facts point? I know which way emotion points.

I'll be honest with you. I don't know what to think. Sometimes I pray to the members of the Godhead separately (Father, then Jesus, then Spirit); and sometimes collectively as just "God". I used to stress about which one was right (like this thread is doing). I gave up. I don't care wither it's 3 separate beings, 3 aspects of the same being, or whatever. It's not a salvational issue as far as I'm concerned. It's an interesting topic to discuss; but not worth getting upset over (as some tend to get). I don't have a rebuttal to your post. In ways it makes sense to me.

Hi JoeMoe,

This is how it works: to determine how something is (this goes for everything, not only the trinity) we first put what we want to determine as a straightforward question. E.g. is the trinity doctrine Biblical? Now this example question poses one problem, what exactly is the trinity? Now we define the attributes of the trinity as they are commonly understood, e.g. the three entities each individually god but all three together only one god, equality, etc. Now we have total clarity as to our question. Now we need all the relevant facts. A fact is reality in its natural form. A deduction or an interpretation of a fact is not a fact. One can get facts by observation, research (the Bible, in this case - the computer helps a lot here and don't forget the Internet - mankind never had so much information so readily available), experimentation, a trusted witness, and these are the main ways to gain facts. Make sure your Biblical statements are to the point and relevant to your question. You may need to check the transliteration of the original on the web. Make sure there are no legitimate alternative translations that will change the meaning of the passage.

Once you have all your facts you use valid logic (logic is how facts are used to come to a valid conclusion) to reach your conclusion. And that's it.

Take whom you should pray to. Download BibleTime or Xiphos, they're both free. Do a word search for the word pray. Read everything where the word pray features. Ignore those passages not telling you whom to pray to or not giving an example to whom Jesus and the apostles prayed. You'll have a solid answer within half an hour.

And does the trinity matter? Read the first few verses of Exodus 20.

The big thing about truth is that it is in by far the most cases not that difficult to determine and is much more black and white than it is gray.

Good luck.

[Ted Oplinger]

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And, you think ad hominem attacks makes your case stronger? Rather, you just showed your case to be far weaker than Gerry's.

The veracity of what anyone says is not dependent on the person being "nice." Look at what the person says and examine his declarative statements against facts. In the case of the Bible, against the Bible.

Any adult of about 35 who is even moderately perceptive will have observed that successful con-men are always nice when it matters and always make a good impression. This at least removes the person whom you find abrasive from the ranks of the con-men.

Ad hominem attacks are logical fallacies made to destroy the character of the opposition rather than the argument posed. Since you are so very fluent in being abrasive and slinging mud at the "trinitarians", that tells me your arguments are nothing more than the same nit-picking the Jews did to Christ. You want to believe what you want; you want to believe someone else's belief is stupid. That's pretty much your game. Unfortunately, the extent of your discussion seems to be declaring other people stupid, then nit-picking when your are called out.

I have yet to see a truly fleshed out thesis on the anti-trinitarian position that 1) fully addresses issues posed to it, 2) uses the Scripture in context, and 3) doesn't fall back to wild conspiracy theories which all make the fallacious claim God cannot keep the content of His Word true with the passage of time.

I have yet to see you, Gibs, or Dr. Waite intelligently assess the temptations of Christ in the wilderness, and other problematic situations which makes singularity untenable.

I have yet to see you, Gibs, or Dr. Waite intelligently explain the relational context found in many Scripture verses putting Christ equal to the Father, nor have I seen you three intelligently assess why Paul the apostle attributes many Old Testament passages of actions and claims by YHWH - which you three ALL claim to be the Father - to Christ Jesus instead. I guess even Paul was part of the vast, evil trinitarian conspiracy, too?

I have yet to see how the anti-trinitarian position can fully and intelligently explain why Moses chose to use the plural "Elohim", when he had the equally available but singular "Eloha" to refer to God in truth.

I have yet to see how the anti-trinitarian position can demonstrate selfless agape love to a created being without involving a created being. How can God personify selfless love within Deity?

To your point on abrasiveness...

True - some criminals are nice. Others - like identity thieves, muggers, and others that just want to take what they want while making your life miserable - aren't. There is a big difference between someone who is simply abrasive on the surface, but inside is not, and someone who intentionally goes out of their way to be disagreeable in their disagreement whenever they get the opportunity.

Rather than build your case, epaminondas, your continued use of abrasiveness destroys your efforts. You challenge trinitarians, you insult trinitarians, you think evil of trinitarians - then make nit-picky comments when the ball is returned to your court. Again, you are portraying yourself to be in spirit much more like your Catholic brethren of centuries ago, than of the Protestant remnant of today. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, Romans 12:3-5, and Galatians 5:22-24 speak of the Spirit of Christian deportment. Galatians 5:19-21 contains several of the points of character used in your posts. You may be intelligent, but you waste it on using it in such a way.

We do not have to be disagreeable and factious to disagree.

To your point on Christ...

Christ never told the Jews outright He was the Messiah, despite their constant, incessant demands, but He did not have to - His very mission contained so much proof it was undeniable.

Likewise, He never said the exact phrase "I am God". Yet, there are several places where He personally claimed the prerogatives of Deity (accepting the worship of men, forgiving sins, granting of eternal life, claiming Lordship over God's Holy Day). In one passage (John 8:53-59), Christ uses two of those three words - enough to apply to Himself the very name YHWH told Moses to speak of to tell the enslaved nation he was sent by God. Christ did NOT say, 'Before Abraham was, The Father within Me is 'I AM'". Christ made the specific declaration He was the "I AM". The Jews knew PRECISELY the identification Christ was making.

Yet, that did not stop you, Gibs, and Dr. Waite from using Christ's words in verse 54 out of context, and conveniently refusing to explain this part intelligently.

The continued insistence on the part of you, Gibs, and Dr. Waite for Christ using those exact words for a "proof text" is exactly like that of the Jews desiring Christ to say explicitly, "I am your Messiah". Even if He did, it would not matter one whit - you still would not accept it, just as the Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Another case in point: John 10:25-39 contains a verse Gibs has used over and over for his support, yet outside of context. However, the Jews themselves put the context there - in verse 33, "The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

It is the next few verse that present the untenable point for you, Gibs, and Dr. Waite: rather than immediately dress down the Jews for attributing blasphemy to the indwelling Father, Christ goes into a relational argument between Himself and the Father - an argument the Jews had already acknowledged as true (vs.33), but did not accept (vs 39).

If the truth is as you say - the Father only is God - Christ should have immediately told the truth: "The Father in Me is One" (verse 30). Anything less than this is a false witness of His true relationship with the Father as a human being. I have yet to see a good explanation for this from the anti-trinitarian position that could not be treated as you three have treated the "trinitarian" thought process.

Context is everything, epaminondas.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Well, you didn't read my posts well, Jesus Christ was not another God but God the Father is in Him, He was the one and only God manifest in the flesh.

Now if you see Jesus as another God other than Yahweh King of Israel dwelling in Him, yes it can be said you are worshipping another God of whom you know not his name.

Well there is no other God to have a name so you have a problem.

I've asked here what is the name of the God you all see who is in Christ Jesus and none have given me his name.

Seeing a trinity makes it so you have 3 Gods when there is but one, the scripture is adamant!

The Holy Spirit is what Yahweh King of Israel is, that is how He is Omnipresent.

Jesus has the fullness of the Father, Yahweh King of Israel dwelling in Him and has full power to complete the job He is sent out of the Father to do.

Trinitarians, I would say you should find it a false teaching and not be a part with it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Ted, I totally second you on everything you said.

sky

[Ted Oplinger]

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Christ did. With words and actions too unequivocal to be missed.

Quote me one statement as clear as "I am God." That's clear. Or as clear as "... you, the only true God..." when speaking to the Father or as clear as "one God and one mediator between God and mankind, Jesus."

[Gerr]

Well, you didn't read my posts well, Jesus Christ was not another God but God the Father is in Him, He was the one and only God manifest in the flesh.

And did you read these?

"The Word was WITH God, [TWO beings, not the one & the same] and the Word was God," Jn 1:1.

ESV | ‎Heb 1:8 "But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever," - 2 DIFFERENT beings.

Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5}

[Gerr]

The veracity of what anyone says is not dependent on the person being "nice." Look at what the person says and examine his declarative statements against facts. In the case of the Bible, against the Bible.

Any adult of about 35 who is even moderately perceptive will have observed that successful con-men are always nice when it matters and always make a good impression. This at least removes the person whom you find abrasive from the ranks of the con-men.

Originally Posted By: ted

Ad hominem attacks are logical fallacies made to destroy the character of the opposition rather than the argument posed. Since you are so very fluent in being abrasive and slinging mud at the "trinitarians", that tells me your arguments are nothing more than the same nit-picking the Jews did to Christ. You want to believe what you want; you want to believe someone else's belief is stupid. That's pretty much your game. Unfortunately, the extent of your discussion seems to be declaring other people stupid, then nit-picking when your are called out.

[Gerr]

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Does that mean that Christ and the HS are false gods?

Who said they were gods? Jesus never said "I am God." When Jesus asked his disciples who they said he was and Peter said he was the son of the living God, Jesus didn't say "no, no, no Peter, you've got it wrong - I AM the living God."

Why did the Jews want to stone Him when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM??

What did Jesus mean when He said, "I AM the alpha & omega?"

What did it mean when He accepted worship?

What did He mean when He said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father?"

What did He mean when He said, "I and My Father are one?"

[Ted Oplinger]

Well, you didn't read my posts well, Jesus Christ was not another God but God the Father is in Him, He was the one and only God manifest in the flesh.

Now if you see Jesus as another God other than Yahweh King of Israel dwelling in Him, yes it can be said you are worshipping another God of whom you know not his name.

Well there is no other God to have a name so you have a problem.

[Gibs]

And the Word was God, so there is but ONE brought to view!

Yes Christ was the highest and could claim preexistance ONLY because He and the Father are truly ONE!

Jesus the man whom dwelt the Fullness of the Father was another Person but we still have but one God.

You simply do not have any scripture to uphold the trinity doctrine, it is false and a manufacture of the apostate church into Christianity.

Jesus was God with us, Emmanuel, God is the Father and only the Father is God!

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Christ in you is the Father in you! Note verse above!

Trinity is a peddling of the false! Don't buy it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.