The Trinity?

[skyblue888]

Of course the Holy Spirit does not have a body the like of which the Father and the Son have but nevertheless He is a Person. Here He is said to be "walking" through these grounds. A figure of speech, of course.

sky

[Enabled]

John in reference to the following, the bias we read with is not free to ignore any part of the speakers statement and still make the statement true. You counter the following quote (from Dr. Waite) with your quote and seem content to ignore the clearly stated "the only being", I believe DR Waite has a point. Check the punctuation of your quote it contains nothing that requires "The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race" to be defined by the following sentence "and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves" as there is a comma not a semi colon or colon. They can be taken as separate statements of fact with requiring the Holy Spirit to be another being but as she more than once stated the omnipresence or agency of Christ unencumbered of the flesh. Indeed there are three agencies but not necessarily three beings, three personalities but not necessarily three individual beings.

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Those who believe the truth should remember that they are God's little children, under His training. Let them be thankful to God for His manifold mercies and be kind to one another. They have one God and one Saviour; and one Spirit-- the Spirit of Christ--is to bring unity into their ranks. {SpTB04 23.3}

Note the quote in bold defines the Spirit we are to have, not another being but a statement of our character (a spirit of kindness such as Christ has)rather than a harsh spirit. Only a spirit of kindness will unite us: the spirit of Christ.

Please note the following quotes which speak boldly to your previously posted quotes (that I said I would respond to in my last post) in the context you appear to understand them.

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When Jesus came to our world, He proclaimed Himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me" [John 14:6]. "Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man" [John 1:51]. {14MR 23.1}

Although our Lord ascended from earth to heaven, the Holy Spirit was appointed as His representative among men. "If ye love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless" [John 14:15-18]. {14MR 23.2}

Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall (although unseen by you), [THIS PHRASE WAS ADDED BY ELLEN WHITE.] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" [John 14:26]. "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will come not unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you" [John 16:7]. {14MR 23.3}

Please note in blue that the Holy Spirit was "divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof" this can be none other than a reference to Christ as the Holy Spirit as an individual never had the personality of humanity to be divested of. Carefully note her use of the word personality, as a character trait and not as another person.

Note the answer in the following from her pen to the red highlight of her pen above.

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Christ said, "It is expedient for you that I go away." No one could then have any preference because of his location or personal contact with Christ. The Saviour would be accessible to all alike, spiritually, and in this sense He would be nearer to us all than if He had not ascended on high. Now all may be equally favored by beholding Him and reflecting His character. The eye of faith sees Him ever present, in all His goodness, grace, forbearance, courtesy, and love. . . . And as we behold, we are changed into His likeness. {HP 337.2}

Note the simplicity of the following just as it reads:

“Receive the Holy Spirit, and your efforts will be successful. Christ's presence is that which gives power.”{EGW, 1NL 12}

Only when we desire to be accepted of Babylon do we insist on one interpretation at the corruption of another statement when all is to be in harmony if it is to be understood in its context of the whole.

I could continue to list such quotes for some time but I think these suffice to make the point.

[Gustave]

The Nicene Creed was an attempt to make the Trinity (a doctrine already firmly rooted in the Scripture by 325 AD) a test of Christianity - an action which is not Scriptural.

[epaminondas]

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I find 1+1+1 is not a correct thought perspective to approach the subject of Christ's nature with, in light of the Hebrew in the Old Testament. It comes from a Western attitude of segregate individualism - and has been dealt with earlier in the thread.

It's still valid. And because it's insurmountable the trinitarians want to do away with it by saying it doesn't apply. It's mathematical fact created by God. You want to make God a God of confusion by creating a trinity which is really a unity in which three and one interact in mystical ways. By saying:

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NETfree: Isaiah Chapter 55

[8] "Indeed, my plans are not like your plans, and my deeds are not like your deeds,

[9] for just as the sky is higher than the earth, so my deeds are superior to your deeds and my plans superior to your plans.

the Bible does not say what we can know about God will be incomprehensible garbage.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Note it is the Father calling Christ God.

[Enabled]

Hello Ted

Please not in your response to my use of the word "Catholicism" I was referring not to one of the many Catholic denominations but to the creeds of "Catholicism meaning traditional beliefs".

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The take home on the history within the SDA church was that EGW never made the Trinity a test of fellowship - as had nearly every Trinitarian and anti-Trinitarian congregation before. The Arian was as welcome to worship and fellowship as the Trinitarian. This was in spite of her clear convictions of the Trinity.

Of a truth Ted, Ellen White never ever mentioned or used the word Trinity in any of her letters, articles or notes. This for those that know her writings was her stated habit, she never gave anything that she didn't support credibility by repeating it and thus advancing a knowledge of it. Her husband and the founding fathers almost to a man attacked it and labeled it as heresy and she never corrected them. The freedom to believe is a character of God's kingdom, and in her day it was the same. Today to advance a non-trinitarian viewpoint is labelled as heresy and dis-fellowship of late often follows in some parts of the world church.

Please note Ted my last post as the bolded portion of your quote above indicates you believe she was Trinitarian in the true meaning of the word as others might understand it to be.

I have read much of historical church, Nicean Fathers etc. and I am surprised at the conclusions on the meaning of Arian as all his writings were expunged by the Church Fathers of history by their own proclamations. Yet their letters on record to one another reveal more clearly what he believed contrary to what they claim he believed. Why would we ever accept an opponents statement of ones belief when they made every effort to destroy his writings by their own admission. We thus have only what they claim he believed, hardly trust worthy. Straw men come to mind, espouse it and then beat it to death.(1700 years worth)

I often tire of hearing that because one believes the Word of God's claims of "only begotten" that one is Arian or Semi-Arian proclaiming Christ to be a created being. What a leap this is: my son is a created being by virtue of being my Son yet I am not his creator but his Father and indeed a created being a son of Adam. Christ is his Fathers Son not a created being but a divine being by virtue of his being brought forth of a divine being how this can be we can no more fathom than what holds the atoms of our construct together. Here I refer to what you said yourself we are often called by faith to believe, I believe that Christ is the only begotten of the Father, not as an a illustration but in fact. A fact I don't understand but am willing to accept until he takes us home and we may see more clearly. Denying it because we don't understand how it can be is the same in my mind as saying we see. Blind leading the blind.

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The Nicene Creed was an attempt to make the Trinity (a doctrine already firmly rooted in the Scripture by 325 AD) a test of Christianity - an action which is not Scriptural. The Creed was created as an agreement between the churches of Corinth, Alexandria, Ephesus, Laodicea, and all the smaller churches/provinces agreeing with them. This Creed was the misguided attempt by the churches to combat the spread of the teachings of Arius (Arianism). The attempt failed, as Arianism (in its various forms) has spent the last 1700 years waging a guerrilla war against the Trinity.

"Firmly rooted in the scripture", or did you mean to say firmly rooted in interpretation of the scriptures by said Ecclesiastes. Interesting note: the three Arian nations whose dust formed the foundation of Roman Catholicism were fierce defenders of Arius, what did they really teach and why was their destruction so necessary to the rising of the little horn. I would dare say as you noted her (speaking of Romes) survival is dependent on her continuing to destroy with words those who undermine with scripture her foundation of tradition by her own admission having no biblical foundation. She maintains today that the root and foundation of all Catholic doctrine is the Trinity in verity, without which she falls.

Please Ted take no offense at my humble attempt to put my thoughts in words as none are meant as a personal attack of you or what I perceive you believe through reading your words as this is not my intent. Thanks for taking time to consider my words and respond as you have done. Sorry if I didn't respond to all you wrote, I tried.

[skyblue888]

Why is there any need to question the doctrine of One God in Three distinct Persons? We cannot explain it but the Scriptures teach the Divinity of the Father, the Divinity of Christ, and the Divinity of the Holy Spirit.

sky

[Gibs]

As long as it is understood the representations are of the one and only same God.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Enabled]

Maybe sky its not such as you think.

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." Let the brightest example the world has yet seen be your example, rather than the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted. {YI, July 7, 1898 par. 2}

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As a witness for Christ, John entered into no controversy, no wearisome contention. He declared what he knew, what he had seen and heard. He had been intimately associated with Christ, had listened to His teachings, had witnessed His mighty miracles. Few could see the beauties of Christ's character as John saw them. For him the darkness had passed away; on him the true light was shining. His testimony in regard to the Saviour's life and death was clear and forcible. Out of the abundance of a heart overflowing with love for the Saviour he spoke; and no power could stay his words. {AA 555.2}

"That which was from the beginning," he declared, "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,

which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; . . . that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ." {AA 555.3}

So curious the absence of the Spirit but maybe this explains it somewhat.

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"From eternity there was a complete unity between the Father and the Son. They were two, yet little short of being identical; two in individuality, yet one in spirit, and heart, and character." {YI, December 16, 1897 par. 5}

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Sky this might be another reason for considering the magnitude of all we accept and teach in the battle for souls.

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“We have only one channel of approach to God. Our prayers can come to him through one name only,--that of the Lord Jesus our advocate. His Spirit must inspire our petitions. No strange fire was to be used in the censers that were waved before God in the sanctuary. So the Lord himself must kindle in our hearts the burning desire, if our prayers are acceptable to him. The Holy Spirit within must make intercessions for us, with groanings that cannot be uttered.” {EGW, RH, February 9, 1897 par. 10}.

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.“While Jesus ministers in the sanctuary above, He is still by His Spirit the minister of the church on earth.” {EGW, DA 166}

Could this be saying that to bring in another spirit is to kindle strange fire?

Christ alone according to Revelation is the one to bring the smoke of his censer before his Father, he alone receives our prayers, and he alone is our intercessor. God help us all, Babylon rules the churches.

The spirit of Christ groaned* within him as he considered the people mourning Lazarus, oh how he must groan as he prepares to awaken his church.

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*Joh 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

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Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

[Enabled]

One last thought for the night Sky a very somber one and the best reason I can think of for studying ourselves to be approved and not passing this topic off lightly.

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" False Conceptions of God Are Idolatry.--Are we worshipers of Jehovah, or of Baal? of the living God, or of idols? No outward shrines may be visible; there may be no image for the eye to rest upon; yet we may be practising idolatry. It is as easy to make an idol of cherished ideas or objects as to fashion gods of wood or stone. Thousands have a false conception of God and His attributes. They are as verily serving a false god as were the servants of Baal" (Ibid., Dec. 3, 1908). {1BC 1105.8}

[Ted Oplinger]

Well Ted the early church didn't go apostate for around 300 yrs. and then Satan stole the march on her and she became very corrupt, Martyring millions.

[joeb]

Very good post, Ted.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

The Nicene Creed was an attempt to make the Trinity (a doctrine already firmly rooted in the Scripture by 325 AD) a test of Christianity - an action which is not Scriptural.

The Trinity was an "Apostolic" Doctrine which had support in both Scripture & Sacred Tradition...

..As for the Church not having the authority to make it ( and other things ).

...A test of Christianity.

1 John 2,18

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were NOT of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us

Given that there was no New Testament in existence at this time...

...You can take this as rock solid proof that there "were tests" if one was a Christian or not.

...And as the NT didn't exist the Authority rested with the Apostlic Church which pre-existed the 'Bible'.

[Ted Oplinger]

Hello Ted

Please not in your response to my use of the word "Catholicism" I was referring not to one of the many Catholic denominations but to the creeds of "Catholicism meaning traditional beliefs".

[Gibs]

Ted, even if the young man your church disfellow shipped saw anti trinity not quite right you disfellowshipped him wrongfully.

You who are trinitarians don't have scripture to support it.

I've given you and all plenty to show there is no trinity any where about our God and Saviour. The Apostles did not teach it, prove it that they did!

Here is a good place to start.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jesus was not another God, but the one and only God there is came in Him, the Father manifest in the flesh!

3 verses here so you can't confuse the context!

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Next verse He tells you why you could no more pluck them from His hand than the Fathers.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted, even if the young man your church disfellow shipped saw anti trinity not quite right you disfellowshipped him wrongfully.

You who are trinitarians don't have scripture to support it.

I've given you and all plenty to show there is no trinity any where about our God and Saviour. The Apostles did not teach it, prove it that they did!

Here is a good place to start.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jesus was not another God, but the one and only God there is came in Him, the Father manifest in the flesh!

3 verses here so you can't confuse the context!

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Next verse He tells you why you could no more pluck them from His hand than the Fathers.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Well, Gibs, we can add reading comprehension to the growing list of skills of which you apparently need sore improvement.

How can I say this in terms you understand? Type in bold capital letters in extra large font?

My friend was NOT DISFELLOWSHIPPED!

My friend requested his name be removed from our rolls against our counsel. Once the request is made, Gibs, we are obligated to carry out the person's wishes, for love does not force anyone to remain where they do not wish to be.

I don't think I can make it any simpler that that, Gibs.

You very much appear so myopic in your personal war against whatever appears to be Trinity, that you cannot even get a simple life situation of my local church and my friend straight. If you cannot get that straight, you doubtless cannot get anything else here straight if it is remotely associated with the word, "Trinity". Pity, Gibs.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Yes Ted it is a war to fight against error. However I am glad to learn you did not disfellowship the fellow member. I peraonally would not have signed out of the fellowship because of that issue alone, but I rather imagine he saw a host of others too.

I did not have my name taken off for one but many issues that I fought with them for yrs.

Trinity had come in with the surrender to Barnhouse and Martin and then NLP, SNLP, Lab 1,2 and 3 come in and with the theology that one cannot over come and so must be saved in his sin. I heard one pastor, won't mention his name, pray that God would forgive us our sins as we had not power over them. That is not word for word his prayer but as I remember it.

That is when after fighting that and some prophecy issues for several yrs I saw I was not a welcome member.

I saw the ire of the dragon I do believe in some. One Pastor even left and went to another state as several of us got on him. Well there is more but that is not the theme here.

I will always give forth the straight testimony of the Word of God as His Spirit leads me.

I pray for all to be of the same, following Him only and His Word the truth of revealed by His Spirit, The Holy Spirit.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Yes Ted it is a war to fight against error. However I am glad to learn you did not disfellowship the fellow member. I peraonally would not have signed out of the fellowship because of that issue alone, but I rather imagine he saw a host of others too.

I did not have my name taken off for one but many issues that I fought with them for yrs.

Trinity had come in with the surrender to Barnhouse and Martin and then NLP, SNLP, Lab 1,2 and 3 come in and with the theology that one cannot over come and so must be saved in his sin. I heard one pastor, won't mention his name, pray that God would forgive us our sins as we had not power over them. That is not word for word his prayer but as I remember it.

That is when after fighting that and some prophecy issues for several yrs I saw I was not a welcome member.

I saw the ire of the dragon I do believe in some. One Pastor even left and went to another state as several of us got on him. Well there is more but that is not the theme here.

I will always give forth the straight testimony of the Word of God as His Spirit leads me.

I pray for all to be of the same, following Him only and His Word the truth of revealed by His Spirit, The Holy Spirit.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, you wage war against what you do not know nor understand. You do not understand where the roots of your theology come from.

I do not war against those I perceive as false doctrine holders; I war against the doctrines themselves, keeping in mind the person is one for whom Christ has died, and Christ has regarded doctrine as His province of conviction, not man's.

That you seem pretty proud to have chased a pastor off speaks volumes about you and your friends. Read Galatians 5:19-21 a bit closer, then compare with verses 22-26. Arius would be quite proud of you.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Well Ted, for one I will always teach different theology than yours. You I see are set and with you too many on the trinity doctrine. But you have no solid ground, I have solid ground and I like that, sinking quick sand is not the Word.

Ted, I see you as a liberal Bro. that will hold to the denomination. I have been in hope of God bringing the church back to better reform before He comes again but I see now that will not be. I found He has a Church though and EGW introduces it to her older sister,

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth." {UL 315.7}

Ted, I want to tell you that pastor taught "saved in sin" and no we didn't run him off, he run off because he did not have scripture for his theory or EGW's word on it of which where he found it agreed loved to read to all. Well!,

She had much to council on this order,

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times," June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

No Ted pride was in no way had by me or anyone of us but we where saddened that he would not come to the truth as of the Word and SOP council. The man got fiery mad and his messages from then till he left were empty.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Well Ted, for one I will always teach different theology than yours. You I see are set and with you too many on the trinity doctrine. But you have no solid ground, I have solid ground and I like that, sinking quick sand is not the Word.

[Gibs]

Ted, what I see is that any who can hold with the church now is and has to be liberal to a certain extent. A conservative SDA can not be a team player in the new church corporation church set up that has taken up "emerging church".

On the theology of saved in sin or not, the thing is if one is of the opinion one can not walk above it, he of course fails to do so.

Our pastor at that time stood up and stated I can't do it and I'm stronger than any of you! Well maybe so. Of myself I've always realized I am too weak to take on Satan.

But Christ in you or me we are more than able to come off conquerors.

We do not have any excuse to offer to fall into sin, however in case we did lapse back we still have an advocate with the Father.

The danger is high, that one sin will be committed and not repented of in time. If one sins now, fall on the knees and repent immediately.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

He, Jesus never ask us to do one thing He doesn't enable us to do.

Yes I desire to council all that time is now very short, I wonder if we have a full four years left. The world and and religion scene now tells us time is very short!

Martyrdom is going on, but is it yet with the Lord's own, some surely must be!

Let us all strive to be of the 144,000 praying for the latter rain in great abundance. It is needed so very badly as now Satan is really stepping up his last hurrah!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

You know, Mrs. White talked about a time when theology was debated on so much that the faith of the SDA Church became devoid of Jesus and His love. Hence the breath of fresh air that was 1888.

I know there is a place for getting to the root of a belief, but when it comes down to labelling people as heretics (because that is basically what has been done) where does that leave Jesus room to give us that breath of fresh air?

The nature of God is beyond us. Even with what is revealed in His word (or whatever sources you accept) it is STILL beyond us. I don't know how much of eternity it will take to grasp it. It is not worth scrappin' over.

[Guest]

Hence the breath of fresh air that was 1888.

You know, we can still breath a little bit of that air, through some of Jones' and Waggoner's writings. :)

[Ted Oplinger]

Post deleted...

Gibs, I think I will go get some fresh air. Stick around if you'd like...

Blessings,