The Trinity?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

I contend Father/Son are ONE. I contend Father and Son are BOTH YHWH Elohim - One and the Same. I contend Jesus could say to Philip, "If you see Me, you have seen the Father" because both Son and the Father are the exact representation of each other.

Quote:

I'm confused as to this statement. How can the Father and Son(Jesus Christ after the incarnation) be an exact representation of each other in all senses of the word, as you did not leave any other way to read the sentence?

It works in an Alice in Wonderland kind of place, not in reality. Maybe the following from Windmills of Your Mind will help you understand.

Quote:

Like a tunnel that you follow

To a tunnel of it’s own

Down a hollow to a cavern

Where the sun has never shone

Like a door that keeps revolving

In a half-forgotten dream

Such is the nature of the trinitarian dogma.

[John317]

....I believe John317 that you will find that there are only two here as E.G. says that the dove was " a fit emblem" of Christ and not a third being

Hope this helps

The Bible says it was the Holy Spirit-- NOT Christ-- in the form of a dove. So you are misunderstanding Ellen White's statement. She is saying that the dove is a fitting representation of Christ's character, but she is not contradicting the Bible when it says that the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove.

The 1828 Webster's Dictionary defines EMBLEM, v.t. To represent by similar qualities.

Quote:

The Father Himself answered the petition of His Son. Direct from the throne issued the beams of His glory. The heavens were opened, and upon the Saviour's head descended a dove of burnished gold--fit emblem of Him, the meek and lowly One. A heavenly light encircled the Son of man; and from the highest heaven was heard the words, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Sermons and Talks, vol. 2, page 120

Speaking of Ellen White's writings on the topic, she makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct being-- the third Person of the Godhead. In fact, she clearly teaches that the Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit feels pity for the human race and took part in the planning and the working out of the plan of salvation:

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more.CH 222

The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . .

617

{Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.-- We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {Ev 617.3}

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 268.1}

I hope this helps.

[John317]

So, we're still waiting for your equally clear quotes where Jesus and the Holy Spirit are declared gods, just like the Father.

Originally Posted By: John317

Acts 5:3-4

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? [4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

Come on, not one of your quotes say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods, just like the father is god. Your quotes are, at best, excuses for the trinitarian concept. I'm talking black on white clarity, here.

The only quote which maybe warrants a comment is:

Quote:

You have not lied to men but to God

The comment is, lie to my representative and you lie to me, although my representative and I are not the same one. The quoted "God" with the capital indicates a proper noun, therefore the Father, not one who is also (a) god. Of course, I know, the case is not the same as in the original Greek, but that is how the translators interpreted it, looking through trinitarian glasses.

You wouldn't be looking at it through your anti-Trinitarian glasses, would you?

The original Greek does not distinguish between the captial "G" or the small case "g." But it does show without question that in Acts 5: 4, it is referring to "THE God" [Gk ho theos]. See also John 21: 28 where the disciple Thomas refers to Christ as "ho theos," that is, the true God.

Acts 5: 4-5 clearly shows that lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God. Why? Because the Holy Spirit is God. As Ellen White says, the Spirit is in the fullness of the Godhead.

Quote:

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

If the Holy Spirit is not a Person, how could He be lied to? It's impossible to lie to a thing or to a power or influence.

As the rest of the Bible makes clear, the Holy Spirit is indeed a divine, living Person, the third Person of the Godhead, just as Ellen White says.

[John317]

So, we're still waiting for your equally clear quotes where Jesus and the Holy Spirit are declared gods, just like the Father.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Matthew 28:19--

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

Come on, not one of your quotes say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods, just like the father is god. Your quotes are, at best, excuses for the trinitarian concept. I'm talking black on white clarity, here.

Let's look a bit more closely at each one of these Scriptures before you dismiss them so carelessly. They deserve our attention with regard to the subject under discussion.

First, Matt 28: 19.

Are you seriously claiming that Matt 28: 19 has nothing to contribute toward an understanding of the Godhead?

Is that why some anti-Trinitarians deny its genuineness as a text of Scripture?

First of all, no one here asserts that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are "gods."

Secondly, the fact is that Matt 28: 19 shows us that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have a single NAME. What name would that be, do you think?

I believe the biblical and SOP evidence is that this NAME is "God" or "Jehovah." The Bible teaches that there is "one God," not one in number or person, but One in unity.

Thirdly, the Greek construction of Matt 28: 19 proves without question that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct, divine Persons. The Holy Spirit is thus proved to be a person and not a thing or a non-person.

Lest anyone be tempted to reject this text because of its clear support of the triune God, they should realize that all ancient manuscripts of the end of Matthew's Gospel contain Matt 28: 19. There's no manuscript evidence that it was ever any different. Also, if they are believers in Ellen White's prophetic ministry, they should also realize that Ellen White quotes the verse many times as a genuine part of the Scriptures.

In any case, the Bible's teaching on the Trinity is not dependent on Matt 28: 19. God's word is redundant. God inspired the Bible in such a way that a rejecton or change of several texts will not make any difference in the truth as it is in Jesus. This certainly applies to the doctrine of the Trinity.

[Gibs]

Some say there is 3 persoons in the Godhead, some ssy 3 Gods, what's the difference.

You may say 2 persons, since Jesus is the person the Father came to dwell in and so is God, but not another God.

But that is as far as you can go, as the Holy Spirit is God and not another person or another God.

Again, Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

If Christ is in you, the Father is also as it is the Father that is in Him.

Two persons in the Godhead, but only one God because never was and never will there be but one.

I am His witness to the following,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Some say there is 3 persoons in the Godhead, some ssy 3 Gods, what's the difference.

Makes a huge difference. The Bible teaches that we worship ONE God, not "1" God or three Gods. God is not One in number or in person, but God is One in unity, the same as a husband and wife are "one flesh." We don't worship Gods or gods. We worship One God who is manifested as Three distinct Persons.

[John317]

You may say 2 persons, since Jesus is the person the Father came to dwell in and so is God, but not another God.

But that is as far as you can go, as the Holy Spirit is God and not another person or another God.

Of course Jesus Christ is not "another God," nor is the Holy Spirit "another God." So you are right here. However, Jesus Christ is God and He is not the Father. The Holy Spirit is God, and He also is not the Father or the Son.

The Father dwells in Christ in the sense that Christ and the Father are of the same essence or substance. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of the same essence-- that of Deity-- in much the same way as all humans are of the same essence, that of humanity.

The Father and Son's shared essence is exactly what Hebrews 1: 3 and John 1: 1 (last clause) are saying. Col 2: 9 and various other verses teach the same thing.

Heb 1: 3 says that Christ is a perfect representation of the Father's person, or essence. John 1: 1 (last clause) says that what God was, the Word was. IOW, the Word was just like God the Father.

Col 2: 9 says that all of God-- Deity-- lives in Christ's body. "All of God" or "all the the fullness of the Godhead" is just that: ALL. No one-- including the Father- can have more than ALL the fullness of the Godhead.

The Scripture teaches that this "whole fullness of the Godhead" was living in Christ continually while He lived on earth, and moreover, it says that the "whole fullness of the Godhead" continues to live in Christ today. Christ is not the Father, yet Christ is God Himself.

The most ancient manuscript of Jude 5 says that "Jesus saved the people out of Egypt."

1 Cor. 10: 9 says that the Israelites "tempted Christ" in the wilderness. The Psalms say they tempted "God." This is further evidence that Christ is verily God. To Him belongs the name Yahweh, the self-existent One, just as surely as the name belongs to the Father. Carefully compare Matt 28: 19.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Some say there is 3 persoons in the Godhead, some ssy 3 Gods, what's the difference.

Makes a huge difference. The Bible teaches that we worship ONE God, not "1" God or three Gods. God is not One in number or in person, but God is One in unity, the same as a husband and wife are "one flesh." We don't worship Gods or gods. We worship One God who is manifested as Three distinct Persons.

In other words you worship a "unity" or committee.

Did Jesus Christ ever worship a "unity" or committee?

Did Jesus Christ ever worship one God as a unity of three persons?

Did Jesus Christ teach us that the "only true God" is three in numbers and persons or one in number or person? John 3:17

Is the Father of Jesus Christ one in number or three in numbers?

Did one person or three persons exalt the name of Jesus to be above every name to the glory of One God in number or person or three in numbers or persons? Philipians 2:9

[John317]

Is the Father of Jesus Christ one in number or three in numbers?

The Father is One Person in number, not three in number.

Jesus Christ is not "the Father." Neither is the Holy Spirit the Father. These divine persons are distinct. See Matt 3: 16-17; 28: 19; 2 Cor 13: 14; Jude 1: 20, 21.

[John317]

In other words you worship a "unity" or committee.

No, not a committee. The Bible doesn't view the Godhead in that way. If you believe in Ellen White's prophetic ministry, see CH 222. She defines the "Godhead" as consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and she makes it plain that these three divine Persons felt pity for the human family, and all Three planned and worked out the plan of redemption.

Have you ever sung this song of praise to God (NOT Gods or gods!)?

Praise Father,

Son,

And Holy Ghost. Amen.

[Dr. Waite]

Ted,

Quote:

I contend Father/Son are ONE. I contend Father and Son are BOTH YHWH Elohim - One and the Same. I contend Jesus could say to Philip, "If you see Me, you have seen the Father" because both Son and the Father are the exact representation of each other.

I'm confused as to this statement. How can the Father and Son(Jesus Christ after the incarnation) be an exact representation of each other in all senses of the word, as you did not leave any other way to read the sentence?

You do not need to be confused. Read Hebrews chapter 1 and 2

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Hebrews 1:1-4

"But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Hebrews 2:6-9

There is a divine Christ "Being made so much better than the angels" and a human Christ "who was made a little lower than the angels"

[John317]

Did Jesus Christ ever worship one God as a unity of three persons?

Did Jesus Christ teach us that the "only true God" is three in numbers and persons or one in number or person? John 3:17

As a Hebrew, a descendent of Abraham and David, Christ worshipped the God of the Hebrews-- Yahweh of the Old Testament. He believed in Deut 6: 4. Yahweh alone is God. Yahweh is a single God, not a single Person. The pre-existent Christ was known in the Old Testament as Yahweh, among other names and titles. Yahweh is the only true God. As our example, Christ worshipped the true God; He did not worship Himself.

Although Christ was God, He did not live on earth as God Almighty, but rather He lived among the human family as a member of the family, dependant as all of us are on the true and living God. That true and living God consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Col 1: 17 tells us that even while living on earth as a man, Christ's Deity was upholding the universe. Without Christ, the whole universe would collapse. This was true of Christ even as the man Jesus of Nazareth lay dead in the tomb. Humanity died on the cross; Deity did not die. That would have been an impossibility, since by very definition, Deity is not subject to death.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Did Jesus Christ ever worship one God as a unity of three persons?

Did Jesus Christ teach us that the "only true God" is three in numbers and persons or one in number or person? John 3:17

As a Hebrew, a descendent of Abraham and David, Christ worshipped the God of the Hebrews-- Yahweh of the Old Testament. He believed in Deut 6: 4. Yahweh alone is God. Yahweh is a single God, not a single Person. The pre-existent Christ was known in the Old Testament as Yahweh, among other names and titles. Yahweh is the only true God. As our example, Christ worshipped the true God; He did not worship Himself.

Although Christ was God, He did not live on earth as God Almighty, but rather He lived among the human family as a member of the family, dependant as all of us are on the true and living God. That true and living God consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Col 1: 17 tells us that even while living on earth as a man, Christ's Deity was upholding the universe. Without Christ, the whole universe would collapse. This was true of Christ even as the man Jesus of Nazareth lay dead in the tomb. Humanity died on the cross; Deity did not die. That would have been an impossibility, since by very definition, Deity is not subject to death.

It appears that you believe that after the Divine-human Christ died, the Divine Christ maintained a separate existence from the dead human body or the dead human Christ. Am I correct?

"Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." When he closed his eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to Heaven, as many believe, or how could his words be true--"I am not yet ascended to my Father"? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with his body, and did not wing its way to Heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with his body in the sepulcher; and when he came forth it was as a whole being; he did not have to summon his spirit from Heaven. He had power to lay down his life and to take it up again." {3SP 203.2}

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

As the rest of the Bible makes clear, the Holy Spirit is indeed a divine, living Person, the third Person of the Godhead, just as Ellen White says.

Where does Ellen White tell us to worship this "third person of the godhead"??

[John317]

There is a divine Christ "Being made so much better than the angels"...

The Bible doesn't teach that the pre-existent Christ-- the Word who is referred to in John 1: 1 as "God"-- was "made." Heb 1: 4 is accurately translated, "Having become so much better than the angels, as He has obtained [lit. "inherited"]a more excellent name than they." It is talking about Christ after the incarnation, when He had taken His place "at the right hand of the Majesty on high." Phil 2: 5-11 shows us the progression; Christ was in the form of God before becoming a human being on this earth. Then, after His resurrection and ascension, Christ returned to the glory that He had with the Father before the incarnation. Compare John 17: 5.

[John317]

Quote:

As the rest of the Bible makes clear, the Holy Spirit is indeed a divine, living Person, the third Person of the Godhead, just as Ellen White says.

Where does Ellen White tell us to worship this "third person of the godhead"??

We worship God. We can't truly worship God without worshipping all of God. When we worship the Father, we are also worshipping the Son and the Holy Spirit because they are "one."

Have you ever sung the following words? Aren't they words of worship?

Praise Father,

Son,

And Holy Ghost. Amen.

Ellen White oftens sang these words of praise and worship, and she said that she wished everyone sang such words. She also said that she prayed to these "three Worthies."

[John317]

As a Hebrew, a descendent of Abraham and David, Christ worshipped the God of the Hebrews-- Yahweh of the Old Testament. He believed in Deut 6: 4. Yahweh alone is God. Yahweh is a single God, not a single Person. The pre-existent Christ was known in the Old Testament as Yahweh, among other names and titles. Yahweh is the only true God. As our example, Christ worshipped the true God; He did not worship Himself.

Although Christ was God, He did not live on earth as God Almighty, but rather He lived among the human family as a member of the family, dependant as all of us are on the true and living God. That true and living God consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Col 1: 17 tells us that even while living on earth as a man, Christ's Deity was upholding the universe. Without Christ, the whole universe would collapse. This was true of Christ even as the man Jesus of Nazareth lay dead in the tomb. Humanity died on the cross; Deity did not die. That would have been an impossibility, since by very definition, Deity is not subject to death.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

It appears that you believe that after the Divine-human Christ died, the Divine Christ maintained a separate existence from the dead human body or the dead human Christ. Am I correct?

"The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with his body, and did not wing its way to Heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with his body in the sepulcher; and when he came forth it was as a whole being; he did not have to summon his spirit from Heaven. He had power to lay down his life and to take it up again." {3SP 203.2}

I agree with the above quote. I believe just what Ellen White says. She also says that Deity did die. In this she agrees with Scripture. Hebrews 1: 3 says that Christ has always upheld all things by the word of His power. His Deity was upholding all things even while Christ lived on earth as a man among men. He did not cease to be God when He became a man. This is in harmony with both the Bible and with the Spirit of prophecy.

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

"The Scripture teaches that this "whole fullness of the Godhead" was living in Christ continually while He lived on earth, and moreover, it says that the "whole fullness of the Godhead" continues to live in Christ today. Christ is not the Father, yet Christ is God Himself."

You left out one word.

Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

"godhead" appearance in English Bibles:

The ending "-head", is not connected with the word "head". John Wycliffe introduced the term godhede into English Bible versions in two places, and, though somewhat archaic, the term survives in modern English because of its use in three places of the Tyndale New Testament (1525) and into the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (1611). In that translation, the word was used to translate three different Greek words:

Verse Greek Romanization Type Translation Reference Vulgate 405 Wycliffe 1395 Tyndale 1525 ESV 2001

Acts 17:29 θεῖον theion adjective "divinity, deity" [1] divinum (adjective) that godli thing godhed the divine being

Romans 1:20 θειότης theiotēs noun "divinity, divine nature" [2] divinitas godhed godhed divine nature

Colossians 2:9 θεότης theotēs noun "deity" [3] divinitas the Godhed the godheed deity

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhead_in_Christianity

In Colossians 2:9 it is a noun theotēs

Does theotēs bodily refer to the body of one person or three persons? If it refers three persons as you contend, do each of these three persons have a body?

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Is the Father of Jesus Christ one in number or three in numbers?

The Father is One Person in number, not three in number.

Jesus Christ is not "the Father." Neither is the Holy Spirit the Father. These divine persons are distinct. See Matt 3: 16-17; 28: 19; 2 Cor 13: 14; Jude 1: 20, 21.

You state that the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Does Jesus Christ agree with you?

"Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth." John 4: 20-24

Did Jesus refer here to one person his Father or to two persons - one who is his Father and a separate person who is "God" when he stated "God is a Spirit"?

At the time Jesus spoke these words, did the Jews worship a God who was two persons (one person as the Father and a separate person as God who is a spirit) or a God who is only one person?

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

In other words you worship a "unity" or committee.

No, not a committee. The Bible doesn't view the Godhead in that way. If you believe in Ellen White's prophetic ministry, see CH 222. She defines the "Godhead" as consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and she makes it plain that these three divine Persons felt pity for the human family, and all Three planned and worked out the plan of redemption.

Have you ever sung this song of praise to God (NOT Gods or gods!)?

Praise Father,

Son,

And Holy Ghost. Amen.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

There is a divine Christ "Being made so much better than the angels"...

The Bible doesn't teach that the pre-existent Christ-- the Word who is referred to in John 1: 1 as "God"-- was "made." Heb 1: 4 is accurately translated, "Having become so much better than the angels, as He has obtained [lit. "inherited"]a more excellent name than they." It is talking about Christ after the incarnation, when He had taken His place "at the right hand of the Majesty on high." Phil 2: 5-11 shows us the progression; Christ was in the form of God before becoming a human being on this earth. Then, after His resurrection and ascension, Christ returned to the glory that He had with the Father before the incarnation. Compare John 17: 5.

[Dr. Waite]

John317 you stated:

Quote:

We worship God. We can't truly worship God without worshipping all of God. When we worship the Father, we are also worshipping the Son and the Holy Spirit because they are "one."

Have you ever sung the following words? Aren't they words of worship?

Praise Father,

Son,

And Holy Ghost. Amen.

Ellen White oftens sang these words of praise and worship, and she said that she wished everyone sang such words. She also said that she prayed to these "three Worthies."

Since I read this I have not sung this song:

Quote:

"And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him." "And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them." "And Jesus increased his wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." Let the brightest example the world has yet seen be your example, rather than the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted." {YI, July 7, 1898 par. 2}

[John317]

Colossians 2:9-- theoths-- theothtos-- noun "deity" [3] divinitas the Godhed the godheed deity

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhead_in_Christianity

In Colossians 2:9 it is a noun theoths

Does theoths bodily refer to the body of one person or three persons? If it refers three persons as you contend, do each of these three persons have a body?

Study carefully Thayer's Greek English Lexicon, page 288; also Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, pages 320, 321.

"Theotees. deity i.e. the state of being God, Godhead: Col 2: 9."

Thayer makes a distinction between essence [theotees] and qualities or attributes [theiotees, thios].

Vine says, "Theiotes, divinity, the R.V. rendering in Romans 1: 20 is derived from theios, and is to be distinguished from theotees, in Col 2: 9, 'Godhead.' In Rom 1: 20, the Apostle is 'declaring how much of God may be known from the revelation of Himself which He has made in nature... Yet it is not the personal God whom any man may learn to know by these aids... But in the second passage (Col 2: 9), Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fulness of absolute Godhead... He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the Apostle uses theotees to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son' (Trench, Syn. ii). Theotees indicates the Divine essence of Godhood, the Personality of God; theiotees, the attributes of God, His Divine nature and properties."

[Gibs]

The Holy Spirit is what God is and the Father only can be in Christ.

Man wrote the song. To worship the son yes, the Father is in Him, the one and only God. Then yes, to worship the Son is worship of the Father. He was the Father manifest in the flesh! God with us. What God? The Father of course!

Mr 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

He only is to be exalted.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit , even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Christ in you is the Father in you as His fulness was in Christ!

Trinity was introduced by the early apostate church and most all of Chistendom now has taken it up. Much effort has been made to modify it to be close to what it should be but is still not the truth of it.

It truly is a sad and strong deception!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Christ existed as the Son of God before the incarnation:

Of course. Christ is the eternal, self-existent, omnipotent Son of God.

He has ALWAYS stood at the right hand of the Father. See PP 38.

But when He became a man, Christ became the Son of God in a new sense. As a man, Jesus of Nazareth had a beginning, and He was literally the Son of God, God being His literal Father.